I would love to know how this project goes. Please keep me posted, thanks.
Thanks for your interest. Things may have gotten a little strange. The partner who runs the gem tile business had me do an interim shoot for them. I shot 28 12" square tile sheets in a light tent for them to put on a couple of websites. I did great job on these. I spent 4 hours on the shoot, two of which was doing a meticulous setup and checking and rechecking exposures. Then we ran all the tiles through.
After shooting, but before processing, I reviewed the shots with the client who liked them. At that point I said we probably should discuss a fee. I asked what the last photographer had charged them who did this sort of work, and he said that they were never billed for it. I asked him if he was expecting me to work for free as well and he said no. I told him that I'd give him a good price since I wanted an ongoing relationship with them, and quoted $7.50 a shot ($210 total) delivered in three sizes on CDs (two copies, since they are sending one out to an affiliate). The client said he thought that was reasonable. Now I can almost hear the boos and hisses that I did this job so cheap, and it's true. Really, I just wanted to do a good job so that I'd get the much larger follow-on work.
Having agreed on the price, I spent another couple of hours processing, cropping, and sizing the shots into three different sizes (thumbs, websize, and full size). I delivered the CD's and presented them with an invoice. I also asked about scheduling the larger scene work with the lights I built and they said they'd get back to me on that. It's been over a week, but I haven't heard a peep. Previous to my invoice, they'd been hot to trot to get these scenes shot. I'm out of town on vacation this week, but next week I'll ping them again and ask them what's up.
My fear is that they have no appreciation what a photographer's time and skills are worth. I did mention to the client that the full-size scenes for which I built the custom lighting system were going to be priced significantly higher than the tiles sheets since I've already got considerable time and expense into the job. Honestly I wasn't hearing any reassuring words there. Perhaps I called their bluff by invoicing them on the "28 tiles" job and they realize now that the full-scene work is going to cost real money. That would be especially annoying because they mentioned they are making a LOT of money from these tiles. He mentioned some recent orders, and they are way into the 5 figures territory. So it's not like they're on a shoestring budget. Good pictures are vital to their business model and they know this.
So at this point, who knows. I'm going to take previously given advice above, and try to nail them down to a contract next week. If that doesn't fly, I'll pull the lights apart and try to return the pieces to recoup my costs. Lesson learned I guess, although I probably wouldn't do anything differently next time. I'm learning that business is often done in small towns like this with a hand shake. And people flaking out on deals is par for the course. C'est la vie.
I told him that I'd give him a good price since I wanted an ongoing relationship with them, and quoted $7.50 a shot ($210 total)
My fear is that they have no appreciation what a photographer's time and skills are worth.
These two comments are a direct result of each other.
I understand looking at the long term and structuring the pay to reflect that, but it is always easier to lower prices than to raise them.
Their profit margins have nothing to do with you. You cannot base your prices on what they may or may not profit from selling their products. That is out of your control. Therefor it should be out of your mind.
Whether you believe it, like it, or even intend it, once you agree to take photos for money, you are now a business. Your time has a certain value to it.
Your time value doesn't change if you are taking photos of a matchbox car for Ebay, or a ten million dollar home.
You really need to determine what your time value is. Now you may only be worth $20 an hour, or you may be worth $200 per hour, but that has to be your decision. Never allow the client to dictate what your time is worth.
You should control when and to whom discounts are given. I suggest that you give them to long term clients with proven accounts, but that is only my opinion.
Unless you also plan on being the clients business partner, their profits should never enter into your mind.
They could have the greatest product in the world, with fabulous photos, but that doesn't guarantee success. It certainly isn't your job to worry about it.
Thanks for your interest. Things may have gotten a little strange. The partner who runs the gem tile business had me do an interim shoot for them. I shot 28 12" square tile sheets in a light tent for them to put on a couple of websites. I did great job on these. I spent 4 hours on the shoot, two of which was doing a meticulous setup and checking and rechecking exposures. Then we ran all the tiles through.
