PW Mini TT1

NikolaiNikolai Registered Users Posts: 19,035 Major grins
edited April 24, 2009 in Accessories
While playing around the recent firmware update I found rather interesting effect: my ProFoto Compact-R strobes (with a PW unit built-in) behave quite differently from AB units connected to the regular PW Plus II.
Moving hypersync slider all the way to the left (-2500) lead to a clear picture with ProFoto with the shutter speed up to 1/400(!) :huh and only a slightest hint of shadow in the lower 5% of the frame at 1/500(!!) :huh :huh - frame would be still totally usable. And that on my 5D Mark II, which has regular sync speed of only 1/200 and even with hyper sync engaged was only supposed to work up to 1/250...
However, on the PW Plus II + AB the same setting lead to a huge dark shadow on the upper part of the frame. :-(
It's getting late now, but I'm intending to play around a little bit more and find a common ground for all my flashes and strobes....

However, the very idea of having studio strobes at 1/500 is rather appealing (as you know I like to make my subjects jump, so it would help to freeze the action:-). I'm also gonna check my 50D and see how far its Super X Sync goes... :wink
"May the f/stop be with you!"

Comments

  • Scott_QuierScott_Quier Registered Users Posts: 6,524 Major grins
    edited April 21, 2009
    In the "for what it's worth" column, I know for a fact that the 1/200 x-sync speed of the XTi is real. I shot a wedding a short while ago with a lady with an XTi and she had mistakenly set her shutter speed to 1/250 .... not a goodness.

    I'll be interested to see what you get from your 50D. For outside portraits, that could be some very useful information.
    Scott
    My Photos
    Thoughts on photographing a wedding, How to post a picture, AF Microadjustments?, Light Scoop
    Equipment List - Check my profile
  • ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 24,131 moderator
    edited April 21, 2009
    Nikolai wrote:
    While playing around the recent firmware update I found rather interesting effect: my ProFoto Compact-R strobes (with a PW unit built-in) behave quite differently from AB units connected to the regular PW Plus II.
    Moving hypersync slider all the way to the left (-2500) lead to a clear picture with ProFoto with the shutter speed up to 1/400(!) eek7.gif and only a slightest hint of shadow in the lower 5% of the frame at 1/500(!!) eek7.gifeek7.gif - frame would be still totally usable. And that on my 5D Mark II, which has regular sync speed of only 1/200 and even with hyper sync engaged was only supposed to work up to 1/250...
    However, on the PW Plus II + AB the same setting lead to a huge dark shadow on the upper part of the frame. :-(
    It's getting late now, but I'm intending to play around a little bit more and find a common ground for all my flashes and strobes....

    However, the very idea of having studio strobes at 1/500 is rather appealing (as you know I like to make my subjects jump, so it would help to freeze the action:-). I'm also gonna check my 50D and see how far its Super X Sync goes... mwink.gif

    Nik,

    I believe what you are experiencing is the ability of the big flashes to sustain flash for a longer period than the speedlights. Understand that the focal plane shutter still has to traverse the image frame at a fixed speed, only the slit width is changed to achieve the effect of a shorter shutter speed. In other words, a focal plane shutter is not the best way to stop action.

    See the following for a more complete explanation:

    http://webs.lanset.com/rcochran/flash/hss.html

    For best motion stopping ability you should use either an electronic shutter camera capable of extremely short duration or a flash unit capable of extremely short duration. (This can include multiple flashes ganged and synchronized to boost total output.)

    http://www.rpphoto.com/howto/hummer/humguide1.asp
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • NikolaiNikolai Registered Users Posts: 19,035 Major grins
    edited April 21, 2009
    ziggy53 wrote:
    Nik,
    I believe what you are experiencing is the ability of the big flashes to sustain flash for a longer period than the speedlights. Understand that the focal plane shutter still has to traverse the image frame at a fixed speed, only the slit width is changed to achieve the effect of a shorter shutter speed. In other words, a focal plane shutter is not the best way to stop action.
    Ziggy,
    I understand all that, and I agree, it's probably a longer flash duration. Still kinda intersting that 5D2 is capable of syncing at 1/500s. I wonder if anybody can confirm my findings...headscratch.gif
    "May the f/stop be with you!"
  • ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 24,131 moderator
    edited April 21, 2009
    Nikolai wrote:
    Ziggy,
    I understand all that, and I agree, it's probably a longer flash duration. Still kinda intersting that 5D2 is capable of syncing at 1/500s. I wonder if anybody can confirm my findings...headscratch.gif

    I too find it interesting and it would provide additional control over ambient light.

