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Help!Event photog soccer tournament

Ann McRaeAnn McRae Registered Users Posts: 4,584 Major grins
edited June 16, 2005 in Mind Your Own Business
Just got an email asking if I would do this this weekend for a U6 and U8 soccer program!
The organizer was thinking I could set up for on site sales, but I do not have that equipment (let alone a business licence to do so).
I have heard that sales after the fact from such events are quite wobbly.

Of course, having photography at this event is a complete afterthought for the organizers, she loves my work and really hopes I will say yes.

Of course, this is something I would really like to do.

However, do I stand a chance of either getting everything in place by Saturday (possibly requiring a bank loan to buy the printer - oh yeah, what kind of printer?)
or
do I stand a chance of making sales after the fact on line?

Any ideas on this wil be greatly appreciated.

ann
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    wxwaxwxwax Registered Users Posts: 15,471 Major grins
    edited June 7, 2005
    Yikes, that's a tall order on short notice, Ann. I've seen 'em at the track, and they're all set up to display "contact sheets" so folks can order something right there. I don't know if they give them the final print there or not. They have a little booth and everything.

    Perhaps on short notice the best you could do is have some fliers with the address of the smugmug gallery you set up for the event?

    Sorry, wish I could be of more help.
    Sid.
    Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
    http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
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    MongrelMongrel Registered Users Posts: 622 Major grins
    edited June 7, 2005
    Hi Ann...
    I have been mulling over a similar predicament-that is whether to pursue on-site sales or not. Basically I'm a 'one-man-show', I take 'em, I process 'em, and I upload them to my smugmug account. I took a step just this week and put myself 'out-there' in the form of a flyer passed out to parents right after a game.

    In your case the thought of trying to pull off on-site sales in such short notice scares me quite a bit. It's one thing to set that as a goal and prepare for it, it's quite another to throw it together in a few days time.

    I don't want to discourage you from attempting on-site sales, but I would recommend you pass on it at this time. Get your $$$ together, get a plan, business license (if necessary), possibly some helpers (family members or friends to carry some of the burden).

    Some things that came to mind:

    Who is going to watch your table\setup while you are shooting the games?

    Who is going to keep track of all your sales, editing (btw-do you have a laptop or access to a pc onsite?)?

    Do they have available electricity to power up a printer?

    If you get a battery operated printer like the HI-TI Gala, will only *one* printer keep up with the demand?

    What about print media? How much do you need to buy before hand and what if you only sell a third of what you bought?

    And this is only off the top of my head. Sure it sounds great, but are you ready for it at this time?

    I would offer to shoot the tournament, and bring some samples of your work in a book to show folks. Print up some flyers with your web page, contact info, and pricing and have them available at key locations. I would even throw a sample shot or two on the flyer so people get an idea of what to expect.

    Afterward I would sit down and take the time as I said above to formulate a 'plan' and tackle it in the future. Just seems like a whole lot of money and effort to pull off so quickly.

    Good luck whichever way you decide to go...

    Mongrel
    If every keystroke was a shutter press I'd be a pro by now...
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    BridgeCityBridgeCity Registered Users Posts: 338 Major grins
    edited June 7, 2005
    "I beleive in luck. The harder I work, the luckier I get"

    I say do all that you can to make it happen! Good luck to ya
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    SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited June 7, 2005
    Ann McRae wrote:
    Just got an email asking if I would do this this weekend for a U6 and U8 soccer program!
    The organizer was thinking I could set up for on site sales, but I do not have that equipment (let alone a business licence to do so).
    I have heard that sales after the fact from such events are quite wobbly.

    Of course, having photography at this event is a complete afterthought for the organizers, she loves my work and really hopes I will say yes.

    Of course, this is something I would really like to do.

    However, do I stand a chance of either getting everything in place by Saturday (possibly requiring a bank loan to buy the printer - oh yeah, what kind of printer?)
    or
    do I stand a chance of making sales after the fact on line?

    Any ideas on this wil be greatly appreciated.

    ann
    Ann,

    I think Mongrel gave some good advice. My thoughts would be to look a little more long term. If this is what you want to do, take a few months to do research. Seek out and ask people who are currently doing the same thing at a different venue. I don't recomend reinventing the wheel. I have tried reinventing the wheel, and while I am very proud of the final wheels, I am not real pleased with the cost of those damn wheels. :D

    Also if shooting this type of an event is new, you would really benifit by going to this event and concentraiting on the photography. Treat it as research. If you sell anything great. If not, that's Ok too.