After shooting, but before processing, I reviewed the shots with the client who liked them. At that point I said we probably should discuss a fee. I asked what the last photographer had charged them who did this sort of work, and he said that they were never billed for it. I asked him if he was expecting me to work for free as well and he said no. I told him that I'd give him a good price since I wanted an ongoing relationship with them, and quoted $7.50 a shot ($210 total) delivered in three sizes on CDs (two copies, since they are sending one out to an affiliate). The client said he thought that was reasonable. Now I can almost hear the boos and hisses that I did this job so cheap, and it's true. Really, I just wanted to do a good job so that I'd get the much larger follow-on work.
Having agreed on the price, I spent another couple of hours processing, cropping, and sizing the shots into three different sizes (thumbs, websize, and full size). I delivered the CD's and presented them with an invoice. I also asked about scheduling the larger scene work with the lights I built and they said they'd get back to me on that. It's been over a week, but I haven't heard a peep. Previous to my invoice, they'd been hot to trot to get these scenes shot. I'm out of town on vacation this week, but next week I'll ping them again and ask them what's up.
My fear is that they have no appreciation what a photographer's time and skills are worth. I did mention to the client that the full-size scenes for which I built the custom lighting system were going to be priced significantly higher than the tiles sheets since I've already got considerable time and expense into the job. Honestly I wasn't hearing any reassuring words there. Perhaps I called their bluff by invoicing them on the "28 tiles" job and they realize now that the full-scene work is going to cost real money. That would be especially annoying because they mentioned they are making a LOT of money from these tiles. He mentioned some recent orders, and they are way into the 5 figures territory. So it's not like they're on a shoestring budget. Good pictures are vital to their business model and they know this.
So at this point, who knows. I'm going to take previously given advice above, and try to nail them down to a contract next week. If that doesn't fly, I'll pull the lights apart and try to return the pieces to recoup my costs. Lesson learned I guess, although I probably wouldn't do anything differently next time. I'm learning that business is often done in small towns like this with a hand shake. And people flaking out on deals is par for the course. C'est la vie.
Cheers,
-joel
I'm not really surprised by this- you're are just another in a series of photographers that have given them photos for free- so why should they have any appreciation for the value and skills of a photographer?
I said in one of my earlier posts to you ,
"If you give away your product for pennies, they will think that's what the product is worth, and then when you out of the blue want to charge $$$$$$$, they will find someone else who will give away the product for pennies.
So don't undervalue yourself and don't undercut other photogs by giving it away for essentially nothing."
So they got a bunch of photos of tiles essentially for free from you- that is, IF they pay you. So you will now walk away, and they will string along the next photographer until they get their next set of photos for free, and on and on.
It's self perpetuating, and it is one of the reasons that photographers ARE so undervalued.
You present yourself as a photographer, you take on a job, you should have a contract in place before you make one click of the shutter.
Hey, at least I billed them. Evidently nobody has done that before. So that's a start. Billing is one thing, but collecting is another. Let's see if they pay my invoice and schedule the larger follow-on shoot. That's where the larger money will be.
Hey, at least I billed them. Evidently nobody has done that before. So that's a start. Billing is one thing, but collecting is another. Let's see if they pay my invoice and schedule the larger follow-on shoot. That's where the larger money will be.
Thanks again guys. I appreciate the input.
-joel
Hi Joel. This thread is very intersting, and has inspired me to give you my $500 ( ) I clearly am not an expert on photo pricing, but I am an organizational effectiveness expert, and the one thing I can advise you on, which I imagine you have already learned, is to get a firm contract/agreement in place before you do any work or invest any money.
You obviously put a lot of work into what you did do, and I know that your talent, brains, and work ethic are worth way more than you think. As a person who makes a living apart from photography, you do not need to be tentative about asking more than you think is fair, and to be willing to walk away if they don't agree. I would also consider getting half up front, and half on delivery.:D
You obviously put a lot of work into what you did do, and I know that your talent, brains, and work ethic are worth way more than you think. As a person who makes a living apart from photography, you do not need to be tentative about asking more than you think is fair, and to be willing to walk away if they don't agree. I would also consider getting half up front, and half on delivery.
Thanks for your interest. Things may have gotten a little strange. The partner who runs the gem tile business had me do an interim shoot for them. I shot 28 12" square tile sheets in a light tent for them to put on a couple of websites. I did great job on these. I spent 4 hours on the shoot, two of which was doing a meticulous setup and checking and rechecking exposures. Then we ran all the tiles through.
