Concerns with Bay Photo

buckeyenut

I did a little experiment to see the best way for people to order my pictures. I took about 7 or 8 photos and uploaded them with and without running them through I2E. For the photos I ran through I2E, I used the settings recommended by Andy and just auto corrected them.

I ordered 4x6 photos all in Luster 3 different ways.

1. Photos without I2E applied and Bay Photo color correction turned on
2. Photos with I2E applied and Bay Photo color correction turned on
3. Photos with I2E applied and Bay Photo color correction turned off (True Color)

I added backprinting to each photo so I would know which ones were which and asked about a dozen people to pick out which one they liked best of the 3 for each different photo.

In nearly every case they picked number 3 above I2E applied with color correction turned off. In a few cases they picked number 2 I2E applied and color correctio turned on. Only 1 person picked 1 photo that was no I2E and Bay Photo color correction.

Needless to say, this was very concerning. Bay Photo is supposed to be doing hand color correction and we are paying for it to be done yet in almost every case I2E resulted in a much better looking picture.

What exactly is Bay Photo color correcting. When I read hand color corrected, I assume good quality color correction which doesnt appear to be the case.

For those at Smugmug, here is my order #972699 (there were other photos in the order so only look at the 4x6 soccer photos). It would be great if someone at Smugmug could review the order and let me know if I did something wrong or whether there is reason to be concerned with paying Bay Photo to color correct our photos.



(UPDATE) All of the photos I did the comparison on were outdoor soccer photos

WinsomeWorks

buckeyenut wrote:

I did a little experiment to see the best way for people to order my pictures. I took about 7 or 8 photos and uploaded them with and without running them through I2E. For the photos I ran through I2E, I used the settings recommended by Andy and just auto corrected them.

I ordered 4x6 photos all in Luster 3 different ways.

1. Photos without I2E applied and Bay Photo color correction turned on
2. Photos with I2E applied and Bay Photo color correction turned on
3. Photos with I2E applied and Bay Photo color correction turned off (True Color)

I added backprinting to each photo so I would know which ones were which and asked about a dozen people to pick out which one they liked best of the 3 for each different photo.

In nearly every case they picked number 3 above I2E applied with color correction turned off. In a few cases they picked number 2 I2E applied and color correctio turned on. Only 1 person picked 1 photo that was no I2E and Bay Photo color correction.

Needless to say, this was very concerning. Bay Photo is supposed to be doing hand color correction and we are paying for it to be done yet in almost every case I2E resulted in a much better looking picture.

What exactly is Bay Photo color correcting. When I read hand color corrected, I assume good quality color correction which doesnt appear to be the case.

For those at Smugmug, here is my order #972699. It would be great if someone at Smugmug could review the order and let me know if I did something wrong or whether there is reason to be concerned with paying Bay Photo to color correct our photos.

I haven't seen your photos, obviously, but on first thought, I'm just wondering if it's wise to be concerned yet (I haven't tried Bay Photo yet). If I were testing a batch of photos though, I think I'd want to test many more than 7 or 8. I'd probably be testing 20 or 30 in a variety of lighting situations, and a range of people, scenery, buildings, etc. (unless you only ever shoot in one of these categories). I'd definitely want to try with and without flash, and a combination of close, wide angle, normal and zoom shots. If all these came back with the responses you got, then I'd start to wonder a little more. I confess, I don't know what I2E is, so maybe this is not a truly informed response! Good luck-- I'll be interested to hear more.

Andy

Hi, I'd like to see the order #s, thanks!

jfriend

Andy wrote:

Hi, I'd like to see the order #s, thanks!

It's in his first post.

Andy

jfriend wrote:

It's in his first post.

Yup, got it

cabbey

I'm a little confused with your test galleries...

Is the one named "Test Photos" without I2E, and "Test Photos color correction on" and "test color correction off" are with I2E auto applied?

I'm not one of the color specialists, but I am a photographer, and to my eye these images were close to perfect to begin with. About the only thing I'd say is the WB looks a little to the blue side on some of the skin tones. But it looks like you're shooting into the sun, so those are all shadow side. I'm in particular looking at the three renditions of U6Girls20090425_022.jpg and _012, though I can't seem to find the non-I2E version of that, looking at the ones near it, like _011, _010 and _013 it looks like I2E blew out the almost blown out anyway hair on the little blond girl... but didn't otherwise do much to the image. (great captures btw.)

