For you old Film guys... A Q?

Candid Arts

So I'm wondering if any of you that have done your own developing and darkroom work have every heard of or done any "dying" of the paper?

I was doing some work in the darkroom the other day, playing with some photograms, and I developed my paper, all looked fine, then I brought it out into the light. BLAM! PINK! There was pink where I had placed some pieces for my photogram. My teacher had figured that I had dyed the paper. I played with it today again and got some interesting results, after many trial and errors.

Here's what I'm doing - but don't steal it if it's new:barb - I'm spraying down multiple colors of food dye on the photo paper. I let it sit for about a minute and a half, then develop the paper (f/5.6 for about 15 seconds). I run the paper through the developer (2 min), stop bath (30 sec), then fixer (2 min). I then do a first rinse (5 min EXACTLY...no more), then final rinse (5 min EXACTLY...no more), remove and dry. I've been putting red, blue, green and yellow food dye on the paper, the only color that appears is the red (which is more of a pink or magenta ish hue). Today I found out a way to keep the blue as well as the pink. I tried playing around with using different filters in the color head. Normally, Magenta is set at 25, Blue set to 0, and yellow set to 0. I tried 0 Magenta, 55 blue - 205 magenta, 205 blue, a few combinations... Everytime, magenta is the only colors that stays, can't figure out why. The green at one point even stayed, but it was blue too, not green.

So, basically if anyone has heard of this or done it, I'd like to know. Also, if you have and/or haven't, any ideas on why only the pink color would stay and none of the other colors even with changing the color filters on the enlarger? One other note, when I just put it in the first rinse for a minute and bring into the light for a preview, the blue is very vibrant, but once I put it through the rinses, the pink stays, but the blue goes away. So today, I did just blue and red food dye on the paper, developed it, and put it in the first rinse for like only a minute, then let the paper air dry instead of putting it through the dryer. The pink and blue stayed this time, so I was excited.

Ok, that was a lot of info...any help/ideas/thoughts/random blah blah?

Thanks.

Oh and P.S. It's a B&W darkroom. All the chemicals and what not are for B&W only...

ChatKat

Photograms! I can smell the chemicals!
WOW - yes, we did that in High School Photography in Darkroom. I remember making a photogram with seashells and they were pinkish. I thought maybe the chemical was recycled so much, but it also could have been from the processing. Gee, I took that class 35 years ago.

pathfinder

Never tried Easter Egg dyes on B&W paper.

What kind of paper?

Resin coated, or matte paper, or what?

Some dyes may be affected by pH quite significantly.

Candid Arts

ChatKat wrote:

WOW - yes, we did that in High School Photography in Darkroom. I remember making a photogram with seashells and they were pinkish. I thought maybe the chemical was recycled so much, but it also could have been from the processing. Gee, I took that class 35 years ago.

The seashells left a pinkish color too? Well this is like SUPER VIBRANT pink, unless I rinse it too long, then it faded. This was with a fresh batch of developer btw...

Candid Arts

pathfinder wrote:

Never tried Easter Egg dyes on B&W paper.

What kind of paper?

Resin coated, or matte paper, or what?

Some dyes may be affected by pH quite significantly.

Not Easter Egg dyes, but I'm sure it's the same stuff...I just got some generic food coloring from Safeway.

Illford B&W paper, MultiCoated RC Paper w/ a Pearl finish.

I think the B&W developer we use is the Kodak D-76...? If that's of any consequence.

pathfinder

Try a matte paper, I'll bet it will work a lot better than a resin coated paper. I think that is why the dye just rolls off.

You may find the dye works better in an acetic acid stop bath after the developer. Some dyes fix better if exposed to a mordant

Candid Arts

pathfinder wrote:

Try a matte paper, I'll bet it will work a lot better than a resin coated paper. I think that is why the dye just rolls off.

You may find the dye works better in an acetic acid stop bath after the developer. Some dyes fix better if exposed to a mordant

The paper that I first figured this out on was a RC paper with a satin finish. I was reccomneded trying a fiber based paper today, as the fiber would soak up the dye a bit better. But I don't have any fiber based paper, nor do I know the process for it (but I can find out if I just ask my teacher). So your suggesting a RC paper with a matte finish?

I'll figure out what kind of stop bath we are using as I'm not sure. I'll look into a mordant as well.

Thanks for the tips.

pathfinder

I have not printed B&W in my darkroom for 20 years or so.