    Sam
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    digismiledigismile Registered Users Posts: 955 Major grins
    edited June 7, 2005
    Ann,

    I agree with a lot of what has been said. Like others, I've pondered how to dow this, so I've looked very carefully when I see on-site photo production. You may have seen the Brick Invitational Hockey tournament at WEM. The last couple of years they have had a photographer or two shooting continously and pass their flashcards to a person that processes the images for viewing and sale. They printed out their shots on an HP dye-sub printer. I have seen this same format at our annual Christmas party when a company comes in and takes Christmas pictures and print them on site. Dye-sub photo printers that are able to print to 8x10 for a sizeable volume are not cheap. Take a look at www.vistek.ca and take a look at the Sony and HP commercial dye-sub printers. You would need to be doing serious volume to cost justify one of these babies. Power is another constraint - not many outlets on a soccer field.

    I personally think the best way to do this in the short term (if your goal is to do as much as possible on-site) is to shoot the event, have a laptop available for viewing and take orders right there (to be printed later). Although most people do have computers, there are probably some that don't and your best chance to get them is while they're right there at the game.

    This is certainly something that would work better with 2 or more people, but I think you should be able to do it as one. If you ever consider needing help, I'm local and would love to help.

    Good luck,
    Brad
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    Ann McRaeAnn McRae Registered Users Posts: 4,584 Major grins
    edited June 7, 2005
    Hi everyone, and thanks for the quick replies

    Brad, we need to talk....look for a PM from me soon.

    I can provide a bit more info.
    First I am fairly experienced with soccer photography so think I can handle getting the shots. No worries really with that part of it.

    Second, this is a very small tournament - a total of 140 6 through 8 year olds, playing small sided games (5 per team, 25 minute total game length) all at one set of fields, all over the course of about 6 hours Saturday and another 5 on Sunday.

    I have seen quite a few event photog set ups - not sure that it is necessary to go dye sub anymore.

    I'd be quite willing to take this on and have the photos posted on my smugmug site, but am concerned that sales will be missed that way.

    I am going to have to think about the delayed sales and whether I can make contact with enough coaches to make it work. I also will have to juggle a lot of other commitments to make Saturday work at all.

    Thanks, and any more ideas or experience would be appreciated.

    ann
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    dragon300zxdragon300zx Registered Users Posts: 2,575 Major grins
    edited June 7, 2005
    Ann,

    To do a basic setup like Jostens did at all the marching band events when I was in high school wouldn't be too hard. What you would have to do is have the man power and computer equipment. A basic setup to take orders on site the way jostens did would run like this.

    People
    You - Photographer
    1 or 2 people doing sales
    1 or 2 people post processing and clearing your cards
    The sales people would need to be able to bring up the photos on a monitor to let people review as proofs for placing their order.

    Equipment at least 2 complete computers prolly more like 4, on a small pc to pc network.

    Not everyone has that kinda equipment laying around (I know I found this kinda shocking myself as an IT guru who has 6 or 7 pc's around the house) though.

    You take the photos, hand the card off to a processor, they processes and hand copies to the sales people, you get the card back when you give them the next card. The sales people show the photos and take the orders.

    Draw back, is staffing, and paying the staff.

    Or you are left with shooting the event and passing out flyers hoping the parents will keep them and order photos after the thrill of the moment is gone.

    Draw back Impulse buyers buy more than calm buyers.

    I know this is a "this one time, at band camp..." kinda statement. but the business model worked for jostens. I don't know if they are doing on site printing these days or not though.
    Everyone Has A Photographic Memory. Some Just Do Not Have Film.
    www.zxstudios.com
    http://creativedragonstudios.smugmug.com
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    Shay StephensShay Stephens Registered Users Posts: 3,165 Major grins
    edited June 8, 2005
    Just some thoughts
    Hi Ann,
    Before I got into wedding photography, I studied it for a year, figuring out what I needed, what I could do, and what I couldn't. When I got my first booking, I was ready to handle it.

    My gut feeling is that you should pass this time around while you do research to find out what you need equipment wise, paper work, business license etc. It may not take you a year to figure all that out like it did me, but if you just jump into it, I can see it costing you (money, hard knocks, etc).

    Also do some some market research. How many of these gigs do you think the area could support. Would it make it worth your while to invest your time and money into this venture or is this a one-hit-wonder opportunity? If it looks like more work could be supported by this and other potential clients, then that would be a good sign that it could be worth pursuing.

    Figure out your costs (all of them), then determine how much you have to charge to cover those costs, taxes, and real profit. Why do a job if you are only breaking even, or worse. Nothing motivates quite like real profit from a job well done. It also keeps you in business hehehe.

    For what it's worth, I hate to rain on parades, but thought it would be prudent to give a cautionary perspective here :-)
    Creator of Dgrin's "Last Photographer Standing" contest
    "Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
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    MongrelMongrel Registered Users Posts: 622 Major grins
    edited June 8, 2005
    Shay makes a lot of sense up there...
    Ann I was going to stop back in here when I got home from work, but much of what I intended to say has already been said by Dragon and Shay.

    Just a few comments.....rolleyes1.gif

    1. You can stay home *not* lose a dime, or work your butt off for two days and actually *lose* money! This is sort of like Shay said. You probably don't need to *pay* for the shooting experience at this point (meaning your work is good enough), so weigh this one out carefully.