After shooting, but before processing, I reviewed the shots with the client who liked them. At that point I said we probably should discuss a fee. I asked what the last photographer had charged them who did this sort of work, and he said that they were never billed for it. I asked him if he was expecting me to work for free as well and he said no. I told him that I'd give him a good price since I wanted an ongoing relationship with them, and quoted $7.50 a shot ($210 total) delivered in three sizes on CDs (two copies, since they are sending one out to an affiliate). The client said he thought that was reasonable. Now I can almost hear the boos and hisses that I did this job so cheap, and it's true. Really, I just wanted to do a good job so that I'd get the much larger follow-on work.
Having agreed on the price, I spent another couple of hours processing, cropping, and sizing the shots into three different sizes (thumbs, websize, and full size). I delivered the CD's and presented them with an invoice. I also asked about scheduling the larger scene work with the lights I built and they said they'd get back to me on that. It's been over a week, but I haven't heard a peep. Previous to my invoice, they'd been hot to trot to get these scenes shot. I'm out of town on vacation this week, but next week I'll ping them again and ask them what's up.
My fear is that they have no appreciation what a photographer's time and skills are worth. I did mention to the client that the full-size scenes for which I built the custom lighting system were going to be priced significantly higher than the tiles sheets since I've already got considerable time and expense into the job. Honestly I wasn't hearing any reassuring words there. Perhaps I called their bluff by invoicing them on the "28 tiles" job and they realize now that the full-scene work is going to cost real money. That would be especially annoying because they mentioned they are making a LOT of money from these tiles. He mentioned some recent orders, and they are way into the 5 figures territory. So it's not like they're on a shoestring budget. Good pictures are vital to their business model and they know this.
So at this point, who knows. I'm going to take previously given advice above, and try to nail them down to a contract next week. If that doesn't fly, I'll pull the lights apart and try to return the pieces to recoup my costs. Lesson learned I guess, although I probably wouldn't do anything differently next time. I'm learning that business is often done in small towns like this with a hand shake. And people flaking out on deals is par for the course. C'est la vie.
Cheers,
-joel
Joel, when you get back be sure to provide them a sample shot from your location lighting setup...that way they can reference it to whatever they are comparing it too... maybe the shots that the managers daughters boyfriend said he would do for free...err, i mean for the price to allow him to date his daughter...ya know what i mean...
This thread is very interesting. I recently did a free commercial shoot and then was asked to quote for more. I quoted above what I normally would and to my surprise, I got the job (and few others after).
So, the underlying theme here is what interested me...quote what you think and before you tell it to them...add a bit more to it.
What is the status on this Joel? Did you get paid? Did you get the bigger job?
By the way, could you have done this with HDR/Enfuse??
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
WildViper
From Nikon D70s > Nikon D300s & D700
Nikon 50/1.8, Tamron 28-75/2.8 1st gen, Nikkor 12-24/4, Nikkor 70-200/2.8 ED VR, SB600, SB900, SB-26 and Gitzo 2 Series Carbon Fiber with Kirk Ballhead
This thread is very interesting. I recently did a free commercial shoot and then was asked to quote for more. I quoted above what I normally would and to my surprise, I got the job (and few others after).
So, the underlying theme here is what interested me...quote what you think and before you tell it to them...add a bit more to it.
What is the status on this Joel? Did you get paid? Did you get the bigger job?
By the way, could you have done this with HDR/Enfuse??
Hi there, thanks for the bump and thinking of me. Ok, time for a status report.
Things are actually progressing with this job, albeit slowly.
First, I did get paid for the 28-tile-shoot. It took a while, but evidently I had submitted the invoice to the wrong partner. I know better now. The upshot is that I feel we now have a working financial relationship.
Status on the big interior shots is a little more complicated. I took a run at using the huge light setup I built on location at the owner's house to photograph his kitchen which is done up in his custom tile. Turns out he has a coffered ceiling, and I could only fit 2 out of my 4 llights in the center of the kitchen. So of course the lighting was uneven, which of course was the problem everyone else has. I'll need to construct a different configuration for my lights to make this work.
