Couple Biz questions

Candid Arts · January 22, 2009

Just curious to a couple things...

1) Do any of the photographers here that shoot weddings, events, family/senior portraits, model photography, etc... on a regular basis have some sort of contract that is signed? If so, is it always necessary to have one? What is said within it? Is this something you'd want even for shooting a friend or family members wedding and/or special event, family portraits, etc...?

2) When one does a wedding, how many photographers do you usually have? I've shot three weddings while working for another company and for each wedding we have had three photographers, all getting different angles of different things obviously. I personally could not see a wedding done (small or large) without having at least two photographers. There is just only so much that one person can see and it's only through that one person's lens that anything will be seen. There is just so much more going on all at the same time that I would imagine one photographer couldn't be at all angles of every subject matter.

3) Once you've done some sort of a shoot for someone, what kind of time frame is expected to have their photos ready for them to view and purchase online? How long do you have them available online for purchase (assuming your set up is prints don't come with the package of shooting the event). Do you then get permission from the people to use some of their photos for advertising for your own site (with promise obviously not to sell, just for viewing to showcase what you have done and can do)? What do you do with the photos once they've bought all they want? Store them on a hard drive somewhere forever? Delete them? Burn to DVD's and store somewhere?

4) When shooting a wedding or event, what are the expectations from the customer of the photographer(s)? Quantity of photos...timely editing and posting process...level of communication...be a behind the scenes photographer or leader of the day (by that I mean like making it known that YOU are there to TAKE PICTURES of everyone that is there)...does a customer usually want the non-people pictures from a wedding (by this I mean like photos of the flowers, silver and eating ware, guestbook, rings, wedding certificate, graduation certificate, etc...)?

I think that is about all I got right now, so any info on any or all of these would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks everyone!

I ask because my room mate and I are going to school right now for photography (art school in DT Portland, OR). It is a very conceptual school and conceptual art is not what we do. We are thinking about ditching it and just taking some photography classes at PCC, or PSU or something of the like, just to more familiarize ourselves with our equipment and it's possibilities, as well as technique, edting processes and ideas, etc... We are thinking of investing some money into advertising to try and get the ball rolling and doing shoots other than for family and friends and trying to get this "business" going. Also...on that note...would we need a business liscense and if so what does it take to get one? So before we get into trying to get clients, we wanted to have everything in place and ready to go.

Again thanks for any comments and ideas.

Candid Arts · January 28, 2009

No body got anything for this?

BradfordBenn · January 28, 2009

I am not a photographer, but figured I would jump in. I would say the following:

1) You need something in writing any times money is going to change hands. If you don't how does one know the price that is going to be charged?
2) In the documentation you can outline what is going to be provided and in what type of timeline.

Basically I look at it is that someone is buying your time, skills, and services, you need to document what they are getting for the money they are paying.

Cygnus Studios · January 28, 2009

Candid Arts wrote:

1) Do any of the photographers here that shoot weddings, events, family/senior portraits, model photography, etc... on a regular basis have some sort of contract that is signed? If so, is it always necessary to have one? What is said within it? Is this something you'd want even for shooting a friend or family members wedding and/or special event, family portraits, etc...?

I don't do weddings, but a wedding is like any event. The contract has to be done prior to the work being performed. Every aspect of the arrangement should spelled out in the contract.
When shooting models, depending on the use of the image a release will be necessary. Personally, I always use a release when working with models.
Book mark this page it has all sorts of useful info.

Candid Arts wrote:

2) When one does a wedding, how many photographers do you usually have? I've shot three weddings while working for another company and for each wedding we have had three photographers, all getting different angles of different things obviously. I personally could not see a wedding done (small or large) without having at least two photographers. There is just only so much that one person can see and it's only through that one person's lens that anything will be seen. There is just so much more going on all at the same time that I would imagine one photographer couldn't be at all angles of every subject matter.

This depends on the photographer and the client. If the client wants to pay for 2 or more, they should have that option.

