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guides on B&W conversions?

catspawcatspaw Registered Users Posts: 1,292 Major grins
edited March 31, 2009 in Finishing School
I know there's an art to successful black & white conversions of a color photo.

I also know I have no idea what's involved in a 'good' conversion vs. a 'bad' one. :dunno However, I've offerred up a few of my photos from last weekend's clinic for a newsletter and I offerred to do the B&W conversions so that the photos don't get totally mutilated.

dumb move.

So, any urls or online links or suggestions? I've LR2, CS3 and CS4 (different computers) available to me.

thanks!!! :bow
//Leah

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    nxthreenxthree Registered Users Posts: 84 Big grins
    edited March 4, 2009
    catspaw wrote:
    I know there's an art to successful black & white conversions of a color photo.

    I also know I have no idea what's involved in a 'good' conversion vs. a 'bad' one. ne_nau.gif However, I've offerred up a few of my photos from last weekend's clinic for a newsletter and I offerred to do the B&W conversions so that the photos don't get totally mutilated.

    dumb move.

    So, any urls or online links or suggestions? I've LR2, CS3 and CS4 (different computers) available to me.

    thanks!!! bowdown.gif


    I'm also very interested in some tips. I'm using Capture NX2, but am going to get PSE7 soon.

    Thanks
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    WingsOfLovePhotoWingsOfLovePhoto Registered Users Posts: 797 Major grins
    edited March 4, 2009
    catspaw wrote:
    I know there's an art to successful black & white conversions of a color photo.

    I also know I have no idea what's involved in a 'good' conversion vs. a 'bad' one. ne_nau.gif However, I've offerred up a few of my photos from last weekend's clinic for a newsletter and I offerred to do the B&W conversions so that the photos don't get totally mutilated.

    dumb move.

    So, any urls or online links or suggestions? I've LR2, CS3 and CS4 (different computers) available to me.

    thanks!!! bowdown.gif


    Scott Kelby has a CS 3 book that has good conversion strategies or you can go to www.atncentral.com and download some conversion actions. I use Vanilla black and White and Robin's light tone most often but there are several to choose from.

    On of the easiest methods for decent conversion is to change from rgb to lab color go to channels and click on the lightness layer. It will turn to a light b/w. then change to grayscale, copy the layer and add multiply to the layer. Then decrease opacity until you like what you see. You might also need to adjust contrast to your taste. This is a Scott Kelby conversion. Good luck!
    Snady :thumb
    my money well spent :D
    Nikon D4, D3s, D3, D700, Nikkor 24-70, 70-200 2.8 vrII, 50mm 1.4, 85mm 1.4, 105mm macro, sigma fisheye, SB 800's and lots of other goodies!
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    ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 23,912 moderator
    edited March 4, 2009
    For simple and quick conversions I use a PhotoShop action that simulates several old B&W papers and films (I've only tested to PSCS2):

    http://static.photo.net/attachments/bboard/00H/00HysS-32261484.atn

    I'll also use the "Virtual Photographer" B&W filters sometimes:

    http://www.optikvervelabs.com/

    Picasa has some decent B&W conversions as well:

    http://picasa.google.com/

    If nothing else, the above give me some options and alternatives from which to start. Unfortunately I think the "Virtual Photographer" and "Picasa" are Windows only.
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
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    catspawcatspaw Registered Users Posts: 1,292 Major grins
    edited March 4, 2009
    ziggy53 wrote:
    For simple and quick conversions I use a PhotoShop action that simulates several old B&W papers and films (I've only tested to PSCS2):

    http://static.photo.net/attachments/bboard/00H/00HysS-32261484.atn

    I'll also use the "Virtual Photographer" B&W filters sometimes:

    http://www.optikvervelabs.com/

    Picasa has some decent B&W conversions as well:

    http://picasa.google.com/

    If nothing else, the above give me some options and alternatives from which to start. Unfortunately I think the "Virtual Photographer" and "Picasa" are Windows only.

    I can do windowz rolleyes1.gif heck, that's my main 'business' computer right now cause the free Quick Books I had was PC only. Has LR2 on it but no CS. I'll give the picasa a whirl. thanks!!!
    //Leah
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    pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,699 moderator
    edited March 4, 2009
    Leah,

    As mentioned above there are lots of actions and software packages to do B&W conversions, but I think it helps to really understand what B&W conversion is about, because when you lose hue and saturation you depend on shape and luminosity entirely for your image.

    Here are three links that I think may offer some help.