    It probably will not help with "... having studio strobes at 1/500 is rather appealing (as you know I like to make my subjects jump, so it would help to freeze the action:-)."
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • NikolaiNikolai Registered Users Posts: 19,035 Major grins
    edited April 21, 2009
    ziggy53 wrote:
    I too find it interesting and it would provide additional control over ambient light.
    For the outdoor shooting it would be huge.. When fighting SoCal middday sun on the beach I need every millisecond I can shave off..:-). And even if only works for ProFotos and not ABs - I'm cool with it too. I don't need all my lights outdoors...
    It probably will not help with "... having studio strobes at 1/500 is rather appealing (as you know I like to make my subjects jump, so it would help to freeze the action:-)."
    Well, I was OK even with 1/250, and 1/500 is twice as fast;-) mwink.gif
    "May the f/stop be with you!"
  • rwellsrwells Registered Users Posts: 6,084 Major grins
    edited April 21, 2009
    Nik,

    Remember these facts:



    I can't speak about all monolights, but here is some info to keep in mind about AB's. If you want the shortest flash duration times, you'll want the AB400 and have the power turned up to the maximum level.

    Yep, that's right, I said the maximum level... That goes for all the AB's.


    Now you will be thinking...<img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/headscratch.gif&quot; border="0" alt="" > That's just opposite of how speedlights work.
    You would be correct in this thinking.


    This info is copied from AlienBees Product information:


    Here is a data chart showing this,


    [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular][SIZE=-2]Flash Duration
    [/SIZE][/FONT]
    <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=470 border=1><TBODY><TR height=20><TD class=bee width=80 bgColor=#cce1ff height=42 rowSpan=2>
    [SIZE=-2]Flash Unit[/SIZE]
    </TD><TD class=bee bgColor=#cce1ff colSpan=2 height=20>
    [SIZE=-2]t.5 Flash Duration[/SIZE]
    </TD><TD class=bee width=168 bgColor=#cce1ff colSpan=2 height=20>
    [SIZE=-2]t.1 Flash Duration[/SIZE]
    </TD></TR><TR height=20><TD class=bee bgColor=#e5eef5 height=20>
    [SIZE=-3]Full Power[/SIZE]
    </TD><TD class=bee bgColor=#e5eef5 height=20>
    [SIZE=-3]1/32 Power[/SIZE]
    </TD><TD class=bee width=89 bgColor=#e5eef5 height=20>
    [SIZE=-3]Full Power[/SIZE]
    </TD><TD class=bee width=77 bgColor=#e5eef5 height=20>
    [SIZE=-3]1/32 Power[/SIZE]
    </TD></TR><TR><TD class=bee width=80>
    [SIZE=-2]B400 (160Ws)[/SIZE]
    </TD><TD class=bee>
    [SIZE=-2]1/6000 second[/SIZE]
    </TD><TD class=bee>
    [SIZE=-2]1/3000 sec.[/SIZE]
    </TD><TD class=bee width=89>
    [SIZE=-2]1/2000 sec.[/SIZE]
    </TD><TD class=bee width=77>
    [SIZE=-2]1/1000 sec.[/SIZE]
    </TD></TR><TR><TD class=bee width=80>
    [SIZE=-2]B800 (320Ws)[/SIZE]
    </TD><TD class=bee>
    [SIZE=-2]1/3300 second[/SIZE]
    </TD><TD class=bee>
    [SIZE=-2]1/1650 sec.[/SIZE]
    </TD><TD class=bee width=89>
    [SIZE=-2]1/1100 sec.[/SIZE]
    </TD><TD class=bee width=77>
    [SIZE=-2]1/550 sec.[/SIZE]
    </TD></TR><TR><TD class=bee width=80>
    [SIZE=-2]B1600 (640Ws)[/SIZE]
    </TD><TD class=bee>
    [SIZE=-2]1/1800 second[/SIZE]
    </TD><TD class=bee>
    [SIZE=-2]1/900 sec.[/SIZE]
    </TD><TD class=bee width=89>
    [SIZE=-2]1/600 sec.[/SIZE]
    </TD><TD class=bee width=77>
    [SIZE=-2]1/300 sec.[/SIZE]
    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


    and an excerpt from the online owners manual.