    2. The Jostens setup described by Dragon above is exactly the type of thing I was alluding to in my initial post. The people that do this-and do it well-are very well equipped. They have trailers already setup for it and everything. I can't see attempting this with one inkjet on a card table in the concession stand.

    3. You mentioned that you didn't think dye-subs were needed at this point (I guess because inkjets print so well, are cheaper etc.). Well, when I think of printing pics at a field event, I think of-drying time, scratch resistence from rough handling, changing ink cartridges, speed, and sheer volume. In other words-DYE SUB!!! I have never heard of an onsite photog using anything else, there must be a reason for it. Oh and what if your printer breaks down? Do you have a backup?

    4. Even though this is a *small* event, how will you handle say two full teams of players, all of their parents, grandparents, and 'others' all crowded around your table looking at proofs asking questions (can I get this in a 48 X 72" billboard size?.....what's taking so long....that's not my son!....mommy I have to go to the bathroom...excuse me maam...do you know where the bathroom is?....hey, can I get a cup of coffe...hey the color on this print suks!!! I want my money back!....rolleyes1.gif ). Oh, wait a minute...you are supposed to be at field #2 RIGHT NOW taking pictures :uhoh

    5. This is a pretty important one: Reputation. IF you do this and cannot do it well, you run the risk as coming across as amateurish and not up to the task. Think about how this may affect business in the future. If you are upfront and just say-"I will shoot the event but cannot at this time provide onsite printing", you cannot fail as you know you can handle that part.

    6. I have never even attempted it, but how are you at processing pics under pressure *and* with people looking over your shoulder? I don't have the level of experience you do, and I'm a PS noob, so in my case I would probably get really flustered if I was trying to go through a gig or two worth of pics surrounded by a crowd who may or may not be trying to talk to me or look over my shoulder at the shots. In a big operation like the josten setup, the 'editors' are probably off in a corner while the salespeople are out front showing the proofs. If you work it alone (or even with one assistant) it may get a bit tense. Personally, if I didn't have at least one assistant to handle *just* that aspect of it I wouldn't enter into it.

    7. I have heard people say that onsite sales ARE NOT as lucrative as you may think. I have heard people say that they spent x number of hours sitting there all day and not sold one more pic then they would have sold just using flyers, a sample proof book, and online galleries. The sports action business is kinda funny that way-what we all think would be a no-brainer killer setup sometimes isn't. Say you invest $1000 in this venture, how many hours and how many pics do you have to sell (over the course of several games or tournaments obviously) to break even? Now compare that to what you would invest in time using what you have now and an online gallery setup.

    This is not to say-"don't even think about it..." or "I would NEVER do that". I am not trying to as Shay said "rain on your parade" either. I'm saying-hey it's a great idea. Many people do onsite work very successfully. But weigh it out carefully before you jump in.
    If every keystroke was a shutter press I'd be a pro by now...
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    Ann McRaeAnn McRae Registered Users Posts: 4,584 Major grins
    edited June 8, 2005
    You guys are great.

    I spent a great deal of time this past winter reading everything I could find about event photography and on site printing. (In fact, this is where I learned that dye sub printers are no longer necessary with the new quality of ink jets - at least that is the opinion of some people doing this stuff).
    Anyway, what I learned was that event photography was pretty hit and miss, and so I haven't invested in it. The T & I photo business is better in that you have a guarenteed amount of business once a team or league contracts you. However it is really competitive, and most leagues aren't looking for unique ability (kinda like school pictures - you get what you get). I do T & I on a smallish scale, but I find team photos frustrating because typically the coaches are unwilling to be patient enough to let the photographer set up properly or try different poses.
    I really like doing action shots, and think I am quite good at it. But I don't think that U8 soccer is going to be ripe with action, and so do not know how many shots I will get that a parent couldn't get themselves! The mom with digicam scenario that I get accused of being all the time!
    However, I do think this opportunity may allow for some portfolio building and for getting my name out there as an option. Is a weekend of my time going to be worth it in the end, financially or exposure wise?
    ann
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    mercphotomercphoto Registered Users Posts: 4,550 Major grins
    edited June 8, 2005
    Ann McRae wrote:
    However, I do think this opportunity may allow for some portfolio building and for getting my name out there as an option. Is a weekend of my time going to be worth it in the end, financially or exposure wise?
    ann

    I think you got some great advice. I'm finding my racing photo business to be much slower than I had hoped for. I also am a one-man show. No on-site viewing, order taking, or pictures. I pass out business cards before the race, talk to people when I can, get lots of web hits, and modest orders.

    I sometimes work second-camera for a guy who can do on-site viewing and order taking. He says my work is every bit as good as his, and better than many of the others in this area. But he makes enough to make a living, and he says that on-site order taking was a necessity for that to happen.

