Anyone using a Canon20D and Vivitar 285HV Flash??

WolfOnDigital

I have a Canon 20D and an old Vivitar 285 HV Flash
There is a question on if the synch voltage is way too high to use on a Canon 20D?

I have read from some it works fine and will NOT damage my Canon 20D and others claim it will damage the camera.


Anyone using this new and old combo? Does it work well?
Until I buy a flash from canon I can use this great Flash if it works without voltage damage.

Help...

Thanks,


Jeff

ziggy53

I have around 5 of the Vivitar 285 flashes and all are the HV version except one. I believe that the HV versions have a trigger voltage of around 12v where the non-HV version was several hundred volts.

There is a school of thought that believes that the Canon (entry level and prosumer) camera recommended trigger voltage is 6v, which means that even the HV version may be pushing it. (Most newer genuine Canon speedlights have a trigger voltage of around 4-6v feeding into the legend.)

Bob Atkins claims that the 20D trigger voltage limit is 250v, the same as the 1D/iDs cameras.

http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/digital/eos20d.html
(About 20 percent down the page in the Shutter section.)

I believe that I read a Canon document that claimed the trigger voltage for the 20D was 6v for the flash shoe and 250v for the PC port. (I cannot find the document however.)

To be safe, I use a Wein SafeSync on my cameras when using the older flashes, just to be sure. The Wein unit provides opto-isolation of the flash from the camera and uses a 6v trigger internally. It is very safe indeed and I have used it with old flashes up to nearly 500v without problems. Highly recommended. thumb

http://www.adorama.com/WNSSHSHS.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/245292-REG/Wein_W990560_Safe_Sync_Hot_Shoe_to.html

pathfinder

Ziggy, have you ever used the small peanut optical slave that will plug right into a 285HV? You could then trigger the 285HV with the pop up flash of the 20D.

Peanut slaves are cheap and having a few around is handy. They need the appropriate plug end to fit into a Vivitar style plug, but I got mine from B&H if memory serves me

ziggy53

pathfinder wrote:

Ziggy, have you ever used the small peanut optical slave that will plug right into a 285HV? You could then trigger the 285HV with the pop up flash of the 20D.

Peanut slaves are cheap and having a few around is handy. They need the appropriate plug end to fit into a Vivitar style plug, but I got mine from B&H if memory serves me

Yes, I have a bunch of the Wein Peanut optical slaves and I use them with both the Vivitar 285/285HV and 283 flash units. I was not able to sync with the on-camera flash except at extremely slow shutter speeds due to a pre-flash from the camera. A manual or "auto" external flash allows perfect operation of the slaved units at full x-sync speeds.

Wein also makes a "digital" version but I found several people who claimed they did not work correctly.

The Sunpak "Digital Camera Flash Adapter", both a bracket and a built-in optical slave, does work perfectly with every camera I have tried, including those with pre-flash. It does take different settings (probably delay settings) for different situations. It only accepts hot-shoe flashes however.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/396592-REG/Sunpak_DIGIADAPT_Digital_Camera_Flash_Adapter.html

ziggy53

ziggy53 wrote:

...

I believe that I read a Canon document that claimed the trigger voltage for the 20D was 6v for the flash shoe and 250v for the PC port. (I cannot find the document however.)

...

http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/index2.html

... under "Trigger Circuit Voltage":

"Modern cameras, however, rely on electronic circuitry rather than electric switches. This allows for more flexibility and the possibility for computerization, but the circuits often can’t withstand high circuit voltages (anything above 6 volts, in the case of most EOS cameras, according to Canon) and can be damaged when connected to a high voltage device.

Note that this 6 volt limit sometimes applies to PC sockets and sometimes doesn’t, depending on the specific product. Canon state that the 1D, 20D, 20Da and 5D digital cameras are capable of withstanding trigger voltages of up to 250 volts when firing flash units with their PC sockets. The 6 volt limit applies to the camera hotshoe only. Unfortunately Canon don’t always state what trigger voltage the PC sockets on all of its PC-socket-equipped cameras can withstand, so if this information is not supplied in the manual you should probably contact Canon or avoid the risk altogether and use a voltage-limiting adapter."

WolfOnDigital

Thanks
My understanding is that Canon 20D IS rated for 250 Volts.


I discount anything Canon says as they are not forthright on people using NON Canon Products..lol


According to Chuck Westfall, the guru...he says the Canon 20D Is rated for 250 volts. That was the last feedback I received.

Anyone else?

ziggy53

WolfOnDigital wrote:

...
According to Chuck Westfall, the guru...he says the Canon 20D Is rated for 250 volts. That was the last feedback I received.