    "
    Flash Duration
    The flash duration is a measurement of the time that it takes for the capacitor(s) to release their charge. As discharging the capacitor’s stored energy produces a flash, the amount of time that the flash is present will vary based on the amount of energy to be discharged. A higher power model flash unit, with more capacitors storing more energy, will have a longer flash duration, as there is more energy to discharge. For example, the B400 unit at full power has a shorter flash duration than the B800 unit at full power. However, when you lower the flashpower of that B800, the flash duration does not get shorter. When the flashpower is lowered, the amount of voltage applied to the capacitor(s) is lowered. So, even though the same flashpower output can be achieved by a B400 and a lowered B800, the B400 has only one capacitor to discharge, whereas the B800 has two to discharge, taking slightly more time. When you reduce the flashpower on a unit, the flash duration actually increases. The duration gets longer by roughly 1/4 to 1/2 as you lower the power from full down
    to 1/32 power."


    Hope that helps...
    Randy
  • ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 24,131 moderator
    edited April 21, 2009
    Nikolai wrote:
    ... Well, I was OK even with 1/250, and 1/500 is twice as fast;-) mwink.gif

    That's the problem, the motion stopping capability of focal plane shutters is no better than the x-sync speed. Faster speeds are only effective for the exposure but the shutter still takes the full x-sync speed to traverse the image frame. The result, for fast moving objects, is object distortion.

    Focal plane shutters are not good for stopping motion.

    Here is a more involved discussion:

    http://www.wrotniak.net/photo/tech/fp-shutter.html

    ... and it includes this very famous example of the problem:

    http://www.wrotniak.net/photo/tech/_img/lartigue.jpg

    To reiterate, a camera with an x-sync of 1/250th shot at 1/500th will not stop action better than the 1/250th setting, but it will begin to distort the moving subject.
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 24,131 moderator
    edited April 21, 2009
    rwells wrote:
    Nik,

    Remember these facts:



    I can't speak about all monolights, but here is some info to keep in mind about AB's. If you want the shortest flash duration times, you'll want the AB400 and have the power turned up to the maximum level.

    Yep, that's right, I said the maximum level... That goes for all the AB's.


    Now you will be thinking...<img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/headscratch.gif&quot; border="0" alt="" > That's just opposite of how speedlights work.
    You would be correct in this thinking.


    This info is copied from AlienBees Product information:


    Here is a data chart showing this,


    [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular][SIZE=-2]Flash Duration
    [/SIZE][/FONT]
    <table width="470" border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr height="20"><td class="bee" rowspan="2" width="80" bgcolor="#cce1ff" height="42">
    [SIZE=-2]Flash Unit[/SIZE]
    </td><td class="bee" colspan="2" bgcolor="#cce1ff" height="20">
    [SIZE=-2]t.5 Flash Duration[/SIZE]
    </td><td class="bee" colspan="2" width="168" bgcolor="#cce1ff" height="20">
    [SIZE=-2]t.1 Flash Duration[/SIZE]
    </td></tr><tr height="20"><td class="bee" bgcolor="#e5eef5" height="20">
    [SIZE=-3]Full Power[/SIZE]
    </td><td class="bee" bgcolor="#e5eef5" height="20">
    [SIZE=-3]1/32 Power[/SIZE]
    </td><td class="bee" width="89" bgcolor="#e5eef5" height="20">
    [SIZE=-3]Full Power[/SIZE]
    </td><td class="bee" width="77" bgcolor="#e5eef5" height="20">
    [SIZE=-3]1/32 Power[/SIZE]
    </td></tr><tr><td class="bee" width="80">
    [SIZE=-2]B400 (160Ws)[/SIZE]
    </td><td class="bee">
    [SIZE=-2]1/6000 second[/SIZE]
    </td><td class="bee">
    [SIZE=-2]1/3000 sec.[/SIZE]
    </td><td class="bee" width="89">
    [SIZE=-2]1/2000 sec.[/SIZE]
    </td><td class="bee" width="77">
    [SIZE=-2]1/1000 sec.[/SIZE]
    </td></tr><tr><td class="bee" width="80">
    [SIZE=-2]B800 (320Ws)[/SIZE]
    </td><td class="bee">
    [SIZE=-2]1/3300 second[/SIZE]
    </td><td class="bee">
    [SIZE=-2]1/1650 sec.[/SIZE]
    </td><td class="bee" width="89">
    [SIZE=-2]1/1100 sec.[/SIZE]
    </td><td class="bee" width="77">
    [SIZE=-2]1/550 sec.[/SIZE]
    </td></tr><tr><td class="bee" width="80">
    [SIZE=-2]B1600 (640Ws)[/SIZE]
    </td><td class="bee">
    [SIZE=-2]1/1800 second[/SIZE]
    </td><td class="bee">
    [SIZE=-2]1/900 sec.[/SIZE]
    </td><td class="bee" width="89">
    [SIZE=-2]1/600 sec.[/SIZE]
    </td><td class="bee" width="77">
    [SIZE=-2]1/300 sec.[/SIZE]
    </td></tr></tbody></table>


    and an excerpt from the online owners manual.