    At this point, if I could, I would contract for him more often, and do less for myself. I'm not willing to invest in what it takes to be successful at event photography. People who buy my prints love them. People who simply look at the site love them. But people's wallets open up more frequently at the event, when the emotion is high.

    If I were you, I wouldn't do that soccer event on an "official" basis. But go and shoot. Try and sell. Get the camera experience and the portfoilo. In other words, wade in a bit, but don't jump into the deep end yet.
    Bill Jurasz - Mercury Photography - Cedar Park, TX
    A former sports shooter
    Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
    My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
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    ChaseChase Registered Users Posts: 284 Major grins
    edited June 8, 2005
    One of the websites i looked at to start my photo business at (I used smugmug.com, thankfully) did have one very good system. You could order "vouchers" for your photos that cost like 20 cents, basically just a card with a coupon code describing what it is and what prints you get for buying it and your web address on it.

    Then you sell these at an event and people pick out which prints later. maybe combine this with a laptop or very basic inkjet printer printing out contact sheets of pictures just so people get an idea of what youve got. Then you arent relying on the sale later, but you actually sell the prints onsite without having to take orders and write down all sorts of information.

    Maybe smugmug.com should consider something of this type........ne_nau.gif
    www.chase.smugmug.com
    I just press the button and the camera goes CLICK. :dunno
    Canon: gripped 20d and 30d, 10-22 3.5-4.5, 17-55 IS, 50mm f1.8, 70-200L IS, 85mm f1.8, 420ex
    sigma: 10-20 4-5.6 (for sale), 24-70 2.8 (for sale), 120-300 2.8
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    Ann McRaeAnn McRae Registered Users Posts: 4,584 Major grins
    edited June 8, 2005
    This just in
    email from the lady that would like me to do this!:

    "What about if I try and get pre orders by showing them your site? You then
    let me know the cost and I will get signed forms at registration? Can this
    work?

    These are wonderful I can't stop looking at them and need to know how we can
    get you to do this. I will post them after the fact - getting signed
    releases etc....whatever you need."

    Perhaps that voucher or coupon system would work......I could let the tournament organizers presell coupons, but then I have to manage to be sure to get photos of each of the right kidsne_nau.gifne_nau.gif Hmmmmm

    ann
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    mercphotomercphoto Registered Users Posts: 4,550 Major grins
    edited June 8, 2005
    Ann McRae wrote:
    "What about if I try and get pre orders by showing them your site? You then let me know the cost and I will get signed forms at registration? Can this work?

    Perhaps that voucher or coupon system would work......I could let the tournament organizers presell coupons, but then I have to manage to be sure to get photos of each of the right kidsne_nau.gifne_nau.gif

    That's the problem with pre-sells: making sure you get photos of everyone you sold. And you get shots they actually want to buy.

    I know some race photographers are going away from pure speculative shooting and have sign up sheets. "I'm number 39, 80cc shifter senior". Etc. The photogs then pay special attention to those drivers, and little attention to others. Its not pre-pay or a guaranteed order. But it tells the photog who is actually interested in photos. They often also sell CD's of all images of that particular driver for one flat rate.

    Maybe you can do something similar? Get an idea of which players, or which teams, are truly interested in photos, and use that to guide your work for the day? But I'd be hesitant on pre-selling. Maybe others have a different take.
    Bill Jurasz - Mercury Photography - Cedar Park, TX
    A former sports shooter
    Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
    My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
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    ChaseChase Registered Users Posts: 284 Major grins
    edited June 8, 2005
    Thats why preselling with a very basic contact sheet (say a bunch of pictures to an 8.5x11 page) will work. They have an idea of what they are buying, instead of just speculation and will be more likely to be happy with prints they order, and more likely to order them in theifrst place.ne_nau.gif
    www.chase.smugmug.com
    I just press the button and the camera goes CLICK. :dunno
    Canon: gripped 20d and 30d, 10-22 3.5-4.5, 17-55 IS, 50mm f1.8, 70-200L IS, 85mm f1.8, 420ex
    sigma: 10-20 4-5.6 (for sale), 24-70 2.8 (for sale), 120-300 2.8
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    mercphotomercphoto Registered Users Posts: 4,550 Major grins
    edited June 8, 2005
    Chase wrote:
    Thats why preselling with a very basic contact sheet (say a bunch of pictures to an 8.5x11 page) will work. They have an idea of what they are buying, instead of just speculation and will be more likely to be happy with prints they order, and more likely to order them in theifrst place.ne_nau.gif

    I guess I misunderstand the notion of "pre-selling". To me, the above is simply on-site selling. They see the photo on the contact sheet and place an order after they have seen the photo. I guess you could take their money and give them a coupon for on-line. Or take their address and mail them a photo later.

    The other thing is they take home an image name, search for the image name, and order on-line the normal fashion.

