When is a release needed?

rwmj

I am planning to do some shooting in a shopping mall and people will inevitably appear in the pictures though probably in an incidental way rather than a featured fashion. My interest is primarily the spaces and the use of it.
It is my understanding that if the pictures are not used for commerial purposes, as in advertisements, that a release is not needed.
Any alternative understandings on this issue?

Thanks,
Roy

RBrogen

Roy,

Most malls will not allow you to shoot photos inside their facility because they are actually private property. I found this out when I thought it would be nice to try out my wide lens last Christmas and was very quickly found on security cameras and ask to put the camera away. As for releases, there's some great information about this on the PPA website.

-Randy

ChatKat

Malls
I've used malls in my photography and have not asked permission. However, I am very careful to make sure that there are no visibly recongnized signage or identification of location or stores or brands in the photos.

If there were, you would need a property release.

I try to look like family just taking snaps of subjects - albeit with a huge camera and a flash with me. I also try to be quite low key. I was asked what I was doing once and said I am taking family photos and they left me alone. The stores did not mind in the least because I told them I was just visiting and was it okay? Bonus for buying something!

Nikolai

I have been "asked out" from the malls more than once, enough to stop shooting inside. You can be OK with a compact P&S and a bunch of teens around, but if you are alone and lug a professionally-looking equipment (god forbid a tripod) you can rest assured security will be breathing on your neck in 5 min or less.

RBrogen

Nikolai wrote:

I have been "asked out" from the malls more than once, enough to stop shooting inside. You can be OK with a compact P&S and a bunch of teens around, but if you are alone and lug a professionally-looking equipment (god forbid a tripod) you can rest assured security will be breathing on your neck in 5 min or less.

Nikolai: I had the same warm welcome when I shot in my local mall. I just got my wide 16-35 L glass and wanted to take some shots of the Christmas decorations in the mall. I had my Lowepro 200 bag on my back and within 5 minutes of taking my camera out, security was on me saying "Hey No Pictures!!!". I even went to the information booth to ask if I could get permission and they said I'd have to write to "The Simon Group" to request it and it would most likely be denied because people ask all the time and they have an issue with liability or something being caught on camera. That's when I came back and did some more reasearch and found that most malls are actually private property and thus can deny your request and ask you to leave.

rwmj

RBrogen wrote:

Nikolai: I had the same warm welcome when I shot in my local mall. I just got my wide 16-35 L glass and wanted to take some shots of the Christmas decorations in the mall. I had my Lowepro 200 bag on my back and within 5 minutes of taking my camera out, security was on me saying "Hey No Pictures!!!". I even went to the information booth to ask if I could get permission and they said I'd have to write to "The Simon Group" to request it and it would most likely be denied because people ask all the time and they have an issue with liability or something being caught on camera. That's when I came back and did some more reasearch and found that most malls are actually private property and thus can deny your request and ask you to leave.

Thanks to you all of you for your responses.
I may experiment a bit and see what happens in a mall but it doesn't sound promising as a place I might reliably expect to find uncomplicated opportunities for photographing.

Nikolai

RBrogen wrote:

Nikolai: I had the same warm welcome when I shot in my local mall. I just got my wide 16-35 L glass and wanted to take some shots of the Christmas decorations in the mall. I had my Lowepro 200 bag on my back and within 5 minutes of taking my camera out, security was on me saying "Hey No Pictures!!!". I even went to the information booth to ask if I could get permission and they said I'd have to write to "The Simon Group" to request it and it would most likely be denied because people ask all the time and they have an issue with liability or something being caught on camera. That's when I came back and did some more reasearch and found that most malls are actually private property and thus can deny your request and ask you to leave.

Yeah, totally my experience!
As I said, the best way to approach this is to get an unsupsicios cover in form of a family or better yet kids and then use some innocent-looking but actually capable p&s (e.g. G10). However, no way to use off-camera lights and such without risking of having the conflict

dogwood

If possible, get a release from everyone in a photograph for every single shoot. Yeah, it may sound a little excessive but you never know when someone might want to buy that photo.

