Interested in wedding photography

firststring74 · January 7, 2009

so please don't shoot me. I am interested in learning how to shoot weddings. I have read, looked, thought about what I want and how I want to approach this endeavor. So after doing this research I want to find someone that would let me come along as a second shooter. I have no wedding experience, but I am comfortable with my camera and have some nice lens. How does one go about becoming a second shooter? How do you find someone that you think would take you along as a 2nd and you want to learn from? I am in Maryland (the northern half) and I am convenient to Baltimore and Southern PA. I can drive just about anywhere in the metro area. So any suggestions?

Scott_Quier · January 8, 2009

You could:

Make a lot of phone calls to local wedding photographers, using the phonebook and/or on-line searches for your source information. Don't expect to be very successful. Many photogs have been burned this way - they take on a 2nd shooter, teach them the trade and that person leaves to go into competition with the teacher. Not pretty.
Find yourself a local photography club/group. Be a contributing member and be serious about it. Then ask for some mentoring. I think this might be a better path to success.

There are probably other ways of getting your foot in the door; these are just the ideas that occurred to me. In any event, don't be surprised if the prime treats you like a grunt laborer and actaully forbids you to shoot at his/her event.

While you are searching for your mentor, may I gently suggest you work on composition. I looked at most of your web-site. The wedding reception, granted that was in summer of 2007, ummmm .... you bulls-eyed all but 2 or three of the photos there. Your equestrian photography has since shown some improvement. The first (and simplest) thing I could/would suggest is that you research and practice the "Rule of Thirds" and then move on from there. Practice taking photographs of people standing, talking, doing everyday things. Look for different angles on the scene rather than shooting from head level (this is one I need more work on:D). Doing so will greatly enhance the excitement and appeal in your, otherwise, very nice photographs.

firststring74 · January 8, 2009

Scott,

Thanks for that advice, I really appreciate it. I know I am not that good but I do want to learn.

I agree about that wedding. I was really just out having fun as a guest with those shots. I really should take them down, but the bride still looks at them and likes them. I think my horse photography is getting better as I go and learn from reading and practicing. I have a few people that I can use as "models" so when the weather gets better I want to try to practice on them so I can improve, post pics, gets critiques and get better.

Scott_Quier · January 8, 2009

firststring74 wrote:

Scott,

Thanks for that advice, I really appreciate it. I know I am not that good but I do want to learn.

I agree about that wedding. I was really just out having fun as a guest with those shots. I really should take them down, but the bride still looks at them and likes them. I think my horse photography is getting better as I go and learn from reading and practicing. I have a few people that I can use as "models" so when the weather gets better I want to try to practice on them so I can improve, post pics, gets critiques and get better.

While the weather is not that good - now is the time to work with your flash. Do you have a 580EX or 580EX II? You need to know how to use that both indoors (mostly) and outdoors. These two situations require a number of differences in technique.

For indoors, may I suggest you take a look at this thread, paying particular attention to Ziggy's post (#4). Take a look at the links he supplies.

Also, for indoors, investigate and learn (if you don't already know) how to shoot in manual mode with your flash in ETT-L. Works quite nicely and is very controlable. While you are at it, you might want to look into why shooting indoors in Av mode doesn't work so well.

Outdoors, it's all about balancing your flash with ambient. A very good resource is all the senior portrait postings that jeffreaux2 (Jeff) has made this year. In more than a few of them, he describes how he is using his flash to get the effects he does.

Then, there's the whole world of off-camera flash for both indoor and outdoor photography. Learn why you might want to go this route and the trade-offs involved and why this isn't a solution in some situations.

Finally, please feel free to post specific questions as you have them. LOTS of DGrinners who are more than willing to help.

alluicious · January 8, 2009

Scott_Quier wrote:

You could:
Make a lot of phone calls to local wedding photographers, using the phonebook and/or on-line searches for your source information. Don't expect to be very successful. Many photogs have been burned this way - they take on a 2nd shooter, teach them the trade and that person leaves to go into competition with the teacher. Not pretty.

wow, maybe I am just naive (really) but I don't understand this. how can a photographer get burned by teaching someone photography? Unless the student takes their previous clients, any new clients the student would have wouldn't be necessarily burning the teacher, would it? I mean, I thought that there would be plenty of work for photographers to share....can you really say yes to every job that comes your way?? When you teach, you learn again (in a sense....does that make sense?)