    "
    Flash Duration
    The flash duration is a measurement of the time that it takes for the capacitor(s) to release their charge. As discharging the capacitor’s stored energy produces a flash, the amount of time that the flash is present will vary based on the amount of energy to be discharged. A higher power model flash unit, with more capacitors storing more energy, will have a longer flash duration, as there is more energy to discharge. For example, the B400 unit at full power has a shorter flash duration than the B800 unit at full power. However, when you lower the flashpower of that B800, the flash duration does not get shorter. When the flashpower is lowered, the amount of voltage applied to the capacitor(s) is lowered. So, even though the same flashpower output can be achieved by a B400 and a lowered B800, the B400 has only one capacitor to discharge, whereas the B800 has two to discharge, taking slightly more time. When you reduce the flashpower on a unit, the flash duration actually increases. The duration gets longer by roughly 1/4 to 1/2 as you lower the power from full down
    to 1/32 power."


    Hope that helps...

    Excellent information Randy. <img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/thumb.gif&quot; border="0" alt="" >
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • tenoverthenosetenoverthenose Registered Users Posts: 815 Major grins
    edited April 21, 2009
    FWIW, I tested out the new PW's with my AB 800 and AB1600 and was able to get them to sync (with no trace of shutter) all the way up to 1/8000th on my 1dII and 5D. Granted, I'm not receiving the "full power" of the flash, it is burning evenly throught the entire exposure.
    www.patrickpike.com | twitter | facebook
  • rwellsrwells Registered Users Posts: 6,084 Major grins
    edited April 21, 2009
    If your trying to stop motion, the best rule of thumb:

    Use your highest x-sync speed and make sure your lighting source is at least 2 stops above ambient, and use the shortest flash duration available with your light source. This will eliminate ghosting.

    This should work well for your "jumping" models. I'm guessing that you already underexpose the ambient by 2 stops anyway.


    Hope that helps...

    ziggy53 wrote:
    That's the problem, the motion stopping capability of focal plane shutters is no better than the x-sync speed. Faster speeds are only effective for the exposure but the shutter still takes the full x-sync speed to traverse the image frame. The result, for fast moving objects, is object distortion.

    Focal plane shutters are not good for stopping motion.

    Here is a more involved discussion:

    http://www.wrotniak.net/photo/tech/fp-shutter.html

    ... and it includes this very famous example of the problem:

    http://www.wrotniak.net/photo/tech/_img/lartigue.jpg

    To reiterate, a camera with an x-sync of 1/250th shot at 1/500th will not stop action better than the 1/250th setting, but it will begin to distort the moving subject.
    Randy
  • pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,708 moderator
    edited April 21, 2009
    I can appreciate Nik's desire for higher shutter synch speeds in sunlight to help cut the ambient light back.

    An extra stop or two less ambient light, is like gold, out of doors.

    I am really intrigued by the poster who got ABs to synch for a full frame at shutter speeds of 1/8000th - that implies a fairly long flash duration like Ziggy was talking about. Cool!
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
  • rwellsrwells Registered Users Posts: 6,084 Major grins
    edited April 21, 2009
    pathfinder wrote:
    ...I am really intrigued by the poster who got ABs to synch for a full frame at shutter speeds of 1/8000th - that implies a fairly long flash duration like Ziggy was talking about. Cool!

    That makes two of us Jim!

    I looked at Patrick's website, and he definitely knows his way around a camera and some lights.

    Come on Patrick, give us all the juicy details deal.gif
    Randy
  • NikolaiNikolai Registered Users Posts: 19,035 Major grins
    edited April 21, 2009
    tenoverthenose wrote:
    FWIW, I tested out the new PW's with my AB 800 and AB1600 and was able to get them to sync (with no trace of shutter) all the way up to 1/8000th on my 1dII and 5D. Granted, I'm not receiving the "full power" of the flash, it is burning evenly throught the entire exposure.
    Awesum! clap.gif
    What was yout PW offset setting? I wonder if it's consistent across "camera model - pw transmitter - pw receiver - flash model", or if it deviates for each copy of the hardware... headscratch.gif
    "May the f/stop be with you!"
  • tenoverthenosetenoverthenose Registered Users Posts: 815 Major grins
    edited April 23, 2009
    Nikolai wrote:
    Awesum! clap.gif
    What was yout PW offset setting? I wonder if it's consistent across "camera model - pw transmitter - pw receiver - flash model", or if it deviates for each copy of the hardware... headscratch.gif

