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Noise Removal software like Noise Ninja

canon400dcanon400d Banned Posts: 2,826 Major grins
edited May 25, 2009 in Finishing School
Today it was quite dull when I was taking some shots of the huge wind turbines we have in the UK. I was really struggling to get a result on the LCD and although I was using a 17-55 2.8 and then used a 70-200 F.4 I was still struggling so I put the ISO up to 1600 on the 40D. I managed to get a result which looked not to bad in the histogram and LCD. Needless to say a lot of the shots when I got home were quite noisy.
I have looked at Noise Ninja and I downloaded the Standard version and wow what a difference it made to the image. I see there is a professional version so what would you advise me to do. I usually jump in feet first but I would like your opinions. In actual fact I don't usually have any problems with noise but I certainly found it today and It is obviously a problem which is lurking out there so any advice would be really appreciated.
Regards
Bob

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    pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,699 moderator
    edited May 16, 2009
    Bob, there are at least a half dozen different noise eliminating programs including Noise Ninja, Neat Image, DFine, Noise Ware, DeNoise, Topaz DeNoise, and a command in Photoshop as well. All work reasonably well, but many need a distinct profile for each different camera or are more expensive, or both. Topaz Denoise works rather nicely.

    I have used Neat Image, Noise Ninja, NoiseWare, Topaz DeNoise, as well as commands in Photoshop over the years.

    I currently use NoiseWare as my standard denoising tool, as I find it the easiest to use, and it works extremely well with minimal input on my part. Pretty much click and go. Andrew Rodney uses it also, as he has said here on dgrin several times, for the same reasons I gave.

    I always denoise on an adjustment layer so that I can fine tune the opacity of the denoising when I am done. I frequently denoise only selected parts of my image, rather than the whole image - a noisy sky for instance shot at ISO 1600+

    You might post your image so that we can see what disturbs you about it.

    I think a lot of ISO 1600 images from a 40D will fare rather well without denoising. The real key to minimizing noise is shooting to the right and avoiding under exposure. Under exposed lower quarter tones are where most of the noise in am image lives.

    Here is an image from my 40D at ISO 1600 for comparison from a family Christmas snapshot

    235391213_8wdiu-L.jpg
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
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    dlplumerdlplumer Registered Users Posts: 8,081 Major grins
    edited May 16, 2009
    Good response.

    PF, is there is a way to selectively de-noise without PS?

    Thanks,
    Dan
    Dan
    http://danielplumer.com/
    Facebook Fan Page
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    pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,699 moderator
    edited May 16, 2009
    dlplumer wrote:
    Good response.

    PF, is there is a way to selectively de-noise without PS?

    Thanks,
    Dan

    Dan, there are some stand alone programs that will denoise without Photoshop - NoiseWare is one that I know of.

    But I think the only way to denoise a selected portion of an image requires the use of selection tools and layers, and Photoshop is the most available way to do this.

    I suspect there are Gimp users, or Corel users, or maybe other photo editors that have layers and masking ability that can do it, but I do not use them, and cannot really answer your question.

    I would like to add that Topaz DeNoise may be pretty good also. I have been playing with Topaz Adjust ( which uses DeNoise ) and Topaz Simplify recently and find I like them a great deal.

    This self portrait was done with Topaz software

    518820307_uCu32-M.jpg

    This image was run through Topaz Adjust and Topaz simplify

    505443434_Wmgq3-XL.jpg
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
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    ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 23,910 moderator
    edited May 16, 2009
    dlplumer wrote:
    Good response.

    PF, is there is a way to selectively de-noise without PS?

    Thanks,
    Dan

    Dan,

    If you use Windows you may be able to do a 2 program, 2-step selective noise reduction.

    RAWTherapee is a great freeware RAW image converter and it has a decent noise reduction capability. If you save 2 versions of an image, original and denoised, you should be able to import the images into a freeware program like Paint.NET or GIMP that allows layers and use the 2 versions of the image to selectively add or remove noise at will (or at least up to the capabilities of the software involved.) I think both Paint.NET and the GIMP are 8 bit only so you'll also need to save the files in 8 bit mode files.

    http://www.rawtherapee.com/
    http://graphicssoft.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=graphicssoft&cdn=compute&tm=16&f=11&tt=33&bt=0&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.getpaint.net/index.html
    http://www.gimp.org/
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
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    canon400dcanon400d Banned Posts: 2,826 Major grins
    edited May 16, 2009
    pathfinder wrote:
    Dan, there are some stand alone programs that will denoise without Photoshop - NoiseWare is one that I know of.