I am in the same situation. I would love to have a mentor to help me out. I have taken online classes, but I am more of a hands on kind of learner. I would think that some photographers would take on a challenge to teach someone a skill that they excel at, but like I said in the beginning, I may just be naive.

do other photographers on here feel the same way as Scott? I'd really be interested to know. sorry if I am taking over this discussion, should I start another one? don't want to step on any toes.

Swartzy · January 8, 2009

alluicious wrote:

[/list]wow, maybe I am just naive (really) but I don't understand this. how can a photographer get burned by teaching someone photography? Unless the student takes their previous clients, any new clients the student would have wouldn't be necessarily burning the teacher, would it? I mean, I thought that there would be plenty of work for photographers to share....can you really say yes to every job that comes your way?? When you teach, you learn again (in a sense....does that make sense?)

I am in the same situation. I would love to have a mentor to help me out. I have taken online classes, but I am more of a hands on kind of learner. I would think that some photographers would take on a challenge to teach someone a skill that they excel at, but like I said in the beginning, I may just be naive.

do other photographers on here feel the same way as Scott? I'd really be interested to know. sorry if I am taking over this discussion, should I start another one? don't want to step on any toes.

Not naive.....possibly a little unrealistic to a point. One has to understand, it takes a seasoned veteran a great deal of time to learn things....just like someone beginning. To simply hand out that information for FREE, train an individual then have that person go after the mentor's business just isn't real smart. I'm not suggesting that mentoring isn't a good thing but for some, they expect it given on a silver platter. Spend some time learning techniques like Scott has suggested before approaching a professional. Having a pro teach one the basics makes no sense....not unless they are hired for pay to become an instructor.

jeffreaux2 · January 8, 2009

Many of the better known outfits in my area require all employees to sign a non-compete agreement as a requirement for hiring. They don't just do this for photographers, but also the teenagers they hire that work as assistants and those that do post production work .

Of course, because of the right to work laws of our state the agreement probably wouldn't hold water in a courtroom....but still....it's an intimidator to the younger people.

...another thing is this.....if a photographer is willing to pay an assistant for an event, he/she has likely determined that he cannot cover the event alone. In this case, he needs another capable photographer to share the workload. Not really a classroom scenario.

I was roped into my first wedding because I wanted to borrow a long lens from someone. It was lent, but with strings attatched. Your first wedding may come to you in much the same way. What will increase the odds are having good solid examples of your photography available for folks to browse. In other words.....shoot, shoot, shoot.

alluicious · January 8, 2009

got it!
thanks Swartzy and Jeff for your comments. I understand more now of what you are referring to. I guess I was looking at it in the sense that as I learn, it would be free labor for the teacher (I wasn't thinking that they would pay me). Sorta like in nursing school, when the local hospital agrees to pay for your education or help out but you then have to turn around and give them 2 years internship with them.....(does that make sense?)

guess I will just have to keep practicing on my own and find people who do this as a hobby to give me pointers and lots of research.

thanks again.

heatherfeather · January 9, 2009

Another option: hang around here and read and post for critique like crazy.

angevin1 · January 9, 2009

Hi Christina,

Another nurse here. Welcome! I think Scott, Swartzy, et al had a lot of great thoughts there. Jeff especially with the Shoot, shoot, shoot thing!

Looking at your port I sense that you are not getting intimate with your shots. Weddings, and people photography is very intimate. You often have to get close, shoot close and be comfortable and send a comforting vibe to them within a very intimate space. Being a nurse, your probably very autodidactic, and thats a good thing too! But I don't see anything wrong with being free labor either...and you may have to do a bit of that. For instance I have only charged twice for sitting fees since I started...because I wanted the op, or the chance to capture the photos: the experience, the photos themselves and experience in toto.

There are probably as many ways to go about this as there are suggestions, but vocing your thoughts here and assimilating the suggesitons are a good thing!!

good luck~~tom

ChatKat · January 9, 2009

heatherfeather wrote:

Another option: hang around here and read and post for critique like crazy.

While much of photography is specialized, you can get really good doing portraits, animals, sports and architectural details. Learn lighting and to do close ups. Learn business skills because they are just as valuable as the shooting and lighting, although you can hire people to help with some of it.

I've been shooting in one form or other since 1971 and I learn new stuff everyday.

