Giclee Watercolor Prints

brjphoto

I think it would be helpful if Bay Photo could provide more information about the Giclee Waterecolor prints.

I ordered 2 - 8x10s last week. 1 was a lustre finish. The second was on the Giclee Watercolor paper. (Same file for both photos) After getting the prints, I have more questions the answers. I guess the real issue is, what is so special about the watercolor paper?

I need a little bit more information to share with customers otherwise, no joe blow off the street is going to understand the reason for the 9x price difference. Specifically, what paper is being used? What about the inks? What is the archival expection? Why should a customer pay $30+markup for an 8x10 as opposed to $3+markup for an equiavalent print on photo paper?

I can't just say, "ummm... It's really nice. Don't ask me why. You are just going to have to trust me." That won't fly.

Andy

Hey, great question.

http://www.smugmug.com/prints/giclee-canvas-watercolor

Bit more info:

GicléeFineArtPrints

Giclèe Prints are made with high-quality archival inks on textured fine art papers using a high-
resolution large format printer. Our premium inks produce images with smooth tones and rich colors, making these prints ideal for extraordinary presentations. Water color Giclèe is printed on heavy paper with a subtle texture.

Sam

I will be looking forward to Andy's answer, but in the meantime, as a warm up, here are my thoughts.

I use fine art papers to print on at home on my 12 pigmented ink cartridge ipf5000. The inkjet printing technology is different than traditional chemical based printing, and has a different cost structure.

Current pigmented ink printers can deliver great color, and detail. They can handle a larger gamut, and print colors you normally can't get.

The term Giclee has been in use for awhile, and was implemented in the 80's (I think), to differentiate high end iris professional printers from the cheap dye based printers available at the time.

The paper it's self can be pretty expensive. Many fine art paperers are cotton based and have few if any brighteners. The archival rating for a print made on a high quality fine art paper, and most of the current pigmented inks is some where between 80 years, and maybe 200 years for a B&W. So if the print is properly cared for print life will not be an issue. I warranty my prints for as long as I live.

I choose the final print media based on the image. If it's a bright eye popping color image, metallic paper might be the ticket. If your looking at trying for a more subtle, perhaps sophisticated, or in some cases photo realistic painterly look, one of the fine art papers can deliver.

There are many different fine art papers, smooth, textured, warm, cool, etc. The look and feel of these fine art paperers is very different from your standard luster, or glossy photo.

Bottom line is the entire process is different, with different operating economics, and delivers results not obtainable any other way.

Sam

Chris O

Sam wrote:

I will be looking forward to Andy's answer, but in the meantime, as a warm up, here are my thoughts.

I use fine art papers to print on at home on my 12 pigmented ink cartridge ipf5000. The inkjet printing technology is different than traditional chemical based printing, and has a different cost structure.

Current pigmented ink printers can deliver great color, and detail. They can handle a larger gamut, and print colors you normally can't get.

The term Giclee has been in use for awhile, and was implemented in the 80's (I think), to differentiate high end iris professional printers from the cheap dye based printers available at the time.

The paper it's self can be pretty expensive. Many fine art paperers are cotton based and have few if any brighteners. The archival rating for a print made on a high quality fine art paper, and most of the current pigmented inks is some where between 80 years, and maybe 200 years for a B&W. So if the print is properly cared for print life will not be an issue. I warranty my prints for as long as I live.

I choose the final print media based on the image. If it's a bright eye popping color image, metallic paper might be the ticket. If your looking at trying for a more subtle, perhaps sophisticated, or in some cases photo realistic painterly look, one of the fine art papers can deliver.

There are many different fine art papers, smooth, textured, warm, cool, etc. The look and feel of these fine art paperers is very different from your standard luster, or glossy photo.

Bottom line is the entire process is different, with different operating economics, and delivers results not obtainable any other way.

Sam

Exactly, the paper cost more, as well as the process of actually printing the image.

Watercolor paper is hard to see a difference unless you put it side by side with a "normal" print. The edges are softer, since the ink gets absorbed a little bit. I have one printed by a local printer done like this, and I didn't really care for it. I'd scan it, but it's locked up at the office.

I imagine for certain colored prints, this would look really good, but mine was a black and white of the statue of liberty.

brjphoto

Chris O wrote:

Exactly, the paper cost more, as well as the process of actually printing the image.

Yes, but why should the customer pay more? What is the reason the should buy Giclee vs a Lustre or Matte print?