I processed my best sample shots by balancing the light as best I could in Photoshop. I also produced an HDR version which helped a lot and looked pretty good. Still, I don't think it's my best work. I sent the shots and a list of three things that needed improvement to my client. I also told him that I would try again in a few weeks after I rebuild the light setup. He answered, and said my "failure" was the best shot he's seen of the kitchen yet. He's psyched to see my followon work.
A day later, he sends me an email saying that he talked it over with his partner (the artistic director among other things) who says he can work with these shots as is! So I emailed him back and told him I'd still have to charge for the photo, even though I acknowledge it's not my best work. I told him the price would be $350 (yes, I can already hear the boos and hisses.) He replied and reiterated that he'll be anxious to see what I do on my next attempt. (In other words, he balked). So....
Lesson learned is that perhaps I shouldn't have volunteered all the flaws in my first attempt and perhaps he would have paid for it. My strategy is to rebuild the light setup when I get a chance, and go back for a reshoot. If I do nail the shot, I think the price will have to go up though. Thoughts?
Thanks and I appreciate all the thoughts and comments to date!
-joel
Lesson learned is that perhaps I shouldn't have volunteered all the flaws in my first attempt and perhaps he would have paid for it. My strategy is to rebuild the light setup when I get a chance, and go back for a reshoot. If I do nail the shot, I think the price will have to go up though. Thoughts?
It sounds as if you are on the right track. There will certainly be more lessons to be learned as you progress.
Keep in mind that the photographer and the client will often see the image in a different frame of mind. We tend to see angles, light, composition and processing. The client sees things that they like or don't like. Simple as that.
If you interrupt that process it will only cause you headaches. Just accept that they like it and move on.
I think you, (all of us) need to be very careful about voicing our thoughts and concerns that we could do better.
I know I could type this post up better tomorrow, should I delay posting?
The client said you gave him the best shot he has received from any of the other photographers. While you think you can do better, and I believe you, I think he would have been satisfied if your price would have been what was originally agreed on. One problem as I see it is you seem to have given him a price after the fact that may have been more that he expected, and then you let him off the hook, (so to speak) by telling him that your shot which he thought was the best he had was a failure and you would do better next time.
Heck, if I were your client I would let you try again. I have nothing to loose.
I think if your giving the client good usable product you should get compensated for it.
Sam, yeah, I kind of blew it for sure. Although, the chronology isn't quite as you stated (not sure it makes a big difference though.) What actually happened was this. After the shoot, I emailed him two sample shots and it was in that email that I explained several items that I wasn't completely satisfied with. He then came back and said the bit about them being the best they've seen. Then the next day, he emailed and made it sound like they wanted to use these shots. Then I gave his the price, and he balked.
But you're right. Unless he's in a big rush to use a shot, he'd be crazy not to wait for my next attempt. Although if I nail the hell out of it, I feel like I should raise the price. I've got to totally rebuild the light system to fit in his funky kitchen. And just that effort alone is worth more than $350. Way more.
Ok, you want pictures? So you want to see my failures? Fine, see if I care.
Here's a typical shot.
I used the shadow/highlights tool to balance out the lighting. Even so, you can still see the glare from the two lights I used which were so close together in the center of the kitchen, that I shoot right between them with very little room. I had almost no light towards the sides of the kitchen. Before I processed it, it really, really looked like crap. It's still crap honestly. What I said in my original email was that I saw three problems. The uneven lighting and glare, a green color cast (those cabs should be white), and some perspective (barrell?) distortion. (I'm actually pretty good at eliminating lens distortion, but this is an odd one. Would a tilt-shift help here?)
Here's a crop from that same shot.
This is one reason I bought the 5DMII. Amazing resolution, I feel.
The tiles are pieces of gemstones infused in copper and other metals in a patented process. This tile probably runs a few hundred bucks a square foot.
The following shot is an HDR version of the same scene to see if that would help balance the light. Honestly, I think it's an improvement, and so did the client. It's also a little tighter crop, so it's hard to compare.
See how nice the colors are to the sides without the light? I want to get those colors all the way across the kitchen. Not washed out, which is what I currently have in the center of the scene. So more lights, but I need to diffuse them more as well.
OK I can see some of the issues. I have a few thoughts (very few but every once in awhile ) I think the main issue is even light not the amount. can you say cover the windows with a while sheet (diffuser) to get a more even light? It doesn't matter if the room is dim, the subject is stationary so longer shutter speeds is fine.
