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430ex question
Woohoo! Thanks to $200 refurbs at Adorama, I finally have two flashes!! :barb With my ste2, I figure I'm set for a while now (well, theoretically. I'm sure I can find some urgent NEED for something else to complete the setup 
:rofl)
Two questions:
1. Does the FEC ON the 430 work indepently from the FEC in the camra (xsi)? In other words, if I use *both* forms of FEC (on flash and on camera) can I turn it down even further, or do the cancel each other out and only turn it down just so far, regardless of which I use?
2. Similarly, when I'm using the ste2 with my 430 on one side and 420 on the other, can I reduce output of the 430 side by adding onflash FEC to JUST that unit (rather than FEC via the camera, which as far as I can tell affects both units)
Bottom line is that in a small space (the room I use to shoot is my teeny-tiny music room), I'd love to reduce the side that's acting as fill even further to get slightly less flat lighting.
Thanks in advance (and yes, I've read the Canon Flash Megadocument - love it - but have either missed this or didn't understand it....)
:rofl)Two questions:
1. Does the FEC ON the 430 work indepently from the FEC in the camra (xsi)? In other words, if I use *both* forms of FEC (on flash and on camera) can I turn it down even further, or do the cancel each other out and only turn it down just so far, regardless of which I use?
2. Similarly, when I'm using the ste2 with my 430 on one side and 420 on the other, can I reduce output of the 430 side by adding onflash FEC to JUST that unit (rather than FEC via the camera, which as far as I can tell affects both units)
Bottom line is that in a small space (the room I use to shoot is my teeny-tiny music room), I'd love to reduce the side that's acting as fill even further to get slightly less flat lighting.
Thanks in advance (and yes, I've read the Canon Flash Megadocument - love it - but have either missed this or didn't understand it....)
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The answer (for anybody else who reads this, missed it in the manual, and wonders): the camera's FEC overrides the cameras. Next question, I suppose, is if the fec on the flash reduces it more than the fec in camera....
::scuttles back to documents and manual to keep reading::
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No, no, I'm aware of that - reading over my post I can see I wasn't clear. What I meant was can I FURTHER reduce the fill side by using FEC.
I've been experimenting with it for the last coupla hours - it will take me a little while to figure it out, but I think I'm going to love having two units!
So I have a whole new learning curve ahead of me. I hope you are able to figure out the FEC on your 430's.
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I believe the 430EXII or 580EX/II may have other settings, that the 430 does not have. By the way, the only way to adjust FEC on a 420EX is via the camera. I believe that FEC settings apply to all flashes, I do not know of a way to apply different FECs to different groups on the STE2.
To answer your question: NO
FEC applies to all flashes, no matter how many or in what group.
You CAN reduce the fill side by simply adjusting the ratio away from that group. That's basically what ratios are used for.
Hope that helps...
Yeah, I think I'll have to resort to less electronic ways of making the ratio a little more extreme, and just cut the light output on the fill side by putting something over the flash head. No biggie.
Of course, when I'm in a bigger space it's easy enough simply to move a flash further away to cut it down - maybe I should just start looking for a larger house instead of more sophisticated gear?!
Thanks Randy! Yeah, I kinda figured that out. I guess the next question is... will the STe2 still fire the 430 when it's in M mode, or only when it's in ETTL? Again, the manual isn't wonderfully clear on this point, and I need to go read it again (not with me now to see if I can figure it out)
Thanks for the answers!
I'm still boycotting the ST-E2 due to no control over group C
Matter of fact, I went down to buy a ST-E2 this week and couldn't pull the trigger on it for that reason. I purchased another Canon speedlight instead. My fourth.
So, I'll leave that question up to an ST-E2 owner.
Yes you can set the flash in M mode, and you can also dial in FEC on the flash. (not on the 420EX)
So if you want a diff FEC for each flash, set them as you wish, and fire away.
When outdoors I will shoot manual or perhaps Av, set the flash on -1 2/3, and use the ST E2 as a remote trigger. Perhaps ETTL is doing something, but I get what I am looking for.
I'm sorry, but that's incorrect.
If your flash is in ETTL, you can then utilize FEC (flash exposure compensation) - but not on seperate individual flashes. FEC in ETTL is global. It affects all the flashes.
If your flash is in manual mode, you can increase or decrease the output setting, but that has nothing to do with FEC.