    The first is a sticky of mine at the top of the Finishing School forum


    The second is the discussion of B&W conversion in the extended review of Professional Photoshop


    The third is my discussion of B&W conversion in Professional Photoshop

    I love good grayscale images. CS3 and CS4 both offer excellent tools in addition to Channel Mixer for B&W conversions via Image> Adjustments > B&W

    Most good grayscale images need a good black and a good white value. Too many grayscale images are too flat and too gray ( just my opinion )
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
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    catspawcatspaw Registered Users Posts: 1,292 Major grins
    edited March 4, 2009
    pathfinder wrote:
    Leah,

    As mentioned above there are lots of actions and software packages to do B&W conversions, but I think it helps to really understand what B&W conversion is about, because when you lose hue and saturation you depend on shape and luminosity entirely for your image.

    THANK YOU! learning more about this process is exactly what I was hoping for -- at least for the long run even if I just have a few hours for these images this time around.
    //Leah
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    gmitchel850gmitchel850 Registered Users Posts: 100 Major grins
    edited March 4, 2009
    I have a couple of tutorials on B&W conversion, toning, etc. that might help.

    http://www.thelightsright.com/MakingAFineArtBWImage
    http://www.thelightsright.com/AddingDimensionToYourMonochromeImages

    I also have free Photoshop actions, Lightroom presets, ACR presets, etc. for B&W conversion that you can study.

    http://www.thelightsright.com/view/tlr_tools_menu

    Cheers,

    Mitch
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    arodneyarodney Registered Users Posts: 2,005 Major grins
    edited March 5, 2009
    Here's a new video tutorial by Martin Evening on using Lightroom for conversions:

    http://lightroom-news.com/2009/03/02/improved-grayscale-conversions/
    Andrew Rodney
    Author "Color Management for Photographers"
    http://www.digitaldog.net/
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    gmitchel850gmitchel850 Registered Users Posts: 100 Major grins
    edited March 5, 2009
    arodney wrote:
    Here's a new video tutorial by Martin Evening on using Lightroom for conversions:

    http://lightroom-news.com/2009/03/02/improved-grayscale-conversions/

    Andrew:

    Unless it is fixed now, there's a problem with the video. I wanted to add a link as a feature on my site, and when I was previewing the video, it stopped about 75% of the way through.

    There was already a comment posted by another user.

    So you might want to tell Sean or someone to check it. ;)

    Cheers,

    Mitch
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    arodneyarodney Registered Users Posts: 2,005 Major grins
    edited March 5, 2009
    gmitchel850 wrote:
    Unless it is fixed now, there's a problem with the video.

    I watched it day before yesterday, ran fine for me.
    Andrew Rodney
    Author "Color Management for Photographers"
    http://www.digitaldog.net/
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    gmitchel850gmitchel850 Registered Users Posts: 100 Major grins
    edited March 5, 2009
    arodney wrote:
    I watched it day before yesterday, ran fine for me.

    OK. I had the issue yesterday. I saw a comment was posted from another user with the same experience.

    I'm just trying to help. What I saw was well done. The audio was a little muted, but the content was excellent.

    I'll check it again, since I would like to feature the link, if it is woking correctly.

    These things happen! ;)

    Cheers,

    Mitch
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    arodneyarodney Registered Users Posts: 2,005 Major grins
    edited March 5, 2009
    Martin is muted (he's British ;)
    Andrew Rodney
    Author "Color Management for Photographers"
    http://www.digitaldog.net/
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    gmitchel850gmitchel850 Registered Users Posts: 100 Major grins
    edited March 6, 2009
    arodney wrote:
    Martin is muted (he's British ;)

    You obviously ain't spent a lot of time in the UK. The upper classes like yanks to think the British are always prim and proper. Ain't so, by a long shot. Working class Brits are as rowdy as it gets. ;)

    Just watch British football, the House of Commons, British theatre, etc.

    The video seems to be working fine. I added the link this AM.

    http://www.thelightsright.com/node/527

    Cheers,

    Mitch
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    arodneyarodney Registered Users Posts: 2,005 Major grins
    edited March 20, 2009
    Another video for conversion from Jeff Schewe:

    http://photoshopnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/color-bw.mov
    Andrew Rodney
    Author "Color Management for Photographers"
    http://www.digitaldog.net/
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    gmitchel850gmitchel850 Registered Users Posts: 100 Major grins
    edited March 22, 2009
    arodney wrote:
    Another video for conversion from Jeff Schewe:

    http://photoshopnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/color-bw.mov


    I've had a .PDF tutorial and action set for splitting channels and using them for B&W conversion for . . . hmmm . . . six years now. Same technique Jeff demonstrates in his video.