Scott_Quier · January 9, 2009

alluicious wrote:

thanks Swartzy and Jeff for your comments. I understand more now of what you are referring to. I guess I was looking at it in the sense that as I learn, it would be free labor for the teacher (I wasn't thinking that they would pay me). Sorta like in nursing school, when the local hospital agrees to pay for your education or help out but you then have to turn around and give them 2 years internship with them.....(does that make sense?)

guess I will just have to keep practicing on my own and find people who do this as a hobby to give me pointers and lots of research.

thanks again.

Whether the 2nd is paid or not, it's definitely NOT free labor. Consider - the learning acquired by the "student" is not so acquired through osmosis. It takes real effort on the part of the teacher

To plan not just the event but the lessons to be learned,
Prepare materials and examples to highlight the important points
Work the event while teaching
Anticipating the actions of the student and preventing mis-haps
and other things, etc

Now then, if you could get an agreement with the "student" to perform in that capacity for a period of time, at a less than scale rate (as payback for the above), it might make sense for a lot of photographers.

I've heard it's not uncommon for some of the seasoned vets to actually charge the "student" for the priviledge of working an event in a learning capacity.

All that having been said, I've mentored two people and it's worked out quite well for me in both cases. In the first, she started her own business but she lives some 60 - 90 minutes from me. It's often the case where one of us will have a wedding and the other will second. We did one weekend, I had a Saturday event and she had a Sunday. She worked for me on Sat and I for her on Sun.

The second case is still in a state of flux but I have high hopes.

Blurmore · January 9, 2009

I'm not sure how many other people here had a LONG experience as an assistant. But I can tell you of my experience which included 5 years of assisting. I managed a retail portrait studio for 2 years, full time rewarding but crappy salary job. When my first son was born I decided that I wanted to stay home with him full time (my wife was at the beginning of a career patch which would eventually lead us to a reasonably comfortable 1 salary income). I wanted to continue to work as a photographer, and weddings and events seemed like an obvious choice. I did NOT want to just jump into it with both feet. It was harder to jump in then anyway (2001), as all the serious professionals used medium format equipment. A guy who worked at the studio told me he used to assist a professional photographer, and that the guy was a stand up guy, but shooting weddings was not for him. So I called him up, told him my experience, got an interview with him, and started assisting him (for pay) on his stepdaughter's wedding that summer. Learning the off camera lighting style he used, the back loading, second and third flash placement and metering for receptions and all that took me 3 or 4 jobs to really learn before ever looking in the viewfinder of the Hasselblad. Studying the posing, and style tips were important, but not ultimately because I never intended to produce a style like his. I worked for that photographer for 2 years for 150 dollars per job, by the end that first summer he had me shoot my first weddings on my own, one which went ok, and the other I would consider a qualified disaster. He was a traditionalist in sales, and advertising, and everything else, he ran a very high overhead business, and made a ton off of reprints and albums. Assisting is hard work, sometimes demeaning work, many photographers have big egos, some are passive aggressive, the work is stressful. Sometimes we worked for an outfit in DC as subcontractors, they used the same equipment, lighting technique, and similar posing techinques. Sometimes I would shoot video (which I hated). One day my boss sent me out on a Video job in DC and the photographer on the job was a guy from the company in DC we occasionally worked for. I introduced myself, and loaded a couple of his backs during down time (his assistant at the time was inept) and by the end of the job I had an informal agreement to assist him. I assisted for that company for 3 years, and got to assist and photograph premier DC social events, weddings, concerts, political functions (not making much more than I did before). The experience was invaluable.

Today, things have changed. These guys used a LOT of equipment, basically full studio light in the field. Assistants were basically porters, who got to learn, set up, and possibly shoot 35mm. Very few people run THAT kind of setup, even the old guys have lightened up on the equipment, (and the assistants). Do NOT offer to shoot for free, or shadow, or tag along. I would never let someone do that with me, and I have never worked for free, your effort is worth something. On the other hand, you need to make your effort worth something. You need to be fully on, paying attention, professionally dressed, and be willing to take direction without an attitude. I had one rule when I was assisting, and that was that no one was allowed to call me stupid, but almost everything else was fair game (especially if I screwed up). The work is serious, it CAN be fun, but you are doing something which can't be done again, and can destroy someones career if done poorly. My suggestion as to you finding a job, is to go to the larger places in your area, Conte/Perskie and tell them you want to assist. Have samples, show enthusiasm, have a resume and references. They might send you out on a couple of jobs and you'll get a feel for if it is right for you or not.

alluicious · January 9, 2009

this thread has been really helpful to me, even though I'm not the original poster. My problem is that I can read and retain information and pass tests just fine (for online courses) but I really need help translating that information into the real deal on the camera. That's where it just looks like chinese to me.