Same principle as a camera body. You can use EC (exposure compensation) if your in a mode other than manual.
If your camera is in manual mode, there is no EC available for use.
Perhaps I am using the wrong terms.
On the 430EX, you simply need to hold the middle set button down, and then push one of the outer ring buttons to raise or lower EV. Assumed this is similar to FEC, which from my experience achieves a similar result.
If the flash is in M mode, pushing these 'ring' buttons will adjust output not in EV, but in actual flash output power, all they way down to 1/64.
Whether a -3 EV is the same as 1/64 I have no idea, but I find adjusting EV much more effective, likely because think it it is using ETTL, and therefore is adjusting for the scene exposure, vs just reducing flash output.
I have no agenda other than to supply information.
Honestly, Canon's flash system is fairly complicated. You have many configurations available & things act differently depending on those. On camera, off camera, manual settings, ETTL, controlled via in-camera -vs- actual manipulation on the flash itself, etc...
We're all in the "learning bucket"
If you haven't read Chuck Gardner's info on Canon ETTL flash's, do yourself a favor a give it a read.
Cool link, Randy, I had not seen that one! Quite worthwhile!
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Jim,
I can honestly say that after reading, studying, and practicing Chuck's methods, it literally changed the way I use flash, for the better.
I highly recommend it.
Will read that link, and thanks cmason for clarifying that the STe2 + 430 in manual will work. That's just what I need! The 420 is great as an ETTL flash, but there are times now when I really want more control (spoiled by using studio strobes at the college all semester), hence the investment in the 430 (yeah, I know - a 580ex would have been better, but this is fine for now. The rolling upgrade.... I'll get there eventually!). I'm very happy to have two flashes at last and I'm sure once I learn how to manipulate their features and use this setup I'll be very happy (I'm already very happy with it and have barely done more than run them in auto-everything). And the Adorama refurb price was great ($199 w/free shipping and honestly - it looked brand new out of the box including its case and stand)
Thanks again!
Back to what you said....
Did it mean that if I have an STE2 shoe mounted.....0 FEC in-camera and set up two 580EX flash units......if I adjust the FEC on one flash to -1.....and the other to -3.......well....what happens? No ratio....same channel...
Are you saying that they won't each fire with their independent adjustments?
Jeff
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Jeff,
I stated that I don't own a ST-E2, so I can't answer your question for sure, I can only guess. The ST-E2 and a 580xx do some things differently that I know about, but since I don't own a ST-E2, I don't know the full extent of their differences.
EX: The ST-E2 uses IR for signaling to the slave units --- 580xx uses light pulses from the flash tube to send the signaling to the slave units.
The ST-E2 can only control (2) groups (my main beef with the unit) while the 580xx can control (3) groups.
You didn't mention it in your example, but I'm going under the assumption that your talking ETTL here, as there is no FEC in manual mode on the flash. You can change power settings in manual mode, but that's different than FEC.
My guess here would be that since you state that your NOT using FEC from the camera body, and you are manually dialing this in on the flash itself, due to what Canon states and my experience using a 580EX(II) as master, that if FEC is dialed in directly on the flash unit, it takes precedence. I would guess that yes, the flash units would output differently. This of course would be very easy to test and verify if one owned the setup you gave in your example.
I do own (3) 580xx flash's and (1) 430EXII, so I can comment on them:
If you are using a 580xx as master & 580xx as slaves in ETTL with in-camera FEC set at 0 and also FEC on the 580xx master set to 0, one slave set to -1 FEC physically on the flash, and the other set to +3 FEC physically on the flash, then yes, the flash output will be different from each flash.
Moreover, if you want, you can then change the global FEC using the 580xx master to add or subtract FEC, and it will affect both slaves equally. (globally)
I haven't given this any thought before right now, but at the moment, I can't think of why one would want to do what you are proposing anyway. That's what you use ratios for. So that you can change the light output "ratio" between the flash's without having to physically go to the flash to adjust it. If you want a consistent "ratio", then you would use the slaves in manual mode and adjust the power settings to obtain the "ratios" that you want. You can do this with a 580xx as master & I assume that you can also do this with a ST-E2.
Are you wanting to talk about every possible way to configure your flash's, remote controllers, et al, or what would be common practice for a photographer? Either way, I'd highly recommend that you read through all of Chuck Gardner's info concerning the Canon ETTL system.