Candid Arts wrote:

3) Once you've done some sort of a shoot for someone, what kind of time frame is expected to have their photos ready for them to view and purchase online? How long do you have them available online for purchase (assuming your set up is prints don't come with the package of shooting the event). Do you then get permission from the people to use some of their photos for advertising for your own site (with promise obviously not to sell, just for viewing to showcase what you have done and can do)? What do you do with the photos once they've bought all they want? Store them on a hard drive somewhere forever? Delete them? Burn to DVD's and store somewhere?

The time frame will depend on the discussion with the client, and spelled out in the contract. There are no set rules. For small events, I can usually have the images available online in a matter of days. These password protected galleries will be online for additional photo purchases or viewing for 1 month. They can have it longer for an agreed upon price in the contract.
I try to have the prints to them within two weeks (depending on the pro lab schedule).
Depending on the client and work, I will keep some images with their permission to use for portfolio purposes. This is up to the client as they are paying for the images.
I specify with the client that I will keep a backup of the original images for a period of 1 year (unless they wish to pay for a longer period of time). After that, I hit delete.

Candid Arts wrote:

4) When shooting a wedding or event, what are the expectations from the customer of the photographer(s)? Quantity of photos...timely editing and posting process...level of communication...be a behind the scenes photographer or leader of the day (by that I mean like making it known that YOU are there to TAKE PICTURES of everyone that is there)...does a customer usually want the non-people pictures from a wedding (by this I mean like photos of the flowers, silver and eating ware, guestbook, rings, wedding certificate, graduation certificate, etc...)?

These are things that are worked out prior to the deal being done, and spelled out in the contract. I have had some very weird requests from clients, and as long as the image is not going to hurt any person in the image, I will comply. A few clients have asked for the photos of people eating, blinking, sneezing, that sort of thing. Normally these are not included with the final product given to the client.
For my part, there are no limits to the amount of images or what kinds of images they can have. It is simply a matter of price.

In the end, just about anything legal and moral is fair game. Just make sure that everything is crystal clear and written in the contract. Cover your butt, exceed their expectations and you will be a success.

catspaw · January 29, 2009

"Business and Legal Forms for Photographers"

"Pricing Photography, 3rd edition"

both from Amazon, buy them!

dogwood · January 29, 2009

I'm a Portland photographer. Before you start up your business, do your research. The market here is VERY crowded with photographers and the competition is fierce. Who will your clients be? Specifically. And how much and how often will they pay you? In other words, what's your cost of doing business and how will you cover that? Will you be able to cover that if a steady client goes out of business?

I personally get everybody I shoot (with the exception of politicians at public events) to sign model releases that give me permission to use and sell their photos. I even do this when I shoot family members. And my wife. Who is now my ex-wife so I'm mighty glad I have releases from her!

In Oregon, if you do business under your own name, you do not need a business license.

You might consider some of the offerings from the SBA (Small Business Administration) on running your own business. They frequently hold classes at both PSU and in the Lloyd Center area.

dogwood · January 29, 2009

Couple more comments-- just a brief look at your website I would assume you are in Juneau, not Portland. In other words, if I was looking for a Portland photographer and ran across your site, I'd close it says your hometown is Juneau and you have many galleries of Alaska images. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anything that mentioned you're in Portland?

Also, I'd say ditch the watermarks on the images on your services page. They look kind of trashy and confusing. Most pros only watermark event galleries-- not their pricing pages. It's pretty unlikely someone would swipe a web sized image off your services page.

Cygnus Studios · January 29, 2009

dogwood wrote:

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anything that mentioned you're in Portland?

The location under the avatar says Portland...

Candid Arts · January 29, 2009

dogwood wrote:

I'm a Portland photographer. Before you start up your business, do your research. The market here is VERY crowded with photographers and the competition is fierce. Who will your clients be? Specifically. And how much and how often will they pay you? In other words, what's your cost of doing business and how will you cover that? Will you be able to cover that if a steady client goes out of business?