As to the price, you need to determine this but my philosophy on this is simple, If I quote a price I will do my best to do the job for the price quoted. If I think I need to build a lighting set up, include the cost into my pricing and don't get it right the first time it's not the clients fault, it's mine. If the parameters of the project change or there are issues the client didn't tell me about that would be a different story.
I also played with your image a little. here is my result.
Thanks, Sam. Good point on sticking to the quoted figure, although I did give him a range.
Your thoughts on the lighting echo mine. The reason to add more lights is to even out the lighting, not to make it brighter. I diffused the lights with panels made from white rip-stop nylon, but that didn't diffuse them enough. I'm going to try the white sheet trick next. No window lighting, BTW. It's all from my daylight corrected fluorescents, so there's no clashing of light sources.
You did a good job on further reducing the glare in my image. You gonna tell me how you did it, or do I need to bribe you?
Basically I adjusted the perspective and white balance. masked off the highlighted tile with a low opacity brush and adjusted the levels. Then I dodged the darker areas on the hood to produce less contrast between the reflection and the dark areas.
Basically I adjusted the perspective and white balance. masked off the highlighted tile with a low opacity brush and adjusted the levels. Then I dodged the darker areas on the hood to produce less contrast between the reflection and the dark areas.
Comments
After shooting, but before processing, I reviewed the shots with the client who liked them. At that point I said we probably should discuss a fee. I asked what the last photographer had charged them who did this sort of work, and he said that they were never billed for it. I asked him if he was expecting me to work for free as well and he said no. I told him that I'd give him a good price since I wanted an ongoing relationship with them, and quoted $7.50 a shot ($210 total) delivered in three sizes on CDs (two copies, since they are sending one out to an affiliate). The client said he thought that was reasonable. Now I can almost hear the boos and hisses that I did this job so cheap, and it's true. Really, I just wanted to do a good job so that I'd get the much larger follow-on work.
Having agreed on the price, I spent another couple of hours processing, cropping, and sizing the shots into three different sizes (thumbs, websize, and full size). I delivered the CD's and presented them with an invoice. I also asked about scheduling the larger scene work with the lights I built and they said they'd get back to me on that. It's been over a week, but I haven't heard a peep. Previous to my invoice, they'd been hot to trot to get these scenes shot. I'm out of town on vacation this week, but next week I'll ping them again and ask them what's up.
My fear is that they have no appreciation what a photographer's time and skills are worth. I did mention to the client that the full-size scenes for which I built the custom lighting system were going to be priced significantly higher than the tiles sheets since I've already got considerable time and expense into the job. Honestly I wasn't hearing any reassuring words there. Perhaps I called their bluff by invoicing them on the "28 tiles" job and they realize now that the full-scene work is going to cost real money. That would be especially annoying because they mentioned they are making a LOT of money from these tiles. He mentioned some recent orders, and they are way into the 5 figures territory. So it's not like they're on a shoestring budget. Good pictures are vital to their business model and they know this.
So at this point, who knows. I'm going to take previously given advice above, and try to nail them down to a contract next week. If that doesn't fly, I'll pull the lights apart and try to return the pieces to recoup my costs. Lesson learned I guess, although I probably wouldn't do anything differently next time. I'm learning that business is often done in small towns like this with a hand shake. And people flaking out on deals is par for the course. C'est la vie.
Cheers,
-joel
Link to my Smugmug site
These two comments are a direct result of each other.
I understand looking at the long term and structuring the pay to reflect that, but it is always easier to lower prices than to raise them.
Their profit margins have nothing to do with you. You cannot base your prices on what they may or may not profit from selling their products. That is out of your control. Therefor it should be out of your mind.
Whether you believe it, like it, or even intend it, once you agree to take photos for money, you are now a business. Your time has a certain value to it.
Your time value doesn't change if you are taking photos of a matchbox car for Ebay, or a ten million dollar home.
You really need to determine what your time value is. Now you may only be worth $20 an hour, or you may be worth $200 per hour, but that has to be your decision. Never allow the client to dictate what your time is worth.
You should control when and to whom discounts are given. I suggest that you give them to long term clients with proven accounts, but that is only my opinion.