Anyone else?

Mr. Westfall is the customer relations person for Canon USA and one of the most technically knowledgeable people on the planet with regard to Canon photographic products. If you have correspondence from him you should be able to trust it.

This is his public statement with regard to trigger voltage and he does mention the 20D specifically (but he does not mention both PC port and hot shoe):

http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue0505/westfall.html

WolfOnDigital

Westfall
I would be using the 285HV on the Canon 20D hotshoe only...no pc cord synch...wouldn't need it.

If this is the case then Westfall clearly says the 285HV works fine with the Canon 20D

WolfOnDigital

From Westfall
check this out:


And another reference on the subject from http://photography-on-the.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-59663.html:
"Doug Kerr over at the Rob Galbraith forum published an email he received from Chuck Westfall that confirms information on the Euro-Canon website: "The voltage tolerance on all Canon EOS cameras is the same for both the hotshoe and the PC terminal (if there is a PC terminal). The 10D and the 300D have 6-volt flash syncs, the 20D and the 1D series have 250v flash syncs.""

Westfall confirms BOTH the hotshoe and the pc terminal

WolfOnDigital

Ziggy
By the way, I'm not arguing with you! lol

Just trying to clear this up. Have zero flash and found my 285HV sitting around and if I can utilize it then I have expanded my photo capabilities.

Thanks very much for your weighing in on this.

Jeff

ziggy53

WolfOnDigital wrote:

check this out:


And another reference on the subject from http://photography-on-the.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-59663.html:
"Doug Kerr over at the Rob Galbraith forum published an email he received from Chuck Westfall that confirms information on the Euro-Canon website: "The voltage tolerance on all Canon EOS cameras is the same for both the hotshoe and the PC terminal (if there is a PC terminal). The 10D and the 300D have 6-volt flash syncs, the 20D and the 1D series have 250v flash syncs.""

Westfall confirms BOTH the hotshoe and the pc terminal

I never was able to find the quote on the RG forum but at DPReview I found:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1031&message=13042207

This appears to be a legitimate claim. I still recommend use of a SafeSync and that is what I use.

Understand too that some of the Vivitar units appear to "leak" a much higher voltage across the terminals at the point of trigger:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=81705

ziggy53

WolfOnDigital wrote:

By the way, I'm not arguing with you! lol

Just trying to clear this up. Have zero flash and found my 285HV sitting around and if I can utilize it then I have expanded my photo capabilities.

Thanks very much for your weighing in on this.

Jeff

Jeff,

I absolutely understand. The situation is confusing, to say the least, and the information on the Internet seems to be contradictory.

The SafeSync units are not cheap and I know you want to know if they are justified and necessary. The honst truth is I am not certain that they are necessary. I use them myself and I do believe that they work properly to protect the camera from potential damage. Since my recommendations will always err on the side that is more proactive and protective, I recommend that the SafeSync is best to use a Vivitar 285HV on the modern digital cameras from any manufacturer.

The isolation that Pathfinder was suggesting in using a slave unit is another worthy consideration.

WolfOnDigital

Updated Info - Important
Hi Ziggy,

Just received this via e-mail from a top engineer who knows and talks with Chuck Westfall directly:

From Me,

We talked a long time back (Few years?) and also on the phone.

I just bought a Canon 20D at that time and owned an old Vivitar 285 HV Flash unit made in Japan version.

You assured me that the flash would work on the Canon 20D hotshoe (No pc cord) and there would notbe an issue with voltage problems. I believe you said that Canon 20D was able to handle up to 250 volts on the hotshoe?

Is this correct? I can't find the print out of our old email exchange.

The Answer,

I've looked in the archives here and find a message to you but without any technical content.

As I understand it, all Vivitar 285HV units have a relatively low trigger circuit voltage. (I have three of them, and that is true, although I don't remember now the actual voltage as I measured it.

The Canon EOS 20D is said to be able to operate with flash units whose trigger circuit voltage is at least 200 volts, perhaps 250 volts (again, I don't remember all the details).

I also understand that the flash trigger circuit in the camera is protected from possible encounters with flash unit trigger circuits with even higher voltages - probably with some type of "crowbar" circuit that would, in effect, short out the trigger semiconductor when such an excessive voltage is encountered.

In any event, I use a Vivitar 285HV all the time in the shoe of my EOS 20D.

Also, how do I measure my flash units voltage? I have a voltmeter and never measured it before.

Well, the tricky part is getting access to the trigger terminals. Of course, one of them is the spring-loaded plunger in the middle of the foot. The other is a little metal plate, with a curved "bump", on the bottom of the groove of the foot.

