How much to charge for art copy work?

Tim KamppinenTim Kamppinen Registered Users Posts: 816 Major grins
edited March 24, 2009 in Mind Your Own Business
Hello, I'm trying to finally do some paid photography gigs, although I haven't done a lot so far. I'm a teacher at a small rural school in Upper Michigan, and the art teacher here hired me to take photos of her paintings at her home so that she can submit them for art shows, etc. via email. So I went over to her house, photographed approximately 10 pieces, and it took about 2 hrs total including travel time (maybe 15 min). I still need to edit them and put them on a cd to give to her, but I don't think that should take more than about an hour (on my ancient slow computer) considering I'm going to do next to no retouching (just some slight sharpening and maybe contrast adjustments, but I don't want them to come out looking sharper and punchier than the actual paintings, of course). So what I'm wondering is what to charge for this service. Things that I've considered are:

Total time involved: 3 hours (approx.)

Almost no creativity required on my part (just placing my lights to avoid glare from the glass)

Not very difficult overall

The images really have no intrinsic value for me (which is why I'm just giving a CD of files; what am I going to do with photos of someone else's art?)

This is the first time I've actually been hired for a specific job.

She's a coworker.

We live in a very small town where the "going rate" for photography is no where near what it would be in a large city.



So, I was thinking something around $50 for the disc. Does this seem outrageously low? I looked at site or two online and people were charging upwards of $100 for one image! I didn't see where they were located but it certainly wasn't in the market that I am attempting to serve. Most of the local photographers charge sitting fees of $40-60 or so for portraits, so I thought that $50 would be a reasonable price for the disc considering that I didn't really need to put a whole lot of thought, planning, creativity, etc into this and there was almost no post work involved.

What do you think? I don't want to overcharge, but I don't want to sell myself short either.

Comments

  • SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited March 24, 2009
    Tim,

    For me the answer is pretty simple. You should charge what you quoted, and what she agreed to prior to the shoot.

    No quote=no meeting of the minds, no agreement, no contract, a no win situation.

    Sam

    Edit: I just looked at your web site, and you have some very nice images.
  • Tim KamppinenTim Kamppinen Registered Users Posts: 816 Major grins
    edited March 24, 2009
    Sam wrote:
    Tim,

    For me the answer is pretty simple. You should charge what you quoted, and what she agreed to prior to the shoot.

    No quote=no meeting of the minds, no agreement, no contract, a no win situation.

    Sam

    Edit: I just looked at your web site, and you have some very nice images.

    Yeah, that's the thing. I didn't quote a price and we didn't agree on anything. Which I realize seems very unprofessional, and I don't plan on doing it that way again. But anyway I need to come up with a number before I bring her the files (hopefully tomorrow). My plan right now is to go with $50. I'm thinking that even if it is low, I'm not going to get a lot of jobs of this type anyway, so it's not like people are going to be wondering why I charge them more and don't give them the files when I do their senior portraits (since the two jobs are so different).

    BTW, thanks for the compliment.
  • Cygnus StudiosCygnus Studios Registered Users Posts: 2,294 Major grins
    edited March 24, 2009
    Yeah, that's the thing. I didn't quote a price and we didn't agree on anything. Which I realize seems very unprofessional, and I don't plan on doing it that way again. But anyway I need to come up with a number before I bring her the files (hopefully tomorrow). My plan right now is to go with $50. I'm thinking that even if it is low, I'm not going to get a lot of jobs of this type anyway, so it's not like people are going to be wondering why I charge them more and don't give them the files when I do their senior portraits (since the two jobs are so different).

    BTW, thanks for the compliment.

    Wow. I am not sure why anyone would do a shoot without talking terms, but hey that is what you did.
    If you are comfortable with charging $50 then charge her and move on. Why do you believe that you won't get future work like this?
    My first thought would be send you plenty of work at $50 since I charge upwards of $500.
    Okay, back to topic. Do not get in the habit of thinking where future work will come from. Be available and work will find you.

    Now, go to the mirror and tell yourself to never, ever, shoot anything (that can provide income) without a contract in hand.
    Steve

    Website
  • Tim KamppinenTim Kamppinen Registered Users Posts: 816 Major grins
    edited March 24, 2009
    Wow. I am not sure why anyone would do a shoot without talking terms, but hey that is what you did.
    If you are comfortable with charging $50 then charge her and move on. Why do you believe that you won't get future work like this?
    My first thought would be send you plenty of work at $50 since I charge upwards of $500.
    Okay, back to topic. Do not get in the habit of thinking where future work will come from. Be available and work will find you.

    Now, go to the mirror and tell yourself to never, ever, shoot anything (that can provide income) without a contract in hand.

    Well, this was a pretty informal arrangement. I don't have any contracts made up, etc. Of course that's something I need to do before going further, but this was sort of a spur of the moment "Hey could I hire you to do this..." sort of thing. Lesson learned on that count.