    Wonder which of these would work best?
    Bill Jurasz - Mercury Photography - Cedar Park, TX
    A former sports shooter
    Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
    My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
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    Shay StephensShay Stephens Registered Users Posts: 3,165 Major grins
    edited June 8, 2005
    Warning: Pure speculation here
    Ok, here I sit, cringing at the thought of this whole business model. Of course, I cringe because I know next to nothing about it. So looking at this from my own background, how would this work:

    Instead of shooting spec, how about trying to shoot on commission. Have one player (or whatever) hire you to shoot them in action. Hero shots, actions shots, candid shots. Deliver a gallery of shots and maybe include a certain amount of prints or whatever it is people usually order.

    Once word spreads, you would get more people commissioning you to shoot them. Maybe limit it to an amount of time that you concentrate on them only before it is time to move on to the next customer, if you have multiple for the event. Maybe you can multitask and shoot both as they become interesting, then divide out the shots to their respective gallery.

    That way you go in knowing what you will be making.

    How crazy is this? Has it already been tried and proven a failure? I see it as kind of a modified portrait shoot, engagement session, or wedding type plan.
    Creator of Dgrin's "Last Photographer Standing" contest
    "Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
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    mercphotomercphoto Registered Users Posts: 4,550 Major grins
    edited June 8, 2005
    Instead of shooting spec, how about trying to shoot on commission. Have one player (or whatever) hire you to shoot them in action. Hero shots, actions shots, candid shots. Deliver a gallery of shots and maybe include a certain amount of prints or whatever it is people usually order.

    Neat idea. I tried this (briefly) with the kart racing. I called it my "Podium Package". Cute, heh? The idea was they pre-pay for me to pay attention to them. Lots of photos. Pit candids. Even a portrait at the track with their kart if they wish. Then they get a CD-ROM with all the pictures. Plus a password protected gallery on my Smug site that they can email photos from or post to forums. Plus the ability to buy photos and gifts from my site at much reduced prices.

    I had several people say it was a good idea. No takers yet. But in reality, I haven't pushed this idea hard enough yet to know if it works.
    Bill Jurasz - Mercury Photography - Cedar Park, TX
    A former sports shooter
    Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
    My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
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    ChaseChase Registered Users Posts: 284 Major grins
    edited June 8, 2005
    Ok, here I sit, cringing at the thought of this whole business model. Of course, I cringe because I know next to nothing about it. So looking at this from my own background, how would this work:

    Instead of shooting spec, how about trying to shoot on commission. Have one player (or whatever) hire you to shoot them in action. Hero shots, actions shots, candid shots. Deliver a gallery of shots and maybe include a certain amount of prints or whatever it is people usually order.

    Once word spreads, you would get more people commissioning you to shoot them. Maybe limit it to an amount of time that you concentrate on them only before it is time to move on to the next customer, if you have multiple for the event. Maybe you can multitask and shoot both as they become interesting, then divide out the shots to their respective gallery.

    That way you go in knowing what you will be making.

    How crazy is this? Has it already been tried and proven a failure? I see it as kind of a modified portrait shoot, engagement session, or wedding type plan.
    I am trying to do this with my neighbor who loves my photos of her son playing baseball (she just ordered 115 dollars worth at 99 cents a print today) to hire me to shoot her son, another kid, and their coach at the sectional all star game. Flat fee to hire me and they get all the pictures they want. That would be ideal, but i think it is harder to arrange than you think. ne_nau.gif
    www.chase.smugmug.com
    I just press the button and the camera goes CLICK. :dunno
    Canon: gripped 20d and 30d, 10-22 3.5-4.5, 17-55 IS, 50mm f1.8, 70-200L IS, 85mm f1.8, 420ex
    sigma: 10-20 4-5.6 (for sale), 24-70 2.8 (for sale), 120-300 2.8
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    Shay StephensShay Stephens Registered Users Posts: 3,165 Major grins
    edited June 8, 2005
    Interesting Bill and Chase, thanks for the info. Now, let me ask, do either of you have a sample you can show a prospective client? If not, have you considered self commissioning yourself to shoot someone and then create your CD, gallery, etc to show a real world example? I know this makes a big difference when trying to book a wedding or engagement session.