Unless you also plan on being the clients business partner, their profits should never enter into your mind.
They could have the greatest product in the world, with fabulous photos, but that doesn't guarantee success. It certainly isn't your job to worry about it.
If they truly understand this, then you have two jobs.
1. Distinquish the difference in value between good photos and okay photos.
2. Deliver good photos.
Website
I'm not really surprised by this- you're are just another in a series of photographers that have given them photos for free- so why should they have any appreciation for the value and skills of a photographer?
I said in one of my earlier posts to you ,
"If you give away your product for pennies, they will think that's what the product is worth, and then when you out of the blue want to charge $$$$$$$, they will find someone else who will give away the product for pennies.
So don't undervalue yourself and don't undercut other photogs by giving it away for essentially nothing."
So they got a bunch of photos of tiles essentially for free from you- that is, IF they pay you. So you will now walk away, and they will string along the next photographer until they get their next set of photos for free, and on and on.
It's self perpetuating, and it is one of the reasons that photographers ARE so undervalued.
You present yourself as a photographer, you take on a job, you should have a contract in place before you make one click of the shutter.
Hey, at least I billed them. Evidently nobody has done that before. So that's a start. Billing is one thing, but collecting is another. Let's see if they pay my invoice and schedule the larger follow-on shoot. That's where the larger money will be.
Thanks again guys. I appreciate the input.
-joel
Link to my Smugmug site
Hi Joel. This thread is very intersting, and has inspired me to give you my $500 (
You obviously put a lot of work into what you did do, and I know that your talent, brains, and work ethic are worth way more than you think. As a person who makes a living apart from photography, you do not need to be tentative about asking more than you think is fair, and to be willing to walk away if they don't agree. I would also consider getting half up front, and half on delivery.:D
Best wishes,
Dan
http://danielplumer.com/
Facebook Fan Page
Website
Joel, when you get back be sure to provide them a sample shot from your location lighting setup...that way they can reference it to whatever they are comparing it too... maybe the shots that the managers daughters boyfriend said he would do for free...err, i mean for the price to allow him to date his daughter...ya know what i mean...
So, the underlying theme here is what interested me...quote what you think and before you tell it to them...add a bit more to it.
What is the status on this Joel? Did you get paid? Did you get the bigger job?
By the way, could you have done this with HDR/Enfuse??
WildViper
From Nikon D70s > Nikon D300s & D700
Nikon 50/1.8, Tamron 28-75/2.8 1st gen, Nikkor 12-24/4, Nikkor 70-200/2.8 ED VR, SB600, SB900, SB-26 and Gitzo 2 Series Carbon Fiber with Kirk Ballhead
Things are actually progressing with this job, albeit slowly.
First, I did get paid for the 28-tile-shoot. It took a while, but evidently I had submitted the invoice to the wrong partner. I know better now. The upshot is that I feel we now have a working financial relationship.
Status on the big interior shots is a little more complicated. I took a run at using the huge light setup I built on location at the owner's house to photograph his kitchen which is done up in his custom tile. Turns out he has a coffered ceiling, and I could only fit 2 out of my 4 llights in the center of the kitchen. So of course the lighting was uneven, which of course was the problem everyone else has. I'll need to construct a different configuration for my lights to make this work.
I processed my best sample shots by balancing the light as best I could in Photoshop. I also produced an HDR version which helped a lot and looked pretty good. Still, I don't think it's my best work. I sent the shots and a list of three things that needed improvement to my client. I also told him that I would try again in a few weeks after I rebuild the light setup. He answered, and said my "failure" was the best shot he's seen of the kitchen yet. He's psyched to see my followon work.
A day later, he sends me an email saying that he talked it over with his partner (the artistic director among other things) who says he can work with these shots as is! So I emailed him back and told him I'd still have to charge for the photo, even though I acknowledge it's not my best work. I told him the price would be $350 (yes, I can already hear the boos and hisses.) He replied and reiterated that he'll be anxious to see what I do on my next attempt. (In other words, he balked). So....
Lesson learned is that perhaps I shouldn't have volunteered all the flaws in my first attempt and perhaps he would have paid for it. My strategy is to rebuild the light setup when I get a chance, and go back for a reshoot. If I do nail the shot, I think the price will have to go up though. Thoughts?