    As far as not getting a lot of work like this, well, first of all there are not a lot of artists in the area (or people for that matter; the school I teach at will have a graduating class of about 20 people this year, just to give you an idea) and secondly I don't plan on marketing my self for this sort of thing (it's pretty boring and I want to devote my energy to getting into portrait/wedding work, which I enjoy doing and involves at least some measure of artistry/skill/talent). I think a lot of people don't comprehend what it's like in a small town. First of all, there are no photographers in the actual town where I live. The nearest ones are 40 - 60 miles away, and as I said they charge under $100 for a sitting fee. If someone around here charged $500 for a shoot other than a wedding they would have little work, because it's a poor area and no one could afford it even if they loved your work. Obviously you live in an area where the market for photography will support such a rate, which is great and if I were there I would do the same thing. But back here in the sticks, it just wouldn't fly.

    Thanks for the feedback, though. I will be sure to get everything in writing from now on. That's basically laziness/stupidity on my part, I'll admit.
  • Cygnus StudiosCygnus Studios Registered Users Posts: 2,294 Major grins
    edited March 24, 2009
    As far as not getting a lot of work like this, well, first of all there are not a lot of artists in the area (or people for that matter; the school I teach at will have a graduating class of about 20 people this year, just to give you an idea) and secondly I don't plan on marketing my self for this sort of thing (it's pretty boring and I want to devote my energy to getting into portrait/wedding work, which I enjoy doing and involves at least some measure of artistry/skill/talent). I think a lot of people don't comprehend what it's like in a small town.

    I am originally from a small town, and have lived in smaller markets. The town that I am from in the year 2000 added their 2nd stop sign, and that is on the other end of the road from the 1st stop sign. They still have 1 school for grades K through 12.
    Even though I now live in a pretty populated area, the majority of my work is not from the bay area.
    My largest client is based in Florida. They mail me packages several times a week and I photograph and mail them back.
    There are thousands of better photographers between Florida and California.
    There are thousands of cheaper photographers between Florida and California.
    There are probably thousands of ten year olds that are better at Photoshop than I am between Florida and California.
    The reason that I have this contract is because they know that each and every week they will receive images that are consistantly exceeding their expectations.
    These images sell their products locally, regionally, nationally and internationally.
    The people that see these images in magazines and on line have no idea that one little smart alek photographer in San Francisco is taking the images. Nor do they care.
    Way too often I read on these online forums about someone in Podunk, (enter your state here) that only sees the business there.
    I have traveled all over the United States and with no exceptions I can buy magazines, newspapers, get on the internet and even view ads on my phone.
    I am relatively certain that these ads did not originate in Podunk, (whatever state I was in).

    My apologies if there is actually a Podunk


    My point is that there is a great big world out there, and not every business prospect has to come from your town. That is even true here in the bay area.
    The past two weekends I was brought down to Los Angeles by clients who wanted me to shoot their products. They didn't do this because of a lack of willing photographers in L.A.

    There are members of this forum that I have sent possible work to. When I see a photographers work who would fit one of my clients needs, I send that info to them.

    I fully understand that not everyone wants to shoot products. Believe me, I know that it isn't as much fun as shooting naked women, or for that matter taking pictures of hawks, but it pays darn well.

    All I am saying is do not limit yourself to your town or one type of photography.
    Steve

    Website
  • Art ScottArt Scott Registered Users Posts: 8,959 Major grins
    edited March 24, 2009
    For a very 1st job, $50 isn't bad for what you did...simple, no real creative work....just light and shoot........
    As for what would YOU do with images of her art work.....put it in your commercial portfolio.....that is exactly what this shoot was ...... a commercial product shoot.....also that disk needs to be low resolution or here is what she could do: She has original art work that YOU shoot and give here high rez copies of..........she decides to sell limited edition copies of here paintings/ drawings.....she has your images of her work and now she can make a run of 100 to 1000 limited edition prints for a dollar or two each and sell for $30 - 150 depending on her size. of course she could run 1K and split into 750 signed and number and 250 signed and up what she charges by a lot.

    I had the privilege of shooting several Vargas originals for a local attorney and I had a weird feeling in my stomach while at his house doing this.....I asked him straight forward why he wanted such good copies that I had to rent a Hassleblad and lens for the job, that if it had been just for insurance purposes I could have charged him less and shoot on 35mm......he tried telling me it was his Insurance agents idea but I called him on it as I knew the agent.....so he gave me some reall vague reasons why and why everything had to be perfectly aligned so the copy was as perfect as the original......I smelled scam.......so I shot but I was off alignment just a tad to where on small prints it would not show but on 30x40 (size of the originals) it would not print square...........
    I delivered him a copy of the original transparencies (slide film) and I kept the originals just in case.
    I heard later after he passed away (diabetes complications at 45) that he was getting ready to use those for an insurance scam and also to sell copies in mexico and a couple of other foreign countries......