    Chase wrote:
    I am trying to do this with my neighbor who loves my photos of her son playing baseball (she just ordered 115 dollars worth at 99 cents a print today) to hire me to shoot her son, another kid, and their coach at the sectional all star game. Flat fee to hire me and they get all the pictures they want. That would be ideal, but i think it is harder to arrange than you think. ne_nau.gif
    Creator of Dgrin's "Last Photographer Standing" contest
    "Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
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    ChaseChase Registered Users Posts: 284 Major grins
    edited June 8, 2005
    Interesting Bill and Chase, thanks for the info. Now, let me ask, do either of you have a sample you can show a prospective client? If not, have you considered self commissioning yourself to shoot someone and then create your CD, gallery, etc to show a real world example? I know this makes a big difference when trying to book a wedding or engagement session.
    She really liked me samples from the baseball game where i shot both teams, and would like even more photographs than that. So if he makes it to the all stars, she will hire me and depending on what she wants, pay for some equipment rental as well. Pretty much if her son makes it to the all stars, she is going to hire me, i think. That will then be my first one to use as an "example" to other prospective clients. I just thought of offering this about 2 weeks ago so, I havent really pushed it very hard. ne_nau.gif
    www.chase.smugmug.com
    I just press the button and the camera goes CLICK. :dunno
    Canon: gripped 20d and 30d, 10-22 3.5-4.5, 17-55 IS, 50mm f1.8, 70-200L IS, 85mm f1.8, 420ex
    sigma: 10-20 4-5.6 (for sale), 24-70 2.8 (for sale), 120-300 2.8
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    MongrelMongrel Registered Users Posts: 622 Major grins
    edited June 8, 2005
    'Sports Portrait Sessions'
    that is a very interesting concept guys. Worth thinking about for sure.

    I'll share how I got to the point I'm at and see how that fits into this discussion, it may be of value to someone who is looking to get exposure for their work.

    I basically got started shooting my two daughter's playing soccer, field hockey, basketball, and lacrosse. I just concentrated on shots of them because I wasn't comfortable shooting the other kids. Little by little however, I started shooting the whole team. I was improving my skills and upgrading my gear at a pretty fast rate.

    About two years ago I gave all the girl's on the hockey teams pictures of themselves in action on the field with their names photoshopped onto the print. I made up 4X6's for the girls, and 5X7's of the coaches kids. Well, when they realized that the "dad with the big camera" could take a pretty good picture, I started getting 'requests' to shoot this game or that game, and "by the way do you have any shots of ___________?"

    Last year I provided over 150 shots of an entire season featuring every girl on the team for an end of the season banquet. That was it. I had just shown my portfolio to a pretty large group of parents, coaches, and players and they *knew* I was doing something no one else in my town was doing or has done since.

    After that banquet it was basically-"You really have to do something with your pictures" and "How do I buy prints of my daughter?". That night my 'business' was born. I had really only invested time with no real expectation of compensation, or thought that I *really* could do something with it. I'm happy to report, that I *can* and more importantly *I am* doing something with it.

    Bottome line-if you take them (especially in an area where no else is, or no one else is as good as you are :): ), they *will* come!
    If every keystroke was a shutter press I'd be a pro by now...
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    ChaseChase Registered Users Posts: 284 Major grins
    edited June 8, 2005
    Mongrel wrote:
    that is a very interesting concept guys. Worth thinking about for sure.

    I'll share how I got to the point I'm at and see how that fits into this discussion, it may be of value to someone who is looking to get exposure for their work.

    I basically got started shooting my two daughter's playing soccer, field hockey, basketball, and lacrosse. I just concentrated on shots of them because I wasn't comfortable shooting the other kids. Little by little however, I started shooting the whole team. I was improving my skills and upgrading my gear at a pretty fast rate.

    About two years ago I gave all the girl's on the hockey teams pictures of themselves in action on the field with their names photoshopped onto the print. I made up 4X6's for the girls, and 5X7's of the coaches kids. Well, when they realized that the "dad with the big camera" could take a pretty good picture, I started getting 'requests' to shoot this game or that game, and "by the way do you have any shots of ___________?"

    Last year I provided over 150 shots of an entire season featuring every girl on the team for an end of the season banquet. That was it. I had just shown my portfolio to a pretty large group of parents, coaches, and players and they *knew* I was doing something no one else in my town was doing or has done since.

    After that banquet it was basically-"You really have to do something with your pictures" and "How do I buy prints of my daughter?". That night my 'business' was born. I had really only invested time with no real expectation of compensation, or thought that I *really* could do something with it. I'm happy to report, that I *can* and more importantly *I am* doing something with it.

    Bottome line-if you take them (especially in an area where no else is, or no one else is as good as you are :): ), they *will* come!
    I live in southern california, aka aswarm with photographers. umph.gif
    www.chase.smugmug.com
    I just press the button and the camera goes CLICK. :dunno
    Canon: gripped 20d and 30d, 10-22 3.5-4.5, 17-55 IS, 50mm f1.8, 70-200L IS, 85mm f1.8, 420ex
    sigma: 10-20 4-5.6 (for sale), 24-70 2.8 (for sale), 120-300 2.8
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    Ann McRaeAnn McRae Registered Users Posts: 4,584 Major grins
    edited June 9, 2005
    This thread just gets better and better. I have some info to share based on my personal experiences and others that I have 'discussed' this with at other forums. I am toast right now, so will share this info in the morning!


    ann
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    MongrelMongrel Registered Users Posts: 622 Major grins
    edited June 9, 2005
    Hey Chase...
    Chase wrote:
    I live in southern california, aka aswarm with photographers. umph.gif
    You should move to South Jersey (yes, inspite of what you have heard-South Jersey IS a state umph.gif ), we could team up!