    But I think the only way to denoise a selected portion of an image requires the use of selection tools and layers, and Photoshop is the most available way to do this.

    I suspect there are Gimp users, or Corel users, or maybe other photo editors that have layers and masking ability that can do it, but I do not use them, and cannot really answer your question.

    I would like to add that Topaz DeNoise may be pretty good also. I have been playing with Topaz Adjust ( which uses DeNoise ) and Topaz Simplify recently and find I like them a great deal.

    This self portrait was done with Topaz software

    518820307_uCu32-S.jpg

    This image was run through Topaz Adjust and Topaz simplify

    505443434_Wmgq3-S.jpg

    Hi Pathfinder,
    Thanks once again for your kind help. I will be looking at the different software you have advised as I must admit I had never heard of any of them. Here are a few of the shots I am referring to with noise in the back ground.
    Regards
    Bob
    1.
    537993999_geAP2-L.jpg
    2.
    537993895_wDrEN-L.jpg
    3.
    537993836_7aSbP-L.jpg
    4.
    537993944_Sp5Md-L.jpg
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    pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,699 moderator
    edited May 16, 2009
    Cool shots of neat windmills.

    I can see why you are concerned about noise in the grey clouds. I doubt the noise in the greenery is an issue.

    I would create a new layer with CTRL-J and select the sky on the upper layer with the Quick Select tool which you and I have discussed previously. I would then run the selected sky through my NoiseWare plug in.

    If I did not have NoiseWare, I might convert the image to the LAB colorspace, and run the Reduce Noise Filter on the L channel only. I suspect in this image, that will work rather well. If you still have noise in the sky, you could also run the a and b channel through the Reduce Noise filter as well. That should take care of the noise. Convert back to RGB and you are done.
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
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    canon400dcanon400d Banned Posts: 2,826 Major grins
    edited May 16, 2009
    pathfinder wrote:
    Cool shots of neat windmills.

    I can see why you are concerned about noise in the grey clouds. I doubt the noise in the greenery is an issue.

    I would create a new layer with CTRL-J and select the sky on the upper layer with the Quick Select tool which you and I have discussed previously. I would then run the selected sky through my NoiseWare plug in.

    If I did not have NoiseWare, I might convert the image to the LAB colorspace, and run the Reduce Noise Filter on the L channel only. I suspect in this image, that will work rather well. If you still have noise in the sky, you could also run the a and b channel through the Reduce Noise filter as well. That should take care fo the noise. Convert back to RGB and you are done.

    Great Pathfinder I will certainly create a new layer as I am now quite familiar with the layers etc. Thanks to all your easy instructions I don't think I would be where I am today. I note above you say, "I would then run the selected sky through my NoiseWare plug in" I find that the noise reduction in CS3 and 4 are not very good. So am I right in saying that I should go ahead and purchase the Noise Ware plug in? Because I can really see there is a difference when I used the Noise Ninja.
    By the way thanks again for all your kind help as you know I really appreciate all your advice.
    Regards
    Bob
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    pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,699 moderator
    edited May 16, 2009
    Try the free version and see if it will work for you before you commit your pounds

    I bought the Pro version I liked it so wellthumb.gif
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
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    gmitchel850gmitchel850 Registered Users Posts: 100 Major grins
    edited May 16, 2009
    I have comprehensive reviews of a few noise reduction software packages with more on the way.

    http://www.thelightsright.com/NoiseNinja2
    http://www.thelightsright.com/NikDfine2
    http://www.thelightsright.com/Noiseware4

    I recommend that you apply noise reduction on a layer and apply a surface mask to keep it away from edges. That will reduce softening.

    http://www.thelightsright.com/UsingSurfaceMask

    I have both actions and scripts that can reate them for you.

    http://www.thelightsright.com/tlrprofessionalmasktoolkit
    http://www.thelightsright.com/tlredgeandsurfacemasks

    And a video tutorial to show you how to use the surface masks.

    http://www.thelightsright.com/UsingTLRMaskTools

    Cheers,

    Mitch
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    canon400dcanon400d Banned Posts: 2,826 Major grins
    edited May 17, 2009
    pathfinder wrote:
    Try the free version and see if it will work for you before you commit your pounds