    Action set
    http://www.thelightsright.com/TLRSplitChannels

    Tutorial
    http://www.thelightsright.com/SplitYourChannelsForImprovedBW

    You don't need to buy a book to get the DVD with the action set that goes with the video! Everyone is free to download my .PDF tutorial and action set.

    (I'm counting the minutes until Jeff shows up to give yet another forum a spray!) rolleyes1.gif

    Enjoy!

    Cheers,

    Mitch
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    arodneyarodney Registered Users Posts: 2,005 Major grins
    edited March 22, 2009
    gmitchel850 wrote:
    I've had a .PDF tutorial and action set for splitting channels and using them for B&W conversion for . . . hmmm . . . six years now. Same technique Jeff demonstrates in his video.

    You're making the incorrect assumption (again) that your techniques predates Jeff's, just because he posted a recent video.
    Andrew Rodney
    Author "Color Management for Photographers"
    http://www.digitaldog.net/
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    gmitchel850gmitchel850 Registered Users Posts: 100 Major grins
    edited March 22, 2009
    arodney wrote:
    You're making the incorrect assumption (again) that your techniques predates Jeff's, just because he posted a recent video.

    It's not my technique. You and Jeff need to get over "who" techniques should be attributed to. rolleyes1.gif

    You know the point that I'm driving at!

    http://www.thelightsright.com/node/598

    You really should disclaim your connection with Jeff Schewe and Martin Evening when you point to their videos, etc on threads here and in other forums. You're a business partner with both in Pixel Genius and Pixel Genius owns both Photoshop News and Lightroom News.

    I have no problem with you linking to your own sites. But you should be open and honest that's what's going on, Andrew. ;)

    Leaving DigitialDog in your sig and no mention of your business association when you link to your own sites is less than candid with readers. It gives the impression of independent evaluations, when you are anything but independent of the Pixel Genius partners, Lightroom News, and Photoshop News.

    Speaking of untrue claims . . .

    When have I ever claimed that any "technique" of mine of predates Jeff's? I don't even think of any technique as mine. rolleyes1.gif

    Cheers,

    Mitch
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    arodneyarodney Registered Users Posts: 2,005 Major grins
    edited March 22, 2009
    gmitchel850 wrote:
    It's not my technique. You and Jeff need to get over "who" techniques should be attributed to. rolleyes1.gif

    I'm quite clear its not your technique and who's it is, that's the point!
    You really should disclaim your connection with Jeff Schewe and Martin Evening when you point to their videos, etc on threads here and in other forums. You're a business partner with both in Pixel Genius and Pixel Genius owns both Photoshop News and Lightroom News.

    Every post has my web page, and on my site, the association is absolutely clear. And how is having a business relationship with either have anything to do with posting a useful video technique?

    So what technique have you ever originally produced?
    Andrew Rodney
    Author "Color Management for Photographers"
    http://www.digitaldog.net/
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    DavidTODavidTO Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 19,160 Major grins
    edited March 22, 2009
    This petty quibbling needs to stop now. Any further posts will be deleted. If it continues to be a problem you will be given a cooling off period of 7 days, banned from dgrin. There is no place for these petty arguments in this forum.
    Moderator Emeritus
    Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
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    arodneyarodney Registered Users Posts: 2,005 Major grins
    edited March 23, 2009
    Yet another B&W conversion, this time from photographer Greg Gorman:

    http://www.gormanphotography.com/bw_conversion.pdf
    Andrew Rodney
    Author "Color Management for Photographers"
    http://www.digitaldog.net/
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    pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,699 moderator
    edited March 23, 2009
    Andrew, that is one of my favorites ever since I saw Mr Gorman perform it on the online Epson Print workshop.
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
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    gmitchel850gmitchel850 Registered Users Posts: 100 Major grins
    edited March 31, 2009
    arodney wrote:
    Martin is muted (he's British ;)

    That's not what's going on. I just checked. The volume is set to -15db.

    When I loaded B&W conversion video into Adobe Soundbooth CS4 and normalized the audio, it was obvious why Martin's videos are so quiet. He's using a cheap mic connected to the audio in jack on a laptop. The audio is horribly noisy. Rather than remove the noise, the choice was made to reduce the audio level. Hides the noise, but also makes the audio hard to hear.

