Masking Awkward Images

canon400d

I have just visited Edinburgh Zoo and I have taken loads of shots. I am aware of how to work masking etc thanks to Pathfinder and Tony. However, when I came across a situation with an image like this with the crown and hairs. I just don't know how to get around this one. I was wanting to sort out a different background, or whatever you would advise.
Regards
Bob

pathfinder

Masking fine detail like these feathers or hair or smoke are always challenging, and can be tedious, or time consuming, and can be less than satisfying even after you are done. The retouch pros do it all the time, but they also get paid for it as well.

The best method with only Photoshop is to examine each of the 10 color channels - R, G, B, L, a, b, C,M,Y, K to look for one that has a significant contrast between it and the background. You copy that channel to an alpha channel, load it up and use a curve or a paint brush to edit the alpha channel to create the contrast you need between the selected area and the non-selected area, and then use that as you mask for editing. Sometimes you have to use more than one color channel and then merge the two alpha channels together for your final mask.

Sometimes - if you are lucky and the background is pretty much the same color - you can use the Erase tool to erase the background away from your feathered area.

TonyCooper

You know that I haven't been reluctant to provide assistance to you in Photoshop projects in the past, but there are times when the advice has to be "Choose another shot". Shots like this are the reason I keep my camera set on continuous mode, and shoot several shots of the same subject if I think it's going to be a worthwhile image.

Unless you simply want an exercise in PS technique, the shot has too much of a background problem to spend time on.

Here's your friend's cousin, who is in residence at the Brevard Zoo in Melbourne, Florida:

pathfinder

Tony, I was hoping you would show us a quick and easy way to select the bird out of that background that Bob dislikes:D

Some links that might be useful for masking hair, etc

http://www.photoshopforphotographers.com/pscs2/download/movie-04.pdf

http://www.photoshopsupport.com/elements/tutorials/extract-hair/masking-tutorial.html this is similar to what I suggested above - creating a mask from a channel


http://www.creativepro.com/files/story_images/ExtractHair.pdf

http://www.layersmagazine.com/masking-hair-in-photoshop-cs3.html


http://creativesuitepodcast.com/index.php?post_id=433704

http://www.bestechvideos.com/2009/03/18/adobe-cs-masking-hair-in-photoshop-cs4

http://www.photoshoptalent.com/photoshop-tutorials/pst/709/Deadly-Chess---hair-masking.html

canon400d

pathfinder wrote:

Tony, I was hoping you would show us a quick and easy way to select the bird out of that background that Bob dislikes:D

Some links that might be useful for masking hair, etc

http://www.photoshopforphotographers.com/pscs2/download/movie-04.pdf

http://www.photoshopsupport.com/elements/tutorials/extract-hair/masking-tutorial.html this is similar to what I suggested above - creating a mask from a channel


http://www.creativepro.com/files/story_images/ExtractHair.pdf

http://www.layersmagazine.com/masking-hair-in-photoshop-cs3.html


http://creativesuitepodcast.com/index.php?post_id=433704

http://www.bestechvideos.com/2009/03/18/adobe-cs-masking-hair-in-photoshop-cs4

http://www.photoshoptalent.com/photoshop-tutorials/pst/709/Deadly-Chess---hair-masking.html

Hi Pathfinder,
I think I really have set myself a challenge here. I have had a quick look at the links you sent me and I particularly liked the third link down Xtract hair in Adobe Photoshop. However, I could not find the Extract links in CS4 to do the few steps to replace a background. As I say it appears quite a quick method with very few steps etc.
Yes Tony, I wish I had used continuous mode on this shot. I did take quite a lot of shots of a Sumatran tiger and I have came up against the same problem with its whiskers in order to change a background. Thanks to you both for your kind help which I truly appreciate.
Regards
Bob

rutt

I had a business plan for outsourcing this sort of mask making to someplace where salaries are low and skill levels and patience are high. In fact I think there are some places that will do it. It's really time consuming.

Seriously, much more than you ever wanted to know about how to make this happen: here and here. Unfortunately, I don't think there is a product with all this stuff, at least not one out of Hollywood for less than $100k. You have to do it yourself in Matlab.

Ann McRae

Hmmm, there is this tutorial on making complex selections.


Rutt - outsourcing - maybe the wedding editor folks would be right for this

edit dot com ?

ann

anonymouscuban

Ann McRae wrote:

Hmmm, there is this tutorial on making complex selections.


Rutt - outsourcing - maybe the wedding editor folks would be right for this

edit dot com ?

ann

Ann,

That is an awesome link. Thanks so much for posting it. Really is going to make my life easier.

canon400d

anonymouscuban wrote:

Ann,

That is an awesome link. Thanks so much for posting it. Really is going to make my life easier.[/quote

Hi Ann,
That is an excellent tutorial. However, I have tried it with my photo but I think there are too many colours in the background to cope with as I cannot get the finer details on the birds head. If anyone can do it this way I would appreciate it very much indeed.
Regards
Bob

pathfinder

I watched that video, and using the Color Select tool to select a tan brunette in a brown bikini, in front of a blue sky and blue green water is duck soup, but highly unrealistic. Brown, tan, brunette are all versions of red or yellow and very easy to select separately from blue and green.