I have asked our color guys to look at this thread when they get a chance though. Of course without seeing what you got back ourselves, it's hard to know what bay's correctors did.

update: haha, of course while I was typing, Andy's already on it... here I thought he was napping.

Andy

Bay hand corrects for white balance, exposure, skin tone, density and accuracy for color. They don't raise shadows, independently or sharpen, like I2E can (and does, if you use the settings that I've recommended in the past). They're different types of correction.

I'm going to ask Larry to comment, too, stay tuned

buckeyenut

Andy wrote:

Bay hand corrects for white balance, exposure, skin tone, density and accuracy for color. They don't raise shadows, independently or sharpen, like I2E can (and does, if you use the settings that I've recommended in the past). They're different types of correction.

I'm going to ask Larry to comment, too, stay tuned

Thanks for the quick response. I renamed the test galleries to make it easier.

Cabbey mentioned he can't find the non I2E version of some of the pictures. I think I remember what I did now. I uploaded a lot of pictures to the gallery called test and all were run through I2E. I made copies of some of them and then moved them to 2 galleries which are now named Test Photos I2E color correct off and Test Photos I2E color correct off. The photos that I ordered that were not run through I2E with color correct on were ordered from my main galleries. However I have now replaced the pictures in one of those galleries (OP Black 04-24-09) with an I2E version since everyone liked it better. If it will help, I can reupload the non I2E versions of the pictures for that gallery. All of the of the other galleries should still be as they were when I ordered the pictures.

Sorry for the confusion, I guess I thought the files would somehow be saved somewhere from the order itself and you could use that for a comparison.

buckeyenut

cabbey wrote:

I'm a little confused with your test galleries...

Is the one named "Test Photos" without I2E, and "Test Photos color correction on" and "test color correction off" are with I2E auto applied?

I'm not one of the color specialists, but I am a photographer, and to my eye these images were close to perfect to begin with. About the only thing I'd say is the WB looks a little to the blue side on some of the skin tones. But it looks like you're shooting into the sun, so those are all shadow side. I'm in particular looking at the three renditions of U6Girls20090425_022.jpg and _012, though I can't seem to find the non-I2E version of that, looking at the ones near it, like _011, _010 and _013 it looks like I2E blew out the almost blown out anyway hair on the little blond girl... but didn't otherwise do much to the image. (great captures btw.)

I have asked our color guys to look at this thread when they get a chance though. Of course without seeing what you got back ourselves, it's hard to know what bay's correctors did.

update: haha, of course while I was typing, Andy's already on it... here I thought he was napping.

The non I2e Versions of those pictures can be found here

http://www.buckeyenutphoto.com/gallery/8015275_biiw3#522904333_44ZU2[/url]

Please see my post above about the different galleries. I2E made a very big difference in the pictures. All the photos in the test gallery have been run through I2E when compared to the non I2E galleries they look a lot different in my opinion.

Papalouie

buckeyenut wrote:

I did a little experiment to see the best way for people to order my pictures. I took about 7 or 8 photos and uploaded them with and without running them through I2E. For the photos I ran through I2E, I used the settings recommended by Andy and just auto corrected them.

I ordered 4x6 photos all in Luster 3 different ways.

1. Photos without I2E applied and Bay Photo color correction turned on
2. Photos with I2E applied and Bay Photo color correction turned on
3. Photos with I2E applied and Bay Photo color correction turned off (True Color)

I added backprinting to each photo so I would know which ones were which and asked about a dozen people to pick out which one they liked best of the 3 for each different photo.

In nearly every case they picked number 3 above I2E applied with color correction turned off. In a few cases they picked number 2 I2E applied and color correctio turned on. Only 1 person picked 1 photo that was no I2E and Bay Photo color correction.

Needless to say, this was very concerning. Bay Photo is supposed to be doing hand color correction and we are paying for it to be done yet in almost every case I2E resulted in a much better looking picture.

What exactly is Bay Photo color correcting. When I read hand color corrected, I assume good quality color correction which doesnt appear to be the case.

