Challenges - Part 2

TonyCooper

In my first post about the difficulty in shooting a track meet, I mention not being able to compose the image and taking what you get. The first image captures the baton pass, but the middle figure is a meaningless part of the image. There's always a third figure (or more) in a tight race, though.

The second image would be better if the knocked-off bar was in the image, but I kinda like the suspended in space aspect.

In the third image, I just like her socks. She's stylin'.

johng

Hi Tony. Yep, every sport has it's challenges.

The biggest thing I see in all 3 images is they all look way over processed - oversharpened, oversaturated and loss of detail. Not sure how much you cropped the photos as that can contribute greatly to the issues I'm seeing. Beyond that, you may want to consider your camera settings and/or post processing.

The next issue you'll have to address if you want to get better results is dealing with backgrounds. The backgrounds in the first two shots are very distracting. That's going to be tough to accomplish with the short lens you're currently using. It's just not designed for sports work - the backgrounds and deep dof are one of the fall-outs (as iis the need to heavily crop). It's an unfortunate fact about sports shooting - it often requires some expensive gear. No one is saying you need to run out and buy the 400mm 2.8 but you should strongly consider maybe a Sigma 70-200 2.8 or 100-300 f4. Even if you have to go budget basement and get the Nikon 70-300 - you'll see an improvement in quality by having a telephoto lens.

So shot 1 - biggest problems are distracting background, and the general IQ issues I mentioned above.

Shot 2 - very akward position. The biggest issue is that faces are important - you want to capture them in 90% of your shots. But you also want to capture the peak action - for pole vault it's as he's going over the bar. As it is, the vaulter's butt is pretty much the focal point and that's not very flattering.

Best of luck in your next outing.

SoonerShawn

I'll agree with you...there are challenges when shooting track meets, but not really much different than the challenges you are faced with when shooting football, or just about any other sport for that matter. One thing to think about when shooting a track meet is to pick your spots wisely, and with much forethought about where the action is going to take place that you want to shoot. Watch the pole vaulters before they vault. There are several good angles you can shoot from depending on the equipment you intend to use, and to what side the vaulter looks when going over the bar. Same thing with the high jump. I've attached a couple of shots I've gotten in the past couple months. Also if you have the capability you might limit your DOF to blow out the background. That will help isolate your subject better in all your sports shots.

TonyCooper

johng wrote:

Hi Tony. Yep, every sport has it's challenges.

The biggest thing I see in all 3 images is they all look way over processed - oversharpened, oversaturated and loss of detail. Not sure how much you cropped the photos as that can contribute greatly to the issues I'm seeing. Beyond that, you may want to consider your camera settings and/or post processing.

The next issue you'll have to address if you want to get better results is dealing with backgrounds. The backgrounds in the first two shots are very distracting. That's going to be tough to accomplish with the short lens you're currently using. It's just not designed for sports work - the backgrounds and deep dof are one of the fall-outs (as iis the need to heavily crop). It's an unfortunate fact about sports shooting - it often requires some expensive gear. No one is saying you need to run out and buy the 400mm 2.8 but you should strongly consider maybe a Sigma 70-200 2.8 or 100-300 f4. Even if you have to go budget basement and get the Nikon 70-300 - you'll see an improvement in quality by having a telephoto lens.

So shot 1 - biggest problems are distracting background, and the general IQ issues I mentioned above.

Shot 2 - very akward position. The biggest issue is that faces are important - you want to capture them in 90% of your shots. But you also want to capture the peak action - for pole vault it's as he's going over the bar. As it is, the vaulter's butt is pretty much the focal point and that's not very flattering.

Best of luck in your next outing.

If you read my first post - "Challenges" - you'll see that the problems you've discussed are what I brought up. I see the problems, but don't know how to get around them.

I'm shooting in early afternoon in bright Florida sun. Not the best time to shoot, but the venue decides the time. I don't know how I can control background because the venue controls where I shoot from. Spectators are fenced off from participants. I couldn't even position myself for good horizontal angles, let alone vertical ones where I was shooting up get sky instead of field and bleachers.

I was using a 55/200 lens; the longest I own. Naturally, I'd like to own a longer lens, but not specifically for sports photography.

Also, as I pointed out in my first post, it's not my intent to become a sports event photographer. This is a first-time attempt at a track meet. I just look for subjects and activities that are interesting to me that I haven't done before. Often, when I photograph something I've not done before, I'll look at the first attempt's result and go back and shoot differently the second time. Since track season is over, I won't be able to do that in this case.

Over-saturated and over-sharpened I can control. I shoot RAW and post-process in CSR. I don't see the over-sharpening or over-saturating, but that's why I post photos here. I want to know how others see the photographs. I'd like more specific comments about where these show up.

Cropping...at the end of this I'll add the full image as it came out of the camera with no adjustments. Tell me how I could better crop it.

The pole vaulter...I do have some shots of a vaulter clearing, or knocking over, the bar- and with faces - but this one seemed more interesting. Personal choice. The others just didn't appeal to me even though they were more conventional shots. Remember, I'm not looking for sports photographs; I'm looking for interesting photographs.