    I live in a town of about 7,000 people all squished into a two mile square-roughly-area. We are surrounded on all sides by an ever growing suburban (formerly all *woods*) sprawl. I've only seen one other person shooting ANY of these games, and she shoots for the REC league one town over.

    Ann, I'm glad you are getting into this, I was afraid we were 'hi-jacking' your thread eek7.gif . If you'd like us to move out maybe we could start another? ne_nau.gif
    And Ann, it's 1:18am what are you still doing up umph.gif

    We could let this one be the on-site printing thread....

    Take care all,

    Mongrel
    If every keystroke was a shutter press I'd be a pro by now...
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    NikolaiNikolai Registered Users Posts: 19,035 Major grins
    edited June 9, 2005
    You got that right:-)
    Chase wrote:
    I live in southern california, aka aswarm with photographers. umph.gif
    Although I must say - nice big light makes all the difference:-)
    "May the f/stop be with you!"
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    Ann McRaeAnn McRae Registered Users Posts: 4,584 Major grins
    edited June 9, 2005
    Okay, I am more awake now (only slightly - too many interruptions to call it a good night sleep).


    I started this little journey by deciding I wanted to have a digital camera to take photos of my kids playing soccer. That little decision grew into a monster obsession with photography and a real desire to get good at it. The reality of my schedule right now is that after work, soccer is the primary use of my time. So if I want to do any photography, then it must be soccer related.

    So I've been shooting my kids games for the last 3 or 4 years. I have gone from the Sony 707 through the 828 and on to the 20d. The 20d was a giant financial step for me but necessary for doing indoor soccer well. I have always shared the photos through a web gallery, and last year started 'charging' for prints. As it has always been my own kids teams, my prices have been fairly low. With the 20d purchase, and the feedback that I was really getting good at sports photography, I decided to try to generate some lens money from sports photography. So I spent a pile of time reading about the various business models of sports photography.

    There are 3 different kinds of sports photo businesses, as far as I can tell.
    1. Freelance or hired media photographers
    2. T & I photographers - additional prints are the money makers here - trading cards and calendars
    3. Event photographers.
    The event photographers from other forums have indicated a few things:
    1. When they are 'hired' by a league to do event photography, they often 'donate' (kickback?) a percentage of sales to the league.
    2. On site sales are the way to go, as there is a big Impluse buy componenet to this business.
    3. Web sales are not particularly successful

    In terms of preselling, one photographer that I have discussed things with presells a cd of all images from a game to parents. He charges each parent $10 ahead of time, comes out to the game and does his thing and then puts the cd together. He typically has about half a football team prebuy.

    The big event photography company in Edmonton is not big enough to handle all the tournaments for all the sports out there. As well, they seem to be concentrating more and more on T & I shots.

    I know a particular parent that drops a hundred dollars a tournament on photos and 5 images on cd for $25 every opportunity he gets.
    I have been approached while photographing my own kids by other parents about getting shots of their kids. They are surprised when I tell them I am not the event photographer.

    My own sales to parents from my kids teams were mediochre last year - there is a big component to not buying when they have access to the photos from each game. I sold more to parents from the opposing teams when they found my stuff (hard to do when there is an expectation of privacy from some parents)!

    My doing 5 sets of T & I, plus sales of action photos paid for my 85 mm f 1.8 and about 1/3 of my camera. Additional photo purchases were higher from the 'other' teams I did than from my own teams. Again, I think this is the familiarity thing, and the ability to wait for the next game because there might be something better coming along.

    However, I am getting a lot of compliments, more orders this season and of course the request to do this tournament. By the way, parents of younger kids are better customers than those with older kids. I do not expect any 'fantastic header shots' or 'good shoulder to shoulder action' from this tournament, but think I will get lots of great smiling faces. The fields won't be cluttered with players either, as it is a 3 v 3 tournament, so the opportunity to isolate Janey shoud be quite good.

    I put together the following sample gallery for advertising purposes. Let me know what you think.

    http://canadian-ann.smugmug.com/gallery/582820

    ann
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    mercphotomercphoto Registered Users Posts: 4,550 Major grins
    edited June 9, 2005
    Ann McRae wrote:
    The event photographers from other forums have indicated a few things:
    1. When they are 'hired' by a league to do event photography, they often 'donate' (kickback?) a percentage of sales to the league.
    2. On site sales are the way to go, as there is a big Impluse buy componenet to this business.
    3. Web sales are not particularly successful

    I think you're finding out some of the same stuff I am. I'm not sure if that is good or bad for either of us. :)

    Point 1: when the local kart track approached me for an exclusive photography contract, I got the rights to competition-free sales. They got free images in return. Many told me this wasn't a good exchange. To some degree I agree. The terms were renegotiated to limit the amount of free images they get per race. This would be worthwhile if the web orders from racers were very high. Personally, since I don't do on-site orders, I find exclusivity worth something. Just not sure how much yet.