    Just be careful.
    "Genuine Fractals was, is and will always be the best solution for enlarging digital photos." ....Vincent Versace ... ... COPYRIGHT YOUR WORK ONLINE ... ... My Website

  • jstewjstew Registered Users Posts: 12 Big grins
    edited March 24, 2009
    People Don't get ahead of yourself
    Hello, I'm trying to finally do some paid photography gigs, although I haven't done a lot so far. I'm a teacher at a small rural school in Upper Michigan, and the art teacher here hired me to take photos of her paintings at her home so that she can submit them for art shows, etc. via email. So I went over to her house, photographed approximately 10 pieces, and it took about 2 hrs total including travel time (maybe 15 min). I still need to edit them and put them on a cd to give to her, but I don't think that should take more than about an hour (on my ancient slow computer) considering I'm going to do next to no retouching (just some slight sharpening and maybe contrast adjustments, but I don't want them to come out looking sharper and punchier than the actual paintings, of course). So what I'm wondering is what to charge for this service. Things that I've considered are:

    Hi Tim,
    If I may give some of my thoughts... First I am a Professional commercial Photographer and have been involved with this since 1979. I have copied fine art with values up to 500k and copied things with no value. What it boils down to is what you want for it. For me an art teachers paintings to enter some shows, for a Friend, with some simple lighting min $10 each (providing just just shooting with some DSLR). I think you have to realize than you can't get a stock image for less. So an image file is a least worth $10. If I were to charge someone who walked in the door of my studio (an art teacher lets say) and the value of the painting is nothing for the moment I would charge for Digital DSLR images for web and email use approx 8.5x11 at 72dpi Done with simple lighting (couple of flash heads and shoot) $15per image, and 15 for the CD. For a quantity of 10 paintings, similar in size, and medium, used just the way they are. OK now lets say they want better, value of the painting still nothing and they just want web size files 8.5x11 at 72dpi, they want them to look good so I would light them like I would light a expensive painting not just a couple of flashes but a major set. I would charge $250 setup and 20 per file 15 for the CD. Now lets go all the way they want repo quality files the paintings are worth something, first how much are they worth when I have shot expensive painting for the Smithsonian use, the client wanted me to be insured for 2mil per painting, Depending on the image and reproduction possibilities, I would choose, or give them a choice of 4x5 trans or 8x10. I could and would shoot on the leaf MF back also if they say thats fine. I would not take (sign for all the paintings at once only 1 or 2 at a time because of insurance reasons) I would figure $600 - $1000 on the set up for each image Figure on a bout $500 per each 4x5 final trans or $750 for each 8x10 trans. If the requirement was digital and the Leaf MF Back 75.00 min file 60mb and $1.00/per mb on up. So let quote 10 paintings worth 250 k each shot Highres digital with match prints. My quote would be $10,000 labor (10 ) 65mb files w/MF back(lets say) 11x17 match prints at $100 each. $20 per DVD. The prints would be delivered to me into my studio where I would take/sign for them after inspection, they would in turn need to pick them up inspect and release me of liability in my studio and are their responsibility after my front door. So to answer you question $50 a little cheep maybe upwards of $100.

    cheers
  • takeflightphototakeflightphoto Registered Users Posts: 194 Major grins
    edited March 24, 2009
    Art Scott wrote:
    For a very 1st job, $50 isn't bad for what you did...simple, no real creative work....just light and shoot........
    As for what would YOU do with images of her art work.....put it in your commercial portfolio.....that is exactly what this shoot was ...... a commercial product shoot.....also that disk needs to be low resolution or here is what she could do: She has original art work that YOU shoot and give here high rez copies of..........she decides to sell limited edition copies of here paintings/ drawings.....she has your images of her work and now she can make a run of 100 to 1000 limited edition prints for a dollar or two each and sell for $30 - 150 depending on her size. of course she could run 1K and split into 750 signed and number and 250 signed and up what she charges by a lot.

    Sorry, Art. But in this instance, the photographer is acting as nothing more than a high-level copy machine. The original art belonged to the artist and it is her property and she has the right to make copies (photographic, lithographic, or otherwise) to sell as she sees fit. To assume that the photographer might have any claim to use the photos is disingenuous. She is using the photographer's technical ability, equipment, and time to gain those copies of HER work. Just because YOU shoot the pictures does not give you any sort of copyright to the images, because you did not CREATE anything. Granted, a contract should have been executed prior, just to keep things straight. But that should be a reasonable payment for the time and equipment costs, and nothing more. She SHOULD get high resolution images, if that's what she paid for.

    In the second case, where you shot the Vargas images, the work may have been owned by someone, but they did not create it. Thus you were right to question it. Personally, I wouldn't have even shot the job. Even though you altered the images (in or out of camera) to prevent quality copies, you may have entangled yourself in the fraud by doing so. Just my opinion, though.

    jon
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