I'm interested in doing portraits stuff too, so I will start posting some pics in the various forums and see if I can learn how to better improve what I'm doing.

Blurmore...I too am in the DC area and was wondering what you would suggest I do in order to get some good training. I am thinking about working for a portrait studio, just to get some basic knowledge. Should I approach photographers that aren't necessarily in my local area (I'm in NOVA) so that they don't feel threatened that I will 'burn' them later and be willing to mentor me?

I think DG should start a mentoring program and pair people up that are relatively close but not to close to compete!

(seriously!)

thanks again!

divamum · January 9, 2009

A former voice student of mine got her wedding business started when she took a community college course - the teacher started mentoring her (and a couple of the others in the class who showed interest and aptitude), invited them to second shoot when there was an opportunity, and with his encouragement in less than a year the three students had formed their own business specialising in 2- and 3-shooter PJ-style weddings and engagements. They've been quite successful, I believe - they're pretty busy!

(As an aside, she's one of the reasons I started exploring digital SLRs - she'd come for lessons with some of her pictures to show me, I was wowed (she's got a wonderfully energetic style that I LOVE) and it all re-sparked my own interest in photography and I vowed to move from 35mm at the first opportunity. That was 3 years ago but it's where I've wound up now all began in my mind!)

alluicious · January 9, 2009

divamum wrote:

A former voice student of mine got her wedding business started when she took a community college course - the teacher started mentoring her (and a couple of the others in the class who showed interest and aptitude), invited them to second shoot when there was an opportunity, and with his encouragement in less than a year the three students had formed their own business specialising in 2- and 3-shooter PJ-style weddings and engagements. They've been quite successful, I believe - they're pretty busy!

Do you know what class she took? was it basic photography, like introduction to photography? I don't want to waste my money on a class that is too basic but I don't want to get into a class that's too advanced either......

(BTW, that info was really encouraging)

Blurmore · January 9, 2009

alluicious wrote:

this thread has been really helpful to me, even though I'm not the original poster. My problem is that I can read and retain information and pass tests just fine (for online courses) but I really need help translating that information into the real deal on the camera. That's where it just looks like chinese to me.

I'm interested in doing portraits stuff too, so I will start posting some pics in the various forums and see if I can learn how to better improve what I'm doing.

Blurmore...I too am in the DC area and was wondering what you would suggest I do in order to get some good training. I am thinking about working for a portrait studio, just to get some basic knowledge. Should I approach photographers that aren't necessarily in my local area (I'm in NOVA) so that they don't feel threatened that I will 'burn' them later and be willing to mentor me?

I think DG should start a mentoring program and pair people up that are relatively close but not to close to compete! (seriously!)

thanks again!

It is going to be tough to get a job at a retail portrait studio this time of year, but their turnover is very high. They are good experience for what they are, and a friend who I work with occasionally went from managing one to a 1/4 million dollar a year event photography business in a matter of years. The company I sub-contract for has a LOT of jobs in the NOVA area, if you PM me your experience & equipment I can put you in touch with their recruiter if you are ready.

JohnBiggs · January 12, 2009

Advertise or look for people advertising on Craigslist for second shooters/assistants. I have seen people doing both on craigslist. Just be carefull on there and understand what you are getting into.

gl

JohnBiggs · January 12, 2009

Ohh.. and for some reason I don't think a retail portrait studio is going to teach much as far as lighting and cameras. Maybe just teach you a bunch of formulated poses for families and children.

I'm just guessing here, but thats what I would assume.

Blurmore · January 12, 2009

JohnBiggs wrote:

Ohh.. and for some reason I don't think a retail portrait studio is going to teach much as far as lighting and cameras. Maybe just teach you a bunch of formulated poses for families and children.

I'm just guessing here, but thats what I would assume.

The basic skills for posing families are HIGHLY transferable to shooting weddings. That, getting the knack of making people comfortable in front of the camera, and taking control of a situation (which is also needed in a portrait studio setting) are the things I see newbie wedding photogs struggling with the most. While it may seem that a retail environment would not be good practice, I can tell you that it is. Yeah you might not be moving the lights much when your boss is there...but when they aren't (so long as you remember where everything goes) you can do and practice as much as you want. I did.

Interested in wedding photography

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