Chris O wrote:

Watercolor paper is hard to see a difference unless you put it side by side with a "normal" print.

That's what I did. I have two identical prints side by side. One is Lustre, One is Giclee. I've been staring at them all weekend. Holding them. Turning them over. Putting them under different lights. I'm trying to figure out how to convince my customers that they should pay extra money and buy one.

Andy

brjphoto wrote:

Yes, but why should the customer pay more? What is the reason the should buy Giclee vs a Lustre or Matte print?



That's what I did. I have two identical prints side by side. One is Lustre, One is Giclee. I've been staring at them all weekend. Holding them. Turning them over. Putting them under different lights. I'm trying to figure out how to convince my customers that they should pay extra money and buy one.

And do you not see & feel a difference in the paper?

Sam

Now you guys have me worried.

I will need to have Bay print one on watercolor to see what your talking about.

I would need to see your print in my hand

If I can't see a difference from the lab, I would pull that option off my site.

I can guarantee you, if I printed an image on a luster, and one on say Hahnemuhle photo rag, you WOULD see, and feel a big difference!

Sam

Kyle D

I printed an image as an 8x10 giclee watercolur and an 4x6 lustre and metallic. And you can definitely see and feel the difference between the watercolour and the normal prints. I was totally blow away with the quality of the paper that Bay used for the watercolour. It's much thicker, stiffer, and just felt all around better. All I know is that I'm definitely keeping it as an option for my customers. I've shown it to a few and they just love it, the same is true of the 8x10 giclee canvas board I had printed. According to some of my customers, their biggest decision right now is either to go with canvas or watercolour because they love both!

Gary Miller

What is the texture of Bay's watercolor paper? Is it smooth, or does it have a pronounced texture? Is it 100 cotton rag or something else?

- Gary

Kyle D wrote:

I printed an image as an 8x10 giclee watercolur and an 4x6 lustre and metallic. And you can definitely see and feel the difference between the watercolour and the normal prints. I was totally blow away with the quality of the paper that Bay used for the watercolour. It's much thicker, stiffer, and just felt all around better. All I know is that I'm definitely keeping it as an option for my customers. I've shown it to a few and they just love it, the same is true of the 8x10 giclee canvas board I had printed. According to some of my customers, their biggest decision right now is either to go with canvas or watercolour because they love both!

brjphoto

It has a defininte texture. I don't know what the makeup of the paper is though.

I took my 2- 8x10s and gave them to several people for comparison. (One was Lustre, and one was Watercolor).

Every single person decided they liked the watercolor better, but none of them had any idea there was such a price difference between the two photos.

The photo that I was using for a sample print was a lightly colored, slightly desaturated portrait. I just ordered a 16x20 photo for a client that is a night shot of a building. There are lots of dark blues and blacks in the photo. When I get the photo I'll report back on how it looks. I had the photo shipped to me first so I could preview it before passing it on to them.

Maybe I'll snap some photos so you can see the texture of the paper.

Gary Miller wrote:

What is the texture of Bay's watercolor paper? Is it smooth, or does it have a pronounced texture? Is it 100 cotton rag or something else?

- Gary

Ann McRae

My first Bay order arrived today (w00p - I was soooo excited to open the box!).

I ordered copies of this photo on lustre and watercolor gilcee:


and of this photo on watecolor gilcee at 12x30:


and I ordered this photo 12 x30 on metallic:



So first, there is a distinct, well defined difference in the paper. The watercolor gilcee paper is thick, heavy and textured, as I would have expected. The finish is like matte.

Comparing the first photo, on watercolor vs. lustre, the harsh shadows are more pronounced on the lustre paper.

Finally, the metallic is absolutely to die for!
I was super impressed with my first metallic paper from EZ, and I continue to be impressed by it. It just adds a new dimensionality to the photos!

ann

Gary Miller

Thanks for the report on the Giclee on watercolor paper, Ann. As you may have deduced, I am developing a product offering that will utilize it.

The texture of the paper and total rag content are my two main questions and you have answered one of them.

I have to wonder what it takes to get an answer out of Bay Photo regarding the product, since I emailed them at two different addresses last week and have yet to get a reply.

I guess I'm just spoiled by SmugMug's quick reply to my inquiries.

- Gary

Andy

Gary Miller wrote:

I have to wonder what it takes to get an answer out of Bay Photo regarding the product, since I emailed them at two different addresses last week and have yet to get a reply.