I think you want to avoid resin coated paper, ( most Polycontrast paper is RC paper)

I think the resin coating interferes with the absorption of the dye, unlike with a matte paper, like a rag or cotton based paper.

Ask you teacher

I don't think the paper is developed any differently - Dektol or what ever you are using. A few drops of acetic acid makes a decent stop bath as I recall. Wiki seems to agree with me

You might try a stop bath with tannic acid in addition to acetic to help fix your dye to the paper. I have not done this, but it makes sense chemically as a mordant.

DJane

I remember someone doing something similar with teas and coffees and wine on a rag paper for a project. Wasn't me, though, so I'm no help as to the process.
Hmm. Caffenol? I think. Anywho, I did a cursory google-ing, and found that there's a flickr group called 'homemade soup' or some such where they discuss make-your-own developers. Might be worth a look, if you're in the darkroom anyway.
Have fun!

Candid Arts

DJane wrote:

I remember someone doing something similar with teas and coffees and wine on a rag paper for a project. Wasn't me, though, so I'm no help as to the process.
Hmm. Caffenol? I think. Anywho, I did a cursory google-ing, and found that there's a flickr group called 'homemade soup' or some such where they discuss make-your-own developers. Might be worth a look, if you're in the darkroom anyway.
Have fun!

My teacher heard of and suggested the using of tea for an earlier...failed attempt at this, but once we figured out the rinsing process to hold the pink dye, I nipped that in the bud.

I'm going to try some a fiber based paper as suggested to see if that holds the dye, but I think the biggest part is going to be the checmical to hold the dye into place. I'll talk with my teacher on Friday, unless I see her sooner and ask about the chemical part of it all.

Thanks everyone.

So has anyone seen any work in history of anything like this? Actually dying the B&W paper in a B&W darkroom to make bright vivid colors appear? I don't mean anything like painting the photo afterwards, as that has been done...but entirely in the dark room...

ziggy53

Candid Arts wrote:

My teacher heard of and suggested the using of tea for an earlier...failed attempt at this, but once we figured out the rinsing process to hold the pink dye, I nipped that in the bud.

I'm going to try some a fiber based paper as suggested to see if that holds the dye, but I think the biggest part is going to be the checmical to hold the dye into place. I'll talk with my teacher on Friday, unless I see her sooner and ask about the chemical part of it all.

Thanks everyone.

So has anyone seen any work in history of anything like this? Actually dying the B&W paper in a B&W darkroom to make bright vivid colors appear? I don't mean anything like painting the photo afterwards, as that has been done...but entirely in the dark room...

Color tinting is almost as old as photography itself, but it was usually painted on by hand and localized to regions of a B+W print to imply or indicate the colors of the subject before color photography was practical.

One problem I think you will encounter using the dyes you would find in a grocery store is that of color fastness. I suspect that these dyes are not designed to resist the effects of UV light and oxidation. The result over time is unpredictable but I suspect limited to a few years before visible color shift and fading.

Have you also considered using the dyes after final rinse to achieve a higher level of color saturation? This might affect the longevity of the print image itself but it might yield its own interesting effects.

Art Scott

Marshall makes a whole line of photographic dyes and tints.......

here is an article you may find worth while on photograhic tinting.

Candid Arts

ziggy53 wrote:

Color tinting is almost as old as photography itself, but it was usually painted on by hand and localized to regions of a B+W print to imply or indicate the colors of the subject before color photography was practical.

One problem I think you will encounter using the dyes you would find in a grocery store is that of color fastness. I suspect that these dyes are not designed to resist the effects of UV light and oxidation. The result over time is unpredictable but I suspect limited to a few years before visible color shift and fading.

Have you also considered using the dyes after final rinse to achieve a higher level of color saturation? This might affect the longevity of the print image itself but it might yield its own interesting effects.

I'm looking at dying the paper pre-development vs tinting or painting the paper post development.

Good point on the color fastness though of the food dye.

Art Scott wrote:

Marshall makes a whole line of photographic dyes and tints.......

here is an article you may find worth while on photograhic tinting.

Thanks for the links. Interesting stuff, however as stated, I'm working on dying the paper pre-development vs post. Running all the dyes, paper, etc... through the development process and the paper that comes out of the rinse is the final piece. No further treatment necessary.

I know there has been a lot of color work done post development once the print has been rinsed and dried, but I'm looking for proof in history of dying the paper pre-development. I'll try and get some scans, or at least take a picture of the prints I've been doing to show some results. I haven't been "making anything" with the food dye, just abstract "paintings" if you will, but photograms with food dye.