But as Bob noticed, that will not work when your subject has the same tones and hues as the background.

Bob, I think the Extract tool has been removed or hidden in CS4. Here is an explanation from Adobe - http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/detail.jsp?ftpID=4048

You have to install it your self.

The Quick Select Tool has made the Extract tool redundant for me, Bob.

I think if you get a chance to shoot that bird again, I would get very, very low and shoot up at it silhouetted against a clear, deep blue sky. The the yelllow channel or the red channel will be a good place to start for your mask. Against the background you have, it will take a lot of hand work to be successful I suspect.

As I said in my first post, the technique used frequently is to choose a channel with the most contrast for the hair, and then use that to build the mask.

TonyCooper

pathfinder wrote:

Tony, I was hoping you would show us a quick and easy way to select the bird out of that background that Bob dislikes:D

You may have misunderstood. I have worked with Bob before on other projects. I've provided screen shots of steps (by email) of the technique I use in CS4 and explanatory notes. I've provide enough help in the past that Bob has promised to stand the first round when he next visits Florida. Since Bob is Scottish, that indicates true appreciation.

My point here was that there are certain images that can be improved in Photoshop, and certain images that are just too much trouble to bother with. Unless, of course, you want to tackle the project as a practice and training exercise.

I'm fairly adept with Photoshop, but I would not take on dropping out that bird's background. It would have to be a great photo, and an irreplaceable shot, to make it worth the time.

Photoshop is a fantastic tool, but we shouldn't overlook the basic premise of photography: Capture good pictures in the first place. The primary advantage of shooting digital is that we can shoot almost an unlimited number of images without incurring any cost. Shoot and move, shoot and move, and shoot and move again to capture from right angle. Change the settings and do it all over again if you really want to ensure that you have a good image.

If we do this, we usually end up with a good image that doesn't need extensive Photoshopping. There are times you just can't get the right angle, and then Photoshop comes into play.

pathfinder

Tony,

I was jesting!!:D

I know just how hard that would be to mask. Is it possible to do, yes; worth the effort, I seriously doubt it.

I would reshoot that bird from down low to get a nice even sky behind it to help use the blue channel for the mask.

TonyCooper

canon400d wrote:

Hi Pathfinder,
I think I really have set myself a challenge here. I have had a quick look at the links you sent me and I particularly liked the third link down Xtract hair in Adobe Photoshop. However, I could not find the Extract links in CS4 to do the few steps to replace a background. As I say it appears quite a quick method with very few steps etc.

The Extract method was in Photoshop 7.0 as a drop-down under Filters. I used to use it, but I jumped from PS 7.0 to CS4, and it's not in CS4. I don't know where along the line Adobe dropped it. I don't feel it has any advantages over Layer Masks or Quick Masks, but I guess the people who liked it used it because they learned to use it when there weren't better ways to do a knock-out.

TonyCooper

"I think if you get a chance to shoot that bird again, I would get very, very low and shoot up at it silhouetted against a clear, deep blue sky."

The image I posted, of the same breed of bird, was also taken at a zoo. At the Melbourne (FL) zoo, you walk around on a wooden boardwalk and the animals are usually lower than you are. You have to get low in order not to shoot down on them. You can shoot up with a sky background if you are photographing birds in trees or giraffes, but animals and birds on the ground are a problem. Here's one taken that same day where I could shoot up

canon400d

TonyCooper wrote:

"I think if you get a chance to shoot that bird again, I would get very, very low and shoot up at it silhouetted against a clear, deep blue sky."

The image I posted, of the same breed of bird, was also taken at a zoo. At the Melbourne (FL) zoo, you walk around on a wooden boardwalk and the animals are usually lower than you are. You have to get low in order not to shoot down on them. You can shoot up with a sky background if you are photographing birds in trees or giraffes, but animals and birds on the ground are a problem. Here's one taken that same day where I could shoot up

First of all I will make my remarks to Pathfinder and then Tony. I downloaded the CS4 plugin for the Extract tool but it would not appear in CS4.
I checked CS3 and the Extract tool is under the Filters. I followed the instructions within the link you sent and they are very short using the edge highlighter tool and then the paint bucket. As I said I followed the instructions by the letter and I have tried several different photos and I find when I hit Preview I find a lot of distasteful smudgy marks around the image. If I could get a clean image like the one of the girl in the link I think this is an excellent way to do it.
When I took the shot of the bird I was inside and shooting through glass and I was unable to position myself to get a better shot. I had to get down to get the shot I got. I agree with what you and Tony say about getting the background right.
Yes Tony my friend I am still going to buy you that pint for all your kind help you have given me. I am English living here in Scotland since I retired so I am sure you will be more reassured. You are quite right in what you say about the background in this shot. It would be more trouble than it is worth. I really appreciate all the instructions and tips you have given and I have them all in a folder and I familiarise myself with them on a regular basis.
I like that last image are they a couple of Sea Eagles?
Regards
Bob

TonyCooper

Regarding the Extract Filter...I tried it in PS 7, managed to use it effectively in some practice images, but never was able to really master it. It requires going back-and-forth between the work and showing what has been accomplished. I never really thought it was all that useful compared to Layer Masking an Quick Masks. I found the undo process very difficult.