I really hate people who whine and defend their photographs when they are criticized, and I don't want to sound like that. My "defense" is more to explain the conditions rather the defend the results. If you are so inclined, I'd like more specific comments on the flaws. I want to be able to see what others see.

Here's the full, untouched, uncropped image. It's only been re-sized from 3040 x 2014 to 2400 x 1596 so it will load. I cropped to show the runners and to leave space ahead of them.

TonyCooper

SoonerShawn wrote:

I'll agree with you...there are challenges when shooting track meets, but not really much different than the challenges you are faced with when shooting football, or just about any other sport for that matter. One thing to think about when shooting a track meet is to pick your spots wisely, and with much forethought about where the action is going to take place that you want to shoot. Watch the pole vaulters before they vault. There are several good angles you can shoot from depending on the equipment you intend to use, and to what side the vaulter looks when going over the bar. Same thing with the high jump. I've attached a couple of shots I've gotten in the past couple months. Also if you have the capability you might limit your DOF to blow out the background. That will help isolate your subject better in all your sports shots.

quote]

I like the blonde going over the hurdle, but I couldn't have taken that shot. I wasn't allowed to position myself to shoot straight-in. The pole vaulter is a great shot, but none of my face-on shots came out that interesting. That's a combination of good composition AND catching the right look on the vaulter.

johng

TonyCooper wrote:

Here's the full, untouched, uncropped image. It's only been re-sized from 3040 x 2014 to 2400 x 1596 so it will load. I cropped to show the runners and to leave space ahead of them.

Thanks for posting this shot - it explains most of your quality issues. You can't crop the image that much. When framing in landscape orientation you want to fill about 3/4 of the vertical frame with your subject. You've filled only about 1/4 of it. Really the shot needs to be initially framed about as loosel as your final crop.

While you can't control where you shoot from you can control how you use your equipment. This shot was taken at 55mm - should have been taken at full 200mm.

Using the full zoom will not only improve the quality issues you have it will also blur the background more.

I really hate people who whine and defend their photographs when they are criticized, and I don't want to sound like that.

On a less important note - be careful - that's exactly how your post came across. Anyone here who is trying to help you is fully aware the time of day track meets are held. We're fully aware of the distances involved. That's the benefit of posting on a sports forum and getting advice from people who actually have experience shooting what you're trying to shoot. We've run into the same challenges you are now.

Also, as I pointed out in my first post, it's not my intent to become a sports event photographer. This is a first-time attempt at a track meet. I just look for subjects and activities that are interesting to me that I haven't done before. Often, when I photograph something I've not done before, I'll look at the first attempt's result and go back and shoot differently the second time. Since track season is over, I won't be able to do that in this case.

Tony - I can understand that. But there is room for improvement even with the equipment you have. My advice is - if you aren't interested in critique from sports photographers, you shouldn't post your photos in a sports forum - post them in a gear forum where every shot taken from the camera the people in that forum use is considered a good shot. One of the great things about this forum is there are a lot of good shooters here. People who take time to share their experience and help others get better. Very much like good camera clubs. It's not a mutual admiration society (which doesn't help anyone get better).

TonyCooper

johng wrote:

Thanks for posting this shot - it explains most of your quality issues. You can't crop the image that much. When framing in landscape orientation you want to fill about 3/4 of the vertical frame with your subject. You've filled only about 1/4 of it. Really the shot needs to be initially framed about as loosel as your final crop.

While you can't control where you shoot from you can control how you use your equipment. This shot was taken at 55mm - should have been taken at full 200mm.

The problem I encountered was framing at 200mm. During the day I was zooming in and out during the heats, but the shots where I was zoomed in I was getting parts and pieces of people. I'm sure there's a knack to anticipating in sports photography, but I haven't acquired it yet.

On a less important note - be careful - that's exactly how your post came across. Anyone here who is trying to help you is fully aware the time of day track meets are held. We're fully aware of the distances involved. That's the benefit of posting on a sports forum and getting advice from people who actually have experience shooting what you're trying to shoot. We've run into the same challenges you are now.

Sorry, but I brought that up because there were sports photographers on the field who were badged. I wasn't.

Tony - I can understand that. But there is room for improvement even with the equipment you have. My advice is - if you aren't interested in critique from sports photographers, you shouldn't post your photos in a sports forum - post them in a gear forum where every shot taken from the camera the people in that forum use is considered a good shot. One of the great things about this forum is there are a lot of good shooters here.

I'm thick-skinned. I'd rather be criticized by those who know what could have been done.

TonyCooper

Forgot to mention that I did pay attention to your (Johng) suggestion about framing with regard to what I might be cropping. Shot some (non-sports) photographs later today of a horse training facility, and paid more attention to framing closer. Lopped off some ears, though.