They're equally good - but a lot of the folks were at WPPI last week (no excuse!) anyhow, I'm making sure they see this asap!

Gary Miller

As always, thank you, Andy. I appreciate you and the incredible folks at SmugMug.

- Gary (Another Happy Smugger)

Andy wrote:

They're equally good - but a lot of the folks were at WPPI last week (no excuse!) anyhow, I'm making sure they see this asap!

Andy

Gary Miller wrote:

The texture of the paper and total rag content are my two main questions and you have answered one of them.

* Weight: 310g
* Cotton Rag Content: 100% cotton fiber and is acid free
* Finish: Sprayed with a water based protective spray

I'll ask Anne to updated that info here:
http://www.smugmug.com/prints/giclee-canvas-watercolor

Gary Miller

That's great, Andy! Just what I wanted to hear.

Thanks again.

- Gary

Andy wrote:

* Weight: 310g
* Cotton Rag Content: 100% cotton fiber and is acid free
* Finish: Sprayed with a water based protective spray

I'll ask Anne to updated that info here:
http://www.smugmug.com/prints/giclee-canvas-watercolor

brjphoto

Ann,

How did the Giclee photo of the bridge look? The 16x20 that i ordered came last week and there appears to be some uneveness in the dark areas. Half of the picture is a dark sky, similar in tone to the photo you are showing below. I can't tell if it is due to irregularities in the spray coating, or the way the ink was applied, or what. I'm just wondering if you noticed the same thing.

Ann McRae wrote:

My first Bay order arrived today (w00p - I was soooo excited to open the box!).

and of this photo on watecolor gilcee at 12x30:



ann

AnneMcBean

Gary Miller wrote:

I have to wonder what it takes to get an answer out of Bay Photo regarding the product, since I emailed them at two different addresses last week and have yet to get a reply.

I guess I'm just spoiled by SmugMug's quick reply to my inquiries.

- Gary

Gary,

Sorry for the trouble! This is actually my fault. Bay Photo promptly emailed me the paper info after you contacted them. However, I somehow missed that the info was supposed to go to you! I just kept it to add to the product page on SmugMug for next release. Sorry about that.

-Anne

Andy

brjphoto wrote:

I can't tell if it is due to irregularities in the spray coating, or the way the ink was applied, or what.

Can I see the photo on SmugMug please?

Sam

brjphoto wrote:

Ann,

How did the Giclee photo of the bridge look? The 16x20 that i ordered came last week and there appears to be some uneveness in the dark areas. Half of the picture is a dark sky, similar in tone to the photo you are showing below. I can't tell if it is due to irregularities in the spray coating, or the way the ink was applied, or what. I'm just wondering if you noticed the same thing.

You need to provide access to your original full res file. Typically what you are describing is in the file, and is not the fault of the printer.

This can be hard to see on some monitors, but really sticks out on the print, especially if it's a larger print.

Sam

brjphoto

This was the file that was printed. If you want access to the full-res file I can provide that. I'll try to take some photos of what I am seeing so we can figure out if it is printing issue, or something in the file that gets brought out because of the nature of the printing process.


When I printed this as a giclee 8x10 I didn't see any of the problems I'm seeing here. It came out smooth and clear.

Andy wrote:

Can I see the photo on SmugMug please?

Gary Miller

No worries, Anne. Thanks for letting me know.

Did they happen to mention if the paper was by Hahnemuhle?

- Gary

AnneMcBean wrote:

Gary,

Sorry for the trouble! This is actually my fault. Bay Photo promptly emailed me the paper info after you contacted them. However, I somehow missed that the info was supposed to go to you! I just kept it to add to the product page on SmugMug for next release. Sorry about that.

-Anne

the supervillain

ok, so there are some very positive responses to the giclee canvas!

i have a customer interested in a shot of mine on canvas. i am not sure whether the watercolor or the normal giclee would be ideal. from my understanding, the watercolor is merely the texture of the surface, correct? they dont add a 'watercolor' effect to the shot or anything?

in the info page about the canvases, here, the example images look very soft.. i think this is just the actual picture that was printed right? if the picture was very sharp, it would come out that way on the canvas?? does this make sense?

Andy

the supervillain wrote:

in the info page about the canvases, here, the example images look very soft.. i think this is just the actual picture that was printed right? if the picture was very sharp, it would come out that way on the canvas?? does this make sense?

Artistic looks.
If you give a sharp image, it'll be sharp in print.