It's hard to put the meter lead clip on the bump, and to get access to the little plate you would need to have some type of metal plate to slide into the groove in the shoe.

Actually, the best way to get access for testing is to take a compatible PC cord and cut off the camera-end PC connector, strip the cable, and then have two conductors (one will likely be the outside "shield" braid) exposed to which you can readily connect the clips from the meter leads.

Another approach is to take the foot off the flash (it is held by two small Phillips-head screws) and then make connections to the terminals on its inside. There will only be two wires coming from the flash unit proper, and you could connect to them at the terminals they go to.

The meter must have a high impedance - otherwise, the current drawn by the meter will decrease the voltage on the trigger terminal. An "electronic" meter is ideal, but a regular analog meter is OK if has a rated impedance of at least 20,000 ohms/volt. (This is usually marked on the meter face; most modern meters, even basic ones, will be OK).

The positive (red) lead of the meter should go to the center contact or center conductor.

The flash unit should of course be energized and fully changed before you make the measurement.

What will you do with the answer? I dunno.

Let me know if I can be of any further help.

ziggy53

Looks pretty definitive that you may "safely" use the Vivitar 285HV flash on the Canon 20D camera. I do wish Canon would publish a statement that we could refer to which would define these properties in an "official" way but, for now, this is about as good as information gets.

Thanks for investigating and sharing.

WolfOnDigital

In Addition....
Also was conveyed to me that if you go to page 98 in the Canon User Guide, especially the box with the ! in it...no where does Canon say that DAMAGE will occur if you use a non canon flash on the hotshoe..Canon just says..."It may not work" That would indicate to me that it would be safe..Canon would definitley warn in bold if there were any issues.

ziggy53

WolfOnDigital wrote:

Also was conveyed to me that if you go to page 98 in the Canon User Guide, especially the box with the ! in it...no where does Canon say that DAMAGE will occur if you use a non canon flash on the hotshoe..Canon just says..."It may not work" That would indicate to me that it would be safe..Canon would definitley warn in bold if there were any issues.

Unfortunately, I have found reliable accounts where very expensive equipment have been damaged by the use of older high trigger flash voltage so I still don't recommend that you assume that "any" old flash will be safe.

BTW, I found a better published answer from Chuck Westfall here:

http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0703/tech-tips.html

WolfOnDigital

Yep...
Saw that once before but couldn't find it to post here. Thanks for grabbing it and posting it.


So bottom line is for the Canon 20D I can use a 285HV Vivitar Flash connected to the hot shoe safely? (TCV up to 250)


Jeff

pathfinder

I am with Ziggy.

I place nothing but a Canon (or Sigma flash for Canon ) in the hot shoe on my camera. I am paranoid, but even paranoids may have enemies too:D

I use either optical slaves, or Pocket Wizard type radio connectors.

I have 3 285HVs and a Vivitar 283 that I connect remotely via optical slaves or radio links.

WolfOnDigital

Vivitar

ziggy53 wrote:

Unfortunately, I have found reliable accounts where very expensive equipment have been damaged by the use of older high trigger flash voltage so I still don't recommend that you assume that "any" old flash will be safe.


I agree with you about "Any old" flash But specifically the Vivitar 285HV seems to be from all accounts we have researched to be safe.


Jeff

ziggy53

WolfOnDigital wrote:

... specifically the Vivitar 285HV seems to be from all accounts we have researched to be safe.


Jeff

That is how I interpret the reply you got from the Canon engineer. Specifically I find great assurance from the engineer's statement:

"In any event, I use a Vivitar 285HV all the time in the shoe of my EOS 20D."

For me, since I already have the Wein SafeSync and I am in the habit of using it with older flashes, I will continue with my habitual use of the Vivitar flashes with the SafeSync.

Besides the Sigma 500 DG Super flashes, I do use the Sunpak 383 Super flashes without protection. This is because I have tested each of my flashes myself and they test at just under 7v, which I consider OK. Also, I have never been "bit" by the voltage from a Sunpak 383 Super or the Sigma flashes, but I have felt the higher voltage from the Vivitar 285, but I cannot honestly say if it was from an "HV" version or the non-HV version of the flash.

Just remember to blame Canon instead of DGrin if the worst should happen using the 285HV on the 20D.

WolfOnDigital

Final Test
I guess the final test would be to check the voltage on my 285HV


Jeff

ziggy53

WolfOnDigital wrote:

I guess the final test would be to check the voltage on my 285HV


Jeff

That's a very good idea. My best measurements were using a DVM as an analog meter was not relaible.