I personally get everybody I shoot (with the exception of politicians at public events) to sign model releases that give me permission to use and sell their photos. I even do this when I shoot family members. And my wife. Who is now my ex-wife so I'm mighty glad I have releases from her!

In Oregon, if you do business under your own name, you do not need a business license.

You might consider some of the offerings from the SBA (Small Business Administration) on running your own business. They frequently hold classes at both PSU and in the Lloyd Center area.

Thank you very much. All great information.

dogwood wrote:

Couple more comments-- just a brief look at your website I would assume you are in Juneau, not Portland. In other words, if I was looking for a Portland photographer and ran across your site, I'd close it says your hometown is Juneau and you have many galleries of Alaska images. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anything that mentioned you're in Portland?

Also, I'd say ditch the watermarks on the images on your services page. They look kind of trashy and confusing. Most pros only watermark event galleries-- not their pricing pages. It's pretty unlikely someone would swipe a web sized image off your services page.

I'm originally from Juneau, but now live in Portland and am going to school here. I will get rid of the watermarks on my services page, that is something I've been meaning to do, but just keep forgetting.

Cygnus Studios wrote:

The location under the avatar says Portland...

Yeup.

Candid Arts · January 29, 2009

Another question. If a customer would rather just buy the rights to the photos, or just a single full size photo, what do you guys normally sell the rights to a photo for? And...if they want to buy the rights to All the photos taken (well...the good ones and ones you've edited and such and actually kept), how do you say how much that is? Go by x amount per photo times y amount of photos? Or is it just an average price? or less than 20 photos x price, less than 50 photos y price, less than 100 photos z price, etc...?

Thanks for everyone's help, it has been extremely informational.

Candid Arts · January 29, 2009

dogwood wrote:

In Oregon, if you do business under your own name, you do not need a business license.

By this I'm guessing you mean if your business name is, firstname lastname photography (for example) and not like what mine is, Candid Arts Photography?

dogwood · January 30, 2009

Cygnus Studios wrote:

The location under the avatar says Portland...

And just how would someone going to his website know to search dgrin, find his avatar, and check the location?

dogwood · January 30, 2009

Candid Arts wrote:

By this I'm guessing you mean if your business name is, firstname lastname photography (for example) and not like what mine is, Candid Arts Photography?

Yes, exactly. The idea is that you're less likely to scam customers if using your own name 'cause they'll know who scammed them. "Candid Arts" would techinically have to be registered as your business name so that any potential customers could check with local authorities to find out exactly who owns and runs the company.

dogwood · January 30, 2009

Candid Arts wrote:

Another question. If a customer would rather just buy the rights to the photos, or just a single full size photo, what do you guys normally sell the rights to a photo for? And...if they want to buy the rights to All the photos taken (well...the good ones and ones you've edited and such and actually kept), how do you say how much that is? Go by x amount per photo times y amount of photos? Or is it just an average price? or less than 20 photos x price, less than 50 photos y price, less than 100 photos z price, etc...?

Thanks for everyone's help, it has been extremely informational.

Well, first off, you probably don't want to sell the "rights" 'cause that sounds like you're selling your copyright. You don't want to do that because then YOU lose the right to use those images without getting permission from the copyright owner (which would not be you if you sell the rights).

One of the absolute best photography business blogs out there is John Harrington. You will glean more info there in a week than you can imagine.

Check it out http://photobusinessforum.blogspot.com/

He also has written an excellent book called "Best Business Practices for Photographers". It will answer every question you have posted here

MaryBoo · February 3, 2009

Don't ditch the school, change the school. To be successful you need classes on starting up and running a small business, in addition to all of those photography classes you want to take.:D

Candid Arts · February 3, 2009

MaryBoo wrote:

Don't ditch the school, change the school. To be successful you need classes on starting up and running a small business, in addition to all of those photography classes you want to take.:D

problem with the school is it is really conceptually based. Which I don't do conceptual art at all (really...). I would like to take some photo classes at a community college or something, but this is just an art school. no business stuff, just conceptual/theory/history crap. And drawing...i have to draw for a photography degree, it sucks. I can't draw. I'm in a beg. B&W photo class now, learning dark room stuff. That's awesome as I've never done it before, but all the techy camera stuff I already know, that we've learned so far at least. I just developed my first roll of film last friday and made my first 8x10 prints saturday, it was SO much fun.