JESTER

Hi Tony, It's a small world. I was at that same track meet along with the Metro and the Regionals. I am one of those "badged" people as you call us. They still have a bunch of meets left (including this weekend) if you want to practice your skills. Track is fun and a challenge. You just can't keep up with everything that is going on. If you will get out of the stands and walk around the fence on the North or South ends of the field you can get some decent track shots. There are also other events such as high jump, long jump and discus you can shoot from the fence. It is helpful to have a long lens and shoot at the lowest setting to blur out the background. I shoot a lot with my 70/200 at 2.8. I also have a 300 2.8 for the long track shots. There is clutter around Showalter Field no matter which direction you shoot. If you go up by the fence in front of the snack bar you can shoot straight down the lanes and get them as they start or finish. They will let you stand there with no problems. I will be at the State Championships. Look me up if you are there. I am the old gray headed guy with a "Smugmug" strap.

TonyCooper

JESTER wrote:

Hi Tony, It's a small world. I was at that same track meet along with the Metro and the Regionals. I am one of those "badged" people as you call us. They still have a bunch of meets left (including this weekend)

I just noticed in the Sentinel this morning that the Class 1A meet is there today, but I won't be able to go. I spent the morning out near what used to be Katie's Landing (unsuccessfully) chasing a wild turkey hen and her brood, and that's my photography for the day. The turkeys were more elusive, and faster, than some of runners at the meet.

Track is fun and a challenge. You just can't keep up with everything that is going on. If you will get out of the stands and walk around the fence on the North or South ends of the field you can get some decent track shots. There are also other events such as high jump, long jump and discus you can shoot from the fence.

When I was there, they were doing the triple jump but not the broad jump.
Didn't see any sign of the shot putt or javelin. I'd probably do better with field events these because it's easier to focus on one person.

Y'all have me intimidated over long lenses, though. I'll keep working on subjects that I can get close enough to with my 5.6 55/200.

Just as an aside...check the "Wildlife" forum. There's a Winter Park shooter that caught a Florida bobcat somewhere. Great shot.

JESTER

Tony, You can get decent shots at 200 at 5.6 if you stand at the fence by the snack bar. They run straight at you! You'll just have to deal with the background clutter. Shot Putt and Discus are across the field behind the stands. You CAN walk around the fence to get to them. I don't think they do Javelin anymore. At least I haven't seen any at the meets. I'll be there the 8th and 9th for State finals.

JESTER

Here is an example of what the background can look like when you blur it out:

TonyCooper

JESTER wrote:

Tony, You can get decent shots at 200 at 5.6 if you stand at the fence by the snack bar. They run straight at you! You'll just have to deal with the background clutter. Shot Putt and Discus are across the field behind the stands. You CAN walk around the fence to get to them. I don't think they do Javelin anymore. At least I haven't seen any at the meets. I'll be there the 8th and 9th for State finals.

\

Yes, I did shoot from that first curve by the snack bar. I just didn't get a good photograph from there. I could get the runners, but I didn't get a shot that I liked. I got some nice, sharp photos with uninteresting (to me) content. As JohnG pointed out, I was shooting too wide and trying to crop to what I liked. Next time I'll shoot tighter.

If you scroll up to SoonerShawn's photos, you'll see the type of photograph that I like: the blonde girl going over the hurdle and the pole vaulter. I'm not interested in capturing sports; I'm interested in capturing people engaged in sports. I like the expressions, the intensity, and the positions.

I'd be happy to come away from a track meet with an interesting photo of a spectator or competitor relaxing between events. It just didn't happen for me that day.

I did walk around to the other side of the field. That's where I photographed the pole vaulters. Shot putt and discus events weren't going on when I was there. At least I didn't see them.

Thanks for your comments, though.

JESTER

Oops..my bad. I thought this was the Sports Forum. Maybe you should try over in the People Forum for the info you are looking for or follow JohnG's recommendations above. But the basic info applies..watch your backgrounds and shoot tight.

Just in case you get back to Showalter Field this might help:
http://www.fhsaa.org/tr/state_map.pdf

TonyCooper

JESTER wrote:

Oops..my bad. I thought this was the Sports Forum. Maybe you should try over in the People Forum for the info you are looking for or follow JohnG's recommendations above. But the basic info applies..watch your backgrounds and shoot tight.

Isn't sports photography just photographing people in a particular setting? And, photography made a little more difficult because the setting poses challenges?

In this morning's _Orlando Sentinel_ the photographs of the meet are all of single competitors shot close and tight to show expressions and intensity. The shot of Vanessa Anthony clearing a hurdle is a people shot in a sports setting.

johng

Tony - with all respect, it seems that all you want to do is argue with people trying to help you out. Jester has gone out of his way to provide site-specific advice for how to improve and all you do is argue. It's obvious you are not interested in improving or listening to the advice of experienced sports photographers. When you're actually interesting in taking advice instead of just arguing - let us know. We'll help you out. Until then, threads like this are a waste of everyone else's time and effort. Good luck. Be sure to come back and post some photos when you've decided to take the advice here instead of just making excuses for why the advice won't work.

Toshido

i forget where I have read it, but I liked it.

"Shoot tight, crop tighter"


This of course in regards to sports photography.

I hate sometimes clipping body parts, but even those shots, cropped right, can turn into interesting and good shots. Sometimes.

Also seems to be the most important advice you are getting here. Especially if you want to show emotion on the athlete. Got to get in close enough to see facial expressions and most importantly the eyes.