For those at Smugmug, here is my order #972699 (there were other photos in the order so only look at the 4x6 soccer photos). It would be great if someone at Smugmug could review the order and let me know if I did something wrong or whether there is reason to be concerned with paying Bay Photo to color correct our photos.


(UPDATE) All of the photos I did the comparison on were outdoor soccer photos

First thing I would like to do is to have one of our top correctors redo this order and send it off to you. This is under way and will be shipped to you Friday.

Color correction is simply a trained human looking at the files and adjusting them before printing. The things that can be adjusted are Density, Red, Green, Blue, Contrast, and Saturation. This should produce better results on a fairly consistent basis. In this test, it apparently did not, in another test it would.

To broaden the subject matter, I had the SM Control images in that order color corrected and are coming in that package so take a look at those also. I know what we do and I can guarantee you it works and is often mandatory. I would suggest a test with a variety of different subject matters, maybe some with more skin tone visible. So it may be that for this job, for you, color correction is not necessary, but on your next job or on certain images within this job it could make all the difference. Of course it can also be that the color corrector did not do the best job possible with hand color correction on this order. I'm not trying to be vague simply saying that color correction has tremendous value, there are humans involved, and it is difficult to paint it with a broad stroke. Take a look at the prints we are sending you and let me know what you think. larry@bayphoto.com

cjyphoto

Okay, frustration building. WTF is 12E?

DrDavid

cjyphoto wrote:

Okay, frustration building. WTF is 12E?

It's I2E, not 12E. That's a letter, not a number.

You can find the webpage here: http://www.colour-science.com/IE/ImageEditor.htm

You can find the deal here: http://www.smugmug.com/clubsmug

And, seriously, relax

buckeyenut

Papalouie wrote:

First thing I would like to do is to have one of our top correctors redo this order and send it off to you. This is under way and will be shipped to you Friday.

Color correction is simply a trained human looking at the files and adjusting them before printing. The things that can be adjusted are Density, Red, Green, Blue, Contrast, and Saturation. This should produce better results on a fairly consistent basis. In this test, it apparently did not, in another test it would.

To broaden the subject matter, I had the SM Control images in that order color corrected and are coming in that package so take a look at those also. I know what we do and I can guarantee you it works and is often mandatory. I would suggest a test with a variety of different subject matters, maybe some with more skin tone visible. So it may be that for this job, for you, color correction is not necessary, but on your next job or on certain images within this job it could make all the difference. Of course it can also be that the color corrector did not do the best job possible with hand color correction on this order. I'm not trying to be vague simply saying that color correction has tremendous value, there are humans involved, and it is difficult to paint it with a broad stroke. Take a look at the prints we are sending you and let me know what you think. larry@bayphoto.com

We'll I got the re-order a few days ago and compared the pictures. All of the ones color corrected by Bay look better in this order then the last including the ones run through I2E and color corrected. I did the same comparison as last time only on a few of the photos and imo the ones run through I2E both with color correction on and true color look a little better then the ones only color corrected by Bay Photo. It certainly is much closer this time and may be just personal preference.


I also looked the control images. I am assuming what you did was run the control images through I2E and printed in true color as the backprinting says I2E color corr off. For the black and white one I really couldnt see any difference, for the soccer kid, they both look good with the big difference being in the skin tones. I would have to see the kid to know which one was more realistic but both are very good and no one would ever complain. For the wedding picture, the control image has a nice background but the one color corrected through I2E seems to have better skin tones and the hair look a little redder which I would assume is more realistic. Again both are good and aybody would probably be happy with them.

I agree that there may be times that Bay color correcting the images is going to look better but how do you know ahead of time and how do you only have them do certain images within the same gallery without a lot of work moving them around. Given the results it seems to make sense to just run them through I2E and save the extra cost of color correcting. Clearly I can't always do both ways and see which is better, it is too expensive.


Please provide your opinion. This time I included a link to 3 images I compared in all three formats in case anyone wants to chime in. The filenames indicate whether it was run through I2E and/or color corrected. I tried attaching the pictures to this post directly but it wont let me attach more then 1 file.

http://buckeyenutphoto.smugmug.com/gallery/8332507_Zpyay#546021029_Fwrt9