That was a rant, sorry. anyways, that's why we are thinking about leaving the school, not really my type of art. I just want to learn the camera inside and out, and maybe some compositional techniques and what not. It's just too conceptual for me, I can't stand it. I don't get it. I don't make it. yeah.

takeflightphoto · February 9, 2009

not crap

Candid Arts wrote:

... just conceptual/theory/history crap...

As a very wise professor told me (and a group of young, highly technically talented rock and jazz musicians) at the beginning of my first music theory class in college, circa 1968: "You really can't break the rules, unless you know what the rules are. So learn Bach."

Thanks to him for getting us to learn those rules, as we all went on to very successful careers (some are still at it) in jazz, rock, film music, and studio work.

My advice to you, oh young one, is this....don't call it crap. Its the foundation of what you think you want to do. Don't try to shortcut your way to success by ignoring the value of a broad education and training.

Best of luck.

Candid Arts · February 9, 2009

takeflightphoto wrote:

As a very wise professor told me (and a group of young, highly technically talented rock and jazz musicians) at the beginning of my first music theory class in college, circa 1968: "You really can't break the rules, unless you know what the rules are. So learn Bach."

Thanks to him for getting us to learn those rules, as we all went on to very successful careers (some are still at it) in jazz, rock, film music, and studio work.

My advice to you, oh young one, is this....don't call it crap. Its the foundation of what you think you want to do. Don't try to shortcut your way to success by ignoring the value of a broad education and training.

Best of luck.

That's my point though, the theory and conceptual stuff isn't at all what I want to do. History I could see...I guess... But history of photography, not paintings.

catspaw · February 9, 2009

Candid Arts wrote:

That's my point though, the theory and conceptual stuff isn't at all what I want to do. History I could see...I guess... But history of photography, not paintings.

Ah, but the history of photography starts in the history of paintings.

takeflightphoto · February 9, 2009

Candid Arts wrote:

That's my point though, the theory and conceptual stuff isn't at all what I want to do. History I could see...I guess... But history of photography, not paintings.

And Bach was not at all what I wanted to do either. But once I knew Bach, I could understand Coltrane. Once I knew Mozart, Stockhausen became my friend.

Maybe Rembrandt or Degas can help you with all that pricey equipment in your list there, grasshopper.

Maybe you should take a spin up to Seattle and look up Art Wolfe. He's got a pile of those white lenses, but he also has a mind that encompasses history, philosophy, natural science....all the things that give his photography legitimacy. Or you can plow on and in a few years find out how much all you DON'T know really makes a difference.

Again...good luck.

Candid Arts · February 9, 2009

catspaw wrote:

Ah, but the history of photography starts in the history of paintings.

takeflightphoto wrote:

And Bach was not at all what I wanted to do either. But once I knew Bach, I could understand Coltrane. Once I knew Mozart, Stockhausen became my friend.

Maybe Rembrandt or Degas can help you with all that pricey equipment in your list there, grasshopper.

Maybe you should take a spin up to Seattle and look up Art Wolfe. He's got a pile of those white lenses, but he also has a mind that encompasses history, philosophy, natural science....all the things that give his photography legitimacy. Or you can plow on and in a few years find out how much all you DON'T know really makes a difference.

Again...good luck.

Damn you's...starting to make me re-think my decision. Well I guess that what I'm getting at is that this school's photographic (along with all other art forms) are just extremely conceptually based. I understand your ideas on history, natural science, etc... And maybe a different school at another time might work better for my work. I guess that's what I'm saying. I understand that your aformentioned stuff would benefit my photography, I just don't think that this conceptual school is the best place...for me...to do this.

Couple Biz questions

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