Thanks and I appreciate all the thoughts and comments to date!
-joel
Link to my Smugmug site
It sounds as if you are on the right track. There will certainly be more lessons to be learned as you progress.
Keep in mind that the photographer and the client will often see the image in a different frame of mind. We tend to see angles, light, composition and processing. The client sees things that they like or don't like. Simple as that.
If you interrupt that process it will only cause you headaches. Just accept that they like it and move on.
Website
-joel
Link to my Smugmug site
I can't wait no longer.................................What's the latest word?
Oh, and before I would dimantal your light set up I would test it out. If say it really works well you would have a unique service to offer.
Sam
Sam, I just posted an update yesterday. Look up a couple of posts.
Or just click here: http://www.dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=1131097&postcount=41
Cheers, and thanks for thinking of me.
-joel
Link to my Smugmug site
I done missed that post.
I would love to see the shot you did take.
I think you, (all of us) need to be very careful about voicing our thoughts and concerns that we could do better.
I know I could type this post up better tomorrow, should I delay posting?
The client said you gave him the best shot he has received from any of the other photographers. While you think you can do better, and I believe you, I think he would have been satisfied if your price would have been what was originally agreed on. One problem as I see it is you seem to have given him a price after the fact that may have been more that he expected, and then you let him off the hook, (so to speak) by telling him that your shot which he thought was the best he had was a failure and you would do better next time.
Heck, if I were your client I would let you try again. I have nothing to loose.
I think if your giving the client good usable product you should get compensated for it.
Sam
But you're right. Unless he's in a big rush to use a shot, he'd be crazy not to wait for my next attempt. Although if I nail the hell out of it, I feel like I should raise the price. I've got to totally rebuild the light system to fit in his funky kitchen. And just that effort alone is worth more than $350. Way more.
Ok, you want pictures? So you want to see my failures? Fine, see if I care.
Here's a typical shot.
I used the shadow/highlights tool to balance out the lighting. Even so, you can still see the glare from the two lights I used which were so close together in the center of the kitchen, that I shoot right between them with very little room. I had almost no light towards the sides of the kitchen. Before I processed it, it really, really looked like crap. It's still crap honestly. What I said in my original email was that I saw three problems. The uneven lighting and glare, a green color cast (those cabs should be white), and some perspective (barrell?) distortion. (I'm actually pretty good at eliminating lens distortion, but this is an odd one. Would a tilt-shift help here?)
Here's a crop from that same shot.
This is one reason I bought the 5DMII. Amazing resolution, I feel.
The tiles are pieces of gemstones infused in copper and other metals in a patented process. This tile probably runs a few hundred bucks a square foot.
The following shot is an HDR version of the same scene to see if that would help balance the light. Honestly, I think it's an improvement, and so did the client. It's also a little tighter crop, so it's hard to compare.
See how nice the colors are to the sides without the light? I want to get those colors all the way across the kitchen. Not washed out, which is what I currently have in the center of the scene. So more lights, but I need to diffuse them more as well.
Cheers,
-joel
Link to my Smugmug site
OK I can see some of the issues. I have a few thoughts (very few but every once in awhile
As to the price, you need to determine this but my philosophy on this is simple, If I quote a price I will do my best to do the job for the price quoted. If I think I need to build a lighting set up, include the cost into my pricing and don't get it right the first time it's not the clients fault, it's mine. If the parameters of the project change or there are issues the client didn't tell me about that would be a different story.
I also played with your image a little. here is my result.
Sam
Your thoughts on the lighting echo mine. The reason to add more lights is to even out the lighting, not to make it brighter. I diffused the lights with panels made from white rip-stop nylon, but that didn't diffuse them enough. I'm going to try the white sheet trick next. No window lighting, BTW. It's all from my daylight corrected fluorescents, so there's no clashing of light sources.
You did a good job on further reducing the glare in my image. You gonna tell me how you did it, or do I need to bribe you?
Really appreciate your input!
-joel
Link to my Smugmug site
Basically I adjusted the perspective and white balance. masked off the highlighted tile with a low opacity brush and adjusted the levels. Then I dodged the darker areas on the hood to produce less contrast between the reflection and the dark areas.
Sam
Wow, I've got a lot to learn.
Link to my Smugmug site