    I'm trying my best to work out all the little details and iron out the wrinkles. To be honest, I did it late one night when I first got them and it worked like a charm, no problems at all (with the original firmware). Tried it again last week and now I need to dial in the sync offset, but that's just spending some more time with it (I hope to get it done today). My first frame after connecting everything is perfect, but subsequent frames miss the flash entirely. I'll keep you all posted with my specific settings as soon as they are perfected.
    www.patrickpike.com | twitter | facebook
  • NikolaiNikolai Registered Users Posts: 19,035 Major grins
    edited April 23, 2009
    tenoverthenose wrote:
    ...My first frame after connecting everything is perfect, but subsequent frames miss the flash entirely. I'll keep you all posted with my specific settings as soon as they are perfected.
    Hmm... The spec says that first frame is ALWAYS *toss* (one thing I really don't like about it).
    Which was always true in my case...
    Interesting....
    "May the f/stop be with you!"
  • tenoverthenosetenoverthenose Registered Users Posts: 815 Major grins
    edited April 23, 2009
    Discovered the problem I had. To get this to work properly with the AB, you need to use a Flex transceiver on the AB. With the mini on top my camera, and the flex on the AB I just walked every shutter speed in perfect sync with both my AB 800 and AB 1600 all using the default sync offset. Perhaps a different offset may get you a "hotter" burn of the strobe, but that would take some serious experimentation.

    In other words, its plug and play so long as you don't play with a PW+II.
    www.patrickpike.com | twitter | facebook
  • NikolaiNikolai Registered Users Posts: 19,035 Major grins
    edited April 23, 2009
    tenoverthenose wrote:
    Discovered the problem I had. To get this to work properly with the AB, you need to use a Flex transceiver on the AB. With the mini on top my camera, and the flex on the AB I just walked every shutter speed in perfect sync with both my AB 800 and AB 1600 all using the default sync offset. Perhaps a different offset may get you a "hotter" burn of the strobe, but that would take some serious experimentation.

    In other words, its plug and play so long as you don't play with a PW+II.

    "ouch that hurts" :cry
    Thank you for the info thumb.gif
    I guess I'll stay within sync speed...rolleyes1.gif
    I have no intentions to replace 4 PWII+ units with flexes.. deal.gif
    "May the f/stop be with you!"
  • tenoverthenosetenoverthenose Registered Users Posts: 815 Major grins
    edited April 23, 2009
    Nikolai, I made sure that HSS was disabled on the transmitter and just made use of the offset. I was able to get a clean sync at 1/1000th with my AB using the mini on my 5D and a PWII on the AB. That's a lot of extra light!
    www.patrickpike.com | twitter | facebook
  • ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 24,131 moderator
    edited April 23, 2009
    tenoverthenose wrote:
    Nikolai, I made sure that HSS was disabled on the transmitter and just made use of the offset. I was able to get a clean sync at 1/1000th with my AB using the mini on my 5D and a PWII on the AB. That's a lot of extra light!

    1/1000th on a shutter designed to sync at 1/200th is pretty impressive. thumb.gif
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • NikolaiNikolai Registered Users Posts: 19,035 Major grins
    edited April 24, 2009
    OK, got few more experiments...
    camera: Canon 5D Mark II + MiniTT1
    strobe1: PW Receiver (yeah, the old one) + AB400
    strobe2: ProFoto Compact-R 300
    strobe3: PW receiver + Sunpack Auto555EX

    Looks like PW and PW module in ProFoto are very diffferent. Same setting in mini created drastic difference, e.g. in AB the sahdow was on top, in PF the shadow was on bottom.
    With PW + AB I could not get anywhere above 1/250 without getting the shadow. With offset being far left and shuuter speed being short I even got the shadow on both sides of the frame.

    PF still seems to work OK with shorter shutter speeds, at least up to 1/500. However it requires very bold offsets.

    At this point I decided to use intermideate offset setting (-400) which seems to be "in sync" with both flashes and all receivers (Sunpack works fine with it, too)

    I have no clue how to make ABs work with the shorter shutter speed, at least without Flex.

    And no, hp sync was not disabled (otherwise it wouldn't even let me to set anything shorter than 1/200).

    Mystery is the name of the game headscratch.gif

    Since at this point I don't have a project that
    "May the f/stop be with you!"
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