Regarding bird identity...I don't know, but I think they were vultures or in the vulture family. Some kind of carrion bird. I kept it because I liked the composition of the shot.

The Melbourne (FL) zoo is an open plan zoo where you observe most of the animals in what is close to their natural habitat. Some are behind glass or enclosed by caging, but most are in the open. In the small bird area, you walk into a large, screened area so the cage doesn't separate you from the bird.

The real difficulty for the photographer there is that you are often 10 feet or so above the animal and have to shoot down on them. That's not the perspective we like.

It is a zoo, though, and not a photographer's studio. The layout is for the enjoyment of the average observer.

canon400d

TonyCooper wrote:

Regarding the Extract Filter...I tried it in PS 7, managed to use it effectively in some practice images, but never was able to really master it. It requires going back-and-forth between the work and showing what has been accomplished. I never really thought it was all that useful compared to Layer Masking an Quick Masks. I found the undo process very difficult.

Regarding bird identity...I don't know, but I think they were vultures or in the vulture family. Some kind of carrion bird. I kept it because I liked the composition of the shot.

The Melbourne (FL) zoo is an open plan zoo where you observe most of the animals in what is close to their natural habitat. Some are behind glass or enclosed by caging, but most are in the open. In the small bird area, you walk into a large, screened area so the cage doesn't separate you from the bird.

The real difficulty for the photographer there is that you are often 10 feet or so above the animal and have to shoot down on them. That's not the perspective we like.

It is a zoo, though, and not a photographer's studio. The layout is for the enjoyment of the average observer.

Yeah Tony, I thought the Extract was gonna be an easy way out but no such luck the tutorial appeared to give all the answers. As I say after hitting Preview I ended up with a lot of smudgy areas and I had covered those areas in the initial process, so I don't know. I even tried with a Sumatran tiger image and a few hairs around its mouth and once again no good. Never mind one has to try.
Whatever the birds are Tony I like the shot. I know we have to make the best of things when we visit a zoo but I find it so interesting and there are challenges enroute as you well know with that damned Crane bird. I will certainly remember next time to shoot continuous and all the other tips you have given me.
Regards
Bob

canon400d

canon400d wrote:

Yeah Tony, I thought the Extract was gonna be an easy way out but no such luck the tutorial appeared to give all the answers. As I say after hitting Preview I ended up with a lot of smudgy areas and I had covered those areas in the initial process, so I don't know. I even tried with a Sumatran tiger image and a few hairs around its mouth and once again no good. Never mind one has to try.
Whatever the birds are Tony I like the shot. I know we have to make the best of things when we visit a zoo but I find it so interesting and there are challenges enroute as you well know with that damned Crane bird. I will certainly remember next time to shoot continuous and all the other tips you have given me.
Regards
Bob

Hi Pathfinder and Tony,
Are we saying in Extract there is no way around getting rid of those smudgy areas after hitting Preview?
Regards
Bob

TonyCooper

canon400d wrote:

Hi Pathfinder and Tony,
Are we saying in Extract there is no way around getting rid of those smudgy areas after hitting Preview?
Regards
Bob

There's always a way, but since I've switched to CS4, and no longer use the Extract Filter, I've forgotten. Not that I was that adept with this function in the first place.

However, if you exit Extract and save the file as a .psd, can't you come back with the regular Eraser tool and clean up the image? I'd duplicate the layer and work on a new layer. If it works, you flatten and keep. If it doesn't, you delete the layer and re-think the problem.

pathfinder

I have not used the Extract tool since the advent of the Quick Select Tool, and I'll bet I am not alone.

It always seemed to leave me with poorly defined, smudged edges as you mention.

You can duplicate your selection after using the Extract tool, with ctrl-j, and that seems to help clear up the edges somewhat - I never understood why exactly. You can actually press ctrl-j several time and then collapse all the layers you have created.

Stick with the Quick Select tool, or the Pen tool and you will be happier, I believe.

canon400d

pathfinder wrote:

I have not used the Extract tool since the advent of the Quick Select Tool, and I'll bet I am not alone.

It always seemed to leave me with poorly defined, smudged edges as you mention.

You can duplicate your selection after using the Extract tool, with ctrl-j, and that seems to help clear up the edges somewhat - I never understood why exactly. You can actually press ctrl-j several time and then collapse all the layers you have created.

Stick with the Quick Select tool, or the Pen tool and you will be happier, I believe.

Thanks Pathfinder and Tony that has certainly answered it for me. I need not go any further down that road.
Regards
Bob