    Cheers,

    Mitch
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    arodneyarodney Registered Users Posts: 2,005 Major grins
    edited March 31, 2009
    gmitchel850 wrote:
    That's not what's going on. I just checked. The volume is set to -15db.
    When I loaded B&W conversion video into Adobe Soundbooth CS4 and normalized the audio, it was obvious why Martin's videos are so quiet. He's using a cheap mic connected to the audio in jack on a laptop. The audio is horribly noisy. Rather than remove the noise, the choice was made to reduce the audio level. Hides the noise, but also makes the audio hard to hear.

    Sounds just fine for me, you're the only one complaining. Get some decent speakers.
    Andrew Rodney
    Author "Color Management for Photographers"
    http://www.digitaldog.net/
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    pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,699 moderator
    edited March 31, 2009
    Actually, Andrew, I have trouble hearing Martin clearly even with the volume level full on the Quick Time player, and with the volume in my Mac Book maxed also, in a quiet office environment.

    I can hear Martin, but only with real significant effort.

    I think Mitch is making a constructive suggestion as I'll bet we are not alone in our difficulty hearing this video clearly. It is a shame, because it is an otherwise interesting and useful video that ends up being a bit of a pain due to the lack of volume.

    I will try again tonight at home on my desktop unit with its larger speakers and see if I find the same issue there as well. Much of the world does much of their work these days with laptops. I can play Youtubes quite loud with my same MacBook, so I think the issue is not my speakers.

    LATER AT HOME ---- When I look at the video at home on my desktop the video IS significantly louder and easier to hear. I will check my volume settings on my laptop again and see if I can get more volume out of it.

    With that I will return the thread to Leah's original question regarding techniques for B&W conversion.
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
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    gmitchel850gmitchel850 Registered Users Posts: 100 Major grins
    edited March 31, 2009
    pathfinder wrote:
    I think George is making a constructive suggestion as I'll bet we are not alone in our difficulty hearing this video clearly. It is a shame, because it is an otherwise interesting and useful video that ends up being a bit of a pain due to the lack of volume.

    I agree. It is an otherwise useful video. I showcased it on my site for that reason.

    The volume is at -15db. That's just an empirical fact, and that s not typical of production videos. Standard practice is to normalize the audio.

    [Laughing.gif. I have Bose head phones, and I cut and edit a lot of video. My comments were intended as a constructive criticism. I have never seen a production video with audio levels set at -15 db.]

    EveningVideo.png

    If you do normalize the audio in something like Adobe Soundboard, you'll see on the waveform and hear that the audio is extremely noisy. Again, that's just an empirical fact. You can even see here that it's noisy (you just can't hear it with the reduced audio level).

    It would have been better to remove the noise or cut the video again. All audio editors have the ability to remove fan noise, etc.

    This is not a nit reserved for Martin Evening's video on B&W conversion. I'm quite critical of poor audio quality in commercial Photoshop videos.

    http://www.thelightsright.com/node/270
    http://www.thelightsright.com/node/448

    Having to strain to hear the audio is a distraction that mars a video that indeed does have good technical information. ;)

    Cheers,

    Mitch
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    pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,699 moderator
    edited March 31, 2009
    Mitch, lets try to get back to Leah's concerns about B&W conversions.

    I am going to delete further posts that are off topic - The topic of this thread is and remains B&W conversions, please.

    Here's one of Andy's methods
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
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    arodneyarodney Registered Users Posts: 2,005 Major grins
    edited March 31, 2009
    pathfinder wrote:
    George, lets try to get back to Leah's concerns about B&W conversions.


    I agree. And who's George?

    And getting back on topic, I think the very old Russell Brown method is pretty sweet.

    http://av.adobe.com/russellbrown/CS3Color_To_BWSM.mov
    Andrew Rodney
    Author "Color Management for Photographers"
    http://www.digitaldog.net/
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    pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,699 moderator
    edited March 31, 2009
    Nice link, Andrew.

    Selective color, also, at the same time eventhumb.gif
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
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    gmitchel850gmitchel850 Registered Users Posts: 100 Major grins
    edited March 31, 2009
    pathfinder wrote:
    Nice link, Andrew.

    Selective color, also, at the same time eventhumb.gif

    [I believe I'm George. [img]https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/uploads/emoji/Laughing.gif[/img]. It was a harmless mistake and wasn't worth mentioning.]

    You can use a Selective color layer paired with a Hue/Saturation adjustment layer or a Curves layer paired with a Hue/Saturation layer, also.

    I have a .PDF tutorial that focuses on Selective Color paired with Hue/Saturation but also mentions all three.

    http://www.thelightsright.com/MakingAFineArtBWImage

    Cheers,

    Mitch
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