My statements were directed toward FEC via in-camera settings or on the master, which is a global setting (group C has a special form of FEC, but that's a whole different discussion and was not brought up in this thread - the ST-E2 can't address group C anyway) & that there is no FEC in manual mode on the flash itself.
Hope that helps...
And tx cmason for confirming that M+ste2 is possible - I see now why I didn't quite understand at first (it's that press-and-hold sequence that isn't entirely obvious until you find the footnote. Note to Canon: please make your manuals clearer and more expansive!)
First set of photos is just the 430ex on its own, triggered by the ste2. On-camera FEC was set to 0. The shots with manual flash (M) were set using the fraction EV adjustments; the on-flash ETTL shots were adjusted by using the +/- stop FEC adjustments.
To my eye, ETTL is adjusting output even before you fine-tune it with FEC (M 1/1 and FEC 0 are not the same, with FEC 0 being better exposed); it seems that the ETTL/FEC combo is always keeping the shot closer to the basic exposure, so the adjustments aren't as wide (I'm sure that if i had done 2/1 EV it would have been very overexposed). It also seems to me that ETTL is doing everything to avoid OVERexposing the shot, but does let you underexpose (see the -3FEC)
In any case, here ya go.
All images SOOC - completely unedited except to make the collages
Moving right along to using the STe2 and TWO flashes. 420ex camera left (thus constant, since camera FEC was set to 0); 430ex to camera right and adjusted as per captions (sorry about the extra picture in the last collage - the function wouldn't let me have an unequal number in a row and just wrapped around to the first in the series again to even it out!).
On-camera FEC at 0 throughout. Shot in aperture priority. Ste2 adjusted at each setting in sequence from left to right, thus 8:1, 1:1, 1:8
STE2, 420ex and 430ex in MANUAL mode (adjustments EV onflash)
STE2 420ex and 430ex in ETTL mode (adjustments FEC onflash)
So... what conclusions?
Seriously though, I admire your motivation for learning Diva. I've been following this thread since I just purchased the 580EX II (only one), but might eventually get slaves. You go girl.
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I prefer the ETTL shots, see much more balanced, and at least on these I can clearly see the ratios.
I have found that no matter what, ETTL works best for me, and like Randy, I prefer to adjust things with ratios, though, I have found much success adjusting EV on the flash itself in these situations. I suspect the reason I like this is because ETTL can be so baffling, and that I compensate by simply reducing flash in order to bring up ambient light. Btw, I am referring to daylight and outdoor shots here. For indoor portraits, with my umbrellas, I tend to let the ETTL figure it out, and adjust ratios and shutter speed to accomidate.
NOTE: I think this may sound a little snotty. Please don't take it that way, I'm only trying to help you in your quest to understand the Canon flash system.
My conclusion would be to read all about how Canon's flash systems work via Chuck Gardner's site that I linked earlier.
You can re-invent the wheel if you wish, but he explains it all extremely well. Better than anyone else that I've seen.
Read that, then practice. You have several things in your test that are mixed in a way that it would be very hard to pull repeatable value out of.
EX: Canon has decided as a manufacturer, that while the camera is in AV mode, the flash is only there to provide "FILL FLASH", not be the "main light". (unless your particular body has the Cf.n to force the flash to use the cameras x-sync speed)
What you are doing with your test, is essentially chasing the camera's decisions around the bush.
Will that particular way work? Maybe.
Will that particular way work in a different environment? Unlikely.
Side note: ETTL & manual flash settings are two completely different things. ETTL uses the camera and flash info to regulate the output from the flash. Manual, hard sets the flash output. It doesn't give a darn what your exposure looks like. You've told it to output "x" amount, and that you'll worry about all the other details.
They cannot, and do not exist at the same time in Canon's flash system. So, using those terms intermingled will only lead to further confusion.
YMMV
Which I greatly appreciate.
Er.... I did read the link. Several times in fact! While the information is valuable, I also feel he has a real "580ex only" agenda - whatever else he says, he makes that point LOUD and clear. And repeatedly.
Which, in fact, I do. My camera is is set to high-speed synch and 2nd-curtain synch in the cfns and I leave it that way unless I specifically need to set it to something else.