    Which brings us to point 3: Web traffic is very high. Images are water-marked so they are useless to steal. But sales volume is rather low. As you found out, web only is not lucrative. The impluse is gone.

    And now we're at point 2: Everyone I talk to says on-site order taking (even if not making prints on-site) is a must. And that requires capital expenditure plus an extra helper.

    Bill's point 4: I have also been told that the speculative event photography cash-cow has come and gone. The exact words I got off Rob Galbraith forums. Makes that capital expenditure in point 2 seem a waste.

    As I get more well-known at the track by the racers, the orders are slowly increasing in volume. It is a noticeable trend. As a real estate agent told me, it is too soon to give up. The track has been around since January. Persistance. Keep showing up, every race, taking photos, handing out business cards, posting images. Let them get to know you.

    He might be right. Then again, due to point 3, even without a competing photographer, web sales may never get high enough to make it worth my time. Selling digital files on the side has helped (Smugmug, how about them digital downloads?...) There are some people who only want digital files.

    Which finally brings me to Bill's point 5: The quantum theory of photography. Quantum theory is rather complicated, but one general nutshell is that nothing is "continuous", but is rather "discrete". Energy is not absorbed by atoms in any quantity you want, for example. Rather, it can absorb X amount. Any less and it doesn't absorb it. Then it can absorb Z amount. Throw something inbetween X and Z (such as Y), and it will only absorb the X. It comes in discrete steps, not in continuous steps.

    Ditto, I believe, with photography. I'm currently putting in X effort into the racing photos. If I put in an extra 10% of effort (Y), I am likely to get back no additional income. If I put in 20% of extra effort, same thing. I am likely to have to put in a much larger chunck of additional effort (Z) to see any meaningful increase in sales. Dunno, but that's my theory, and I'm sticking to it. :)
    Bill Jurasz - Mercury Photography - Cedar Park, TX
    A former sports shooter
    Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
    My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
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    mercphotomercphoto Registered Users Posts: 4,550 Major grins
    edited June 9, 2005
    Interesting Bill and Chase, thanks for the info. Now, let me ask, do either of you have a sample you can show a prospective client? If not, have you considered self commissioning yourself to shoot someone and then create your CD, gallery, etc to show a real world example? I know this makes a big difference when trying to book a wedding or engagement session.

    As per samples, this is what I do. The club house at the track has over a dozen 16x20's of my prints up, with my business cards so they know who took them. I also bring along packets of sample 8x10's to browse. People do look. My images also end up in the track's newsletter, with photo credits.

    I have considered commissioning myself, but not sure how to get the word out. My first idea was a $100 package, hopefully pre-paid. That driver gets extra attention. More shots of him, at more angles. Pit shots too. At-track portraits in uniform. Etc. I spend less time photographing others, more photographing them. The idea is, also, to limit how many of those orders I take per racing class. Probably two per class at most. Anymore, and the ability to pay special attention decreases rapidly.

    I had several prior print customers say it was a good idea, but nobody has asked for the offer yet. I'm reconsidering several ideas. One would be a $50 CD after the event. All photos of you for that race that I happened to get by chance. This requires I photograph everyone speculatively. I've already had some success at selling individual files this way for $10 each. Then the "Podium Package", described above, in limited quantities per event. Hopefully I get to the point people will pre-pay, or pay at the race, for such a package.
    Bill Jurasz - Mercury Photography - Cedar Park, TX
    A former sports shooter
    Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
    My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
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    ian408ian408 Administrators Posts: 21,911 moderator
    edited June 10, 2005
    Wow. There's a lot of very good information here.

    One thing I keep thinking about on-site sales is the time required to
    get the images processed and ready for customers. It's time consuming
    and labor intensive.

    Ann, a comment on your gallery. I like the action and the different
    posters you've got. It gives a good idea of what you're capable of.
    However, I would go through the images and be sure each is color
    balanced and not too OE. An example is 1 of 15. It needs a horizon
    fix (to the right) and the face on blue is OE. 7 of 15 has a bit of a
    magenta tone to it.

    To emphasize, the gallery is a great idea. A 'contact sheet' from the
    gallery might also be an idea as might be to print a dozen images and
    stick 'em into a binder (like you would a traveling sales pitch). I was
    reminded of this the other day while shooting surfers--one of the other
    photogs keeps a book with him that he shows to prospective customers.
    It has a nice variety of shots and is something the prospect can hold in
    their hand during the sales pitch.

    Best of luck with your assignment! I know you'll do a great job.


    Ian
    Moderator Journeys/Sports/Big Picture :: Need some help with dgrin?
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