Case in point-- I shot a portrait of a local store owner two years ago. She hired me and I wasn't really planning to use any photos in my own port, but I still had her sign a release.

This fall, a Conde Nast (yeah, THAT Conde Nast) rep called me up and wanted to use one of the photos in a text book about retail business! It took us about five seconds to negotiate a price since I knew I already had a release.

Oh-- and more recently I learned that a model I've shot a number of times made the cut for a popular reality t.v. show. Will she win? Who knows but I do have releases for every time I've shot her... just in case.

Nikolai

dogwood wrote:

If possible, get a release from everyone in a photograph for every single shoot. Yeah, it may sound a little excessive but you never know when someone might want to buy that photo.

Case in point-- I shot a portrait of a local store owner two years ago. She hired me and I wasn't really planning to use any photos in my own port, but I still had her sign a release.

This fall, a Conde Nast (yeah, THAT Conde Nast) rep called me up and wanted to use one of the photos in a text book about retail business! It took us about five seconds to negotiate a price since I knew I already had a release.

Oh-- and more recently I learned that a model I've shot a number of times made the cut for a popular reality t.v. show. Will she win? Who knows but I do have releases for every time I've shot her... just in case.

Qarik

by the way it's always good to get release when possible but anywhere public is fair game and perfectly legal. No one can sue you for taking picture of them on the street. Only in places where folks might a reasonable expcation to privacy is not okay.

evoryware

call the mall administrator in advance to get permission.

Nikolai

evoryware wrote:

call the mall administrator in advance to get permission.

Did you actually try it?

BMW Kurt

RBrogen wrote:

Roy,

Most malls will not allow you to shoot photos inside their facility because they are actually private property.
-Randy

Not only are malls private property but in this day and time they are also targets. I too have been asked not to photograph in malls and was told it was because of the terrorist's threats. About one year after 9/11 I was shooting in a mall with film and actually had to turn the cassette over to the rent-a-cops!

BMW Kurt

Thought this might add a little to the subject.

<object width="400" height="174">


<embed src="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=3259100&server=vimeo.com&show_title=1&show_byline=1&show_portrait=0&color=&fullscreen=1&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="400" height="174"></object>
Photographers Rights UK from Nick Turpin on Vimeo.

dogwood

BMW Kurt wrote:

. About one year after 9/11 I was shooting in a mall with film and actually had to turn the cassette over to the rent-a-cops!

In the USA, you are not obligated to turn over your film or memory cards to private citizens. Security guards are private citizens just like a stranger approaching on the street. You do not have to give them any information or in fact even respond to them.

Yes, on private property, they can escort you off (just like you can shoo people away from your front yard at your house) but they can't keep your equipment or memory cards. You have legitimate lawsuit if they try.

You don't have to turn this material over to police either but of course you'll have to play that one by ear. In other words, if you're willing to go to jail for a night or two, you'll will.

Strange thing that first amendment...

Cygnus Studios

Qarik wrote:

No one can sue you for taking picture of them on the street.

You can be sued. They will not win, but that does not stop them or some lawyer from filing the suit. I am not sure about you, but my lawyer charges me the same amount whether I am right or wrong.
If asked to delete a photo, save yourself the problem and delete it. If asked to leave, just leave. There is rarely 1 photo that will make or break you.
Being in the right doesn't mean that it won't cost you more of a headache than simply agreeing with whatever idiot is causing the problem.
You will have far less problems by simply moving on with your life.

This is a must read for model releases

dogwood

Qarik wrote:

by the way it's always good to get release when possible but anywhere public is fair game and perfectly legal. No one can sue you for taking picture of them on the street. Only in places where folks might a reasonable expcation to privacy is not okay.

Well, as has been pointed out, you can be sued for anything. Whether or not the other party will win is the question.

And yes, you can shoot photos of people on the street but you can't necessarily use those images in certain ways without a release. In other words, you can shoot my photo as I walk down the street but you can't use it (without my permission) in an advertisement or for commercial use.