Not entirely. I certainly never claimed it was scientifically sound (no way!), but I did find it interesting to methodically put it through its paces in a fixed, relatively controlled environment as part of my "getting to know you" process with the new gear. It may not be particularly helpful to anybody else, but it has already been useful to me, at least in familiarising myself with some of the basics. And I think it does pretty conclusively show that ETTL is a more-than-competent system! It won't get it right all the time every time, but it certainly gets well in the ballpark. I'm very happy to have manual override now - for sure - but as long as ETTL continues to do the job I need it to do... I'm quite happy to use it.
Absolutely.
Er... I don't think I did ever intermingle the terms; in fact, I went to some lengths to distinguish between them, even going as far as to separate the shots into groups indicating which approach I used for the batch.
Disclaimer from me this time: not intending to sound snotty either, but based on your comments I did want to respond not to "defend" - defending the status quo is the enemy of learning!! - but at least put it into the context of where *I* am at this stage of development, and why I did it the way I did.
The thing is - and I think as we grow into better gear and broader understanding - I'm learning you can actually do a lot "the wrong way"... or at least the UNORTHODOX way. I shouldn't have been able to get anything like the results I've coaxed out of my 420ex with its (frequently derided) lack of manual control, especially using my homemade modifiers which aren't really big enough to do the job I really want.
But, somehow, I made it work, if only out of dogged determination. It's only in the light (whoops, pun not intended) of working with real studio strobes with proper modifiers, and a lightmeter and full-sized reflectors and all the rest and thus learning how it's "supposed" to be done (and how darned much EASIER it can be with the proper tools and knowledge!) that I now realise what a total technical hash I made of things, and yet... the pictures still came out pretty darn good (some of them, anyway. I make no claims for a high keeper-to-toss ratio yet!!!!
And so, I continue to try to learn. How to use the tools I have as they were intended, how to push them beyond the limits of what was intended, and how sometimes alternative tools do a better job. It's the fun of this process as far as I'm concerned; I'd have been bored out of my mind if it were all "out of the box" easy.
In any case, my sincerest thanks, I will be re-reading the assorted articles yet again, and this discussion has FOR SURE clarified a bunch of points about the flashes' capabilities (and in some cases, settings) and I really appreciate it.
Now, who's buying the next round of beers?
A lot of folks who try to just figure it out without understanding the underlying philosophy ( even if the read the manual which does not explain the underlying philosophy ), spend a lot of time trying to just figure out what is going on. It really is NOT INUTITIVE!
The most complete instruction set is here - thorough, understandable and complete, but rather long.
A shorter version of the underlying design is here
The short version is that using ETTL flash in Av or Tv mode uses the flash as a fill flash and sets the camera exposure for ambient light - this means it can AND will set a 15 second shutter speed if needed by ambient, and expects you to know that, and have your camera on an appropriate tripod. This is also true using an ST-E2.
If you want to use the flash as the main light, then set your Camera in Manual Mode and your flash in ETTL, and shoot away. The flash will expose the subject in the fore ground correctly, and the background will be exposed however you set the aperture and shutter speed to capture them. You can alter the exposure of the background by changing the shutter speed you use. High speed synch is a great help for this out of doors.
P assumes you are going to be handholding the flash, and will not allow a long shutter speed, typically a minimum of 1/60th or so, and will usually use the largest aperture your camera/lens will allow.
Learn to bounce your flash ETTL with the camera in Manual mode, and you have great creative control.
Like Randy said, I do not believe you can have separate FECs when using two flashes with the ST-E2. You have the ability to change the ratio between the two lights directly on the ST-E2. Indeed, with two strobes in opposite corners of the room, you can change one from key to fill by using just the ST-E2 alone.
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Word of caution, It's addictive stuff and a very slippery road down hill. I thought 2 was enough, then I bought a third, now I have 6 pocket wizards waiting to be hooked up to another 2 flashes to make a total of five:photo:photo:photo:photo:photo
I'm thinking about putting one of my kidneys and half a liver up for auction on eBay to finance the next set of lights
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Yes, this has been my experience, I just thought that you originally stated that it would behave differently, but no....we are on the same page! I have had the Gardner site as a favorite for at least two years. It, in my opinion, is the single best recource for the EOS flash system on the net.
Jeff
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Now catching up on the remainder of this helpful reading assignment
So, when you write us a flash tutorial....remember to put the links at the top!:D
Jeff
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-My Website - Blog - Tips for Senior Portraiture
No kidding. It would help if it were a different colour from the main text as well... totally missable if you haven't come from the main front page and seen how he has it all laid out (well, that's my story and I'm sticking to it!!!!