Art Scott

Candid Arts wrote:

I'm looking at dying the paper pre-development vs tinting or painting the paper post development.

Good point on the color fastness though of the food dye.



Thanks for the links. Interesting stuff, however as stated, I'm working on dying the paper pre-development vs post. Running all the dyes, paper, etc... through the development process and the paper that comes out of the rinse is the final piece. No further treatment necessary.

I know there has been a lot of color work done post development once the print has been rinsed and dried, but I'm looking for proof in history of dying the paper pre-development. I'll try and get some scans, or at least take a picture of the prints I've been doing to show some results. I haven't been "making anything" with the food dye, just abstract "paintings" if you will, but photograms with food dye.

You may find if youdo a little googleing the tiniting of photos that the reason the tinting is done post is due to the stop bath.....acetic acid is probably washing the effects opf the food dye off the paper......food dye which by law has to edible is not a permanent dye at all....cookies and cake left out in the sun will bleach from the sun light in just a few days....
Pre-mixed stop baths (kodak indicator stop may have less effect than if your using acetic acid and diluting yourself or if the teacher is diluting........you may want to try a simple water stop and then dye prior to fixing and then the second water bath.........water will stop the deveoper it is just not as fast or uniform as a chemical stop bath.

Even if this works and you get a better coverage of your dye....it will soon fade from the light.....even house hold lighting can cause fading.

Candid Arts

Art Scott wrote:

You may find if youdo a little googleing the tiniting of photos that the reason the tinting is done post is due to the stop bath.....acetic acid is probably washing the effects opf the food dye off the paper......food dye which by law has to edible is not a permanent dye at all....cookies and cake left out in the sun will bleach from the sun light in just a few days....
Pre-mixed stop baths (kodak indicator stop may have less effect than if your using acetic acid and diluting yourself or if the teacher is diluting........you may want to try a simple water stop and then dye prior to fixing and then the second water bath.........water will stop the deveoper it is just not as fast or uniform as a chemical stop bath.

Even if this works and you get a better coverage of your dye....it will soon fade from the light.....even house hold lighting can cause fading.

Good point. Our stop bath is concentrated in the bottle, then we dilute it (1:1). So maybe I should try using just water and leaving in the stop for a longer time and moving the water around a lot over the photo to get a good solid stop?

Also...what would you think about using a dye that is used for dying t-shirts (tie dye) or something?

Art Scott

Candid Arts wrote:

Good point. Our stop bath is concentrated in the bottle, then we dilute it (1:1). So maybe I should try using just water and leaving in the stop for a longer time and moving the water around a lot over the photo to get a good solid stop?

Also...what would you think about using a dye that is used for dying t-shirts (tie dye) or something?

I think you meant to say not leave in the stop bath....just use a water stop bath instead........

RIT Dye....is cheap and i doubt you will get a very good response from it......but again as was saidearlier ifyou stop using RC paper and go to Fiber Based it might work better for you....the draw back to a fiber based paper is you need a blotter book and some weight on the blotter book to keep the photos from curling......you cannot hang to dry fiber based paper or it will curl up on you......if you have a motorized dryer then you can dry fiber based papers that way also.

I still suggest you go with an actual photo tinting process as these dyes were made for tinting photos........

Candid Arts

Art Scott wrote:

I think you meant to say not leave in the stop bath....just use a water stop bath instead........

RIT Dye....is cheap and i doubt you will get a very good response from it......but again as was saidearlier ifyou stop using RC paper and go to Fiber Based it might work better for you....the draw back to a fiber based paper is you need a blotter book and some weight on the blotter book to keep the photos from curling......you cannot hang to dry fiber based paper or it will curl up on you......if you have a motorized dryer then you can dry fiber based papers that way also.

I still suggest you go with an actual photo tinting process as these dyes were made for tinting photos........

Yeah that's what I meant, leave it in the water bath (as a stop).

I'm going to try some fiber based papers this week. How we do the fiber based at school is let air dry on racks, then we have a hot press thing for flattening it back out. I've never done fiber paper, so we'll see how this goes, but my teacher told me today how to do it. So we'll see. I might look into the RIT dyes, or something similar but not as cheap, depending on how the fiber based papers work with the food dye and using the water bath as well.

I really want to stay away from doing post development tinting or painting as that's all been done before. I'm looking to figure this out so as to hopefully have found something new as that's an issue I've been struggling with.

Thanks for all the help, tips, and thoughts. They have been very helpful.