    I bought the Pro version I liked it so wellthumb.gif

    Hi Pathfinder,
    I tried the Lab colour and ran noise reduction through it and I really did find a difference. I also tried it again running A and B channels through it but I found it took away the sharpness too much on the turbines. I am in the process of downloading the trial version of the Pro of Noise Ware in view of what you have saidthumb.gif
    Regards
    Bob
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    pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,699 moderator
    edited May 17, 2009
    Be sure and post your results, and how easy they were to get, as well, Bob!
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
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    canon400dcanon400d Banned Posts: 2,826 Major grins
    edited May 17, 2009
    gmitchel850 wrote:
    I have comprehensive reviews of a few noise reduction software packages with more on the way.

    http://www.thelightsright.com/NoiseNinja2
    http://www.thelightsright.com/NikDfine2
    http://www.thelightsright.com/Noiseware4

    I recommend that you apply noise reduction on a layer and apply a surface mask to keep it away from edges. That will reduce softening.

    http://www.thelightsright.com/UsingSurfaceMask

    I have both actions and scripts that can reate them for you.

    http://www.thelightsright.com/tlrprofessionalmasktoolkit
    http://www.thelightsright.com/tlredgeandsurfacemasks

    And a video tutorial to show you how to use the surface masks.

    http://www.thelightsright.com/UsingTLRMaskTools

    Cheers,

    Mitch

    Hi Mitch,
    Thanks ever so much for sending me the links which I found very interesting indeed. However, can you please tell me how I go about downloading the TLR software for installing onto my CS4 so I can try out some of the surface masks as I do find the images are quite softened when trying to get rid of noise. I have read the PDF file on Noise Ware that Pathfinder told me about and I see there are sliders to deal with this softening problem of images.
    Regards
    Bob
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    gmitchel850gmitchel850 Registered Users Posts: 100 Major grins
    edited May 19, 2009
    canon400d wrote:
    Hi Mitch,
    Thanks ever so much for sending me the links which I found very interesting indeed. However, can you please tell me how I go about downloading the TLR software for installing onto my CS4 so I can try out some of the surface masks as I do find the images are quite softened when trying to get rid of noise. I have read the PDF file on Noise Ware that Pathfinder told me about and I see there are sliders to deal with this softening problem of images.
    Regards
    Bob

    Those sliders in Noiseware are helpful but less effective than a surface mask.

    The pages on my sites have links to the tools. All of the tools are free. Just click the link and the download should begin. The are .ZIP files.

    There are actions and a script available for making edge and surface masks. The script is more sophisticated. It can make edge masks, surface masks, tone-based masks, color-based masks, etc.

    The link to the script is here
    http://www.thelightsright.com/tlrprofessionalmasktoolkit

    If you prefer actions, the action set is here
    http://www.thelightsright.com/tlredgeandsurfacemasks

    These create masks as alpha channels.
    1. So, to use them, you will need to create a pixel-based layer. Easiest is a Stamp Visible layer with Alt+Ctrl+Shift+N+E (Opt+Cmd+Shift+N+E).
    2. Add the surface mask as a Reveal Selection layer mask.
    3. Then apply noise reduction.
    I have a video that describes how to use the mask tools:

    http://www.thelightsright.com/UsingTLRMaskTools

    Also, a tip on refining masks. Also helpful for noise reduction with a surface mask.

    http://www.thelightsright.com/AdjustableMaskshttp://www.thelightsright.com/AdjustableMasks

    The softening comes from too much noise reduction. It takes experience with the tools.

    BTW, since you're using Noiseware, you might want to read my comprehensive review. It has tips.

    http://www.thelightsright.com/Noiseware4


    I hope these resources help.

    Mitch
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    canon400dcanon400d Banned Posts: 2,826 Major grins
    edited May 21, 2009
    gmitchel850 wrote:
    Those sliders in Noiseware are helpful but less effective than a surface mask.

    The pages on my sites have links to the tools. All of the tools are free. Just click the link and the download should begin. The are .ZIP files.

    There are actions and a script available for making edge and surface masks. The script is more sophisticated. It can make edge masks, surface masks, tone-based masks, color-based masks, etc.

    The link to the script is here
    http://www.thelightsright.com/tlrprofessionalmasktoolkit

    If you prefer actions, the action set is here
    http://www.thelightsright.com/tlredgeandsurfacemasks

    These create masks as alpha channels.
    1. So, to use them, you will need to create a pixel-based layer. Easiest is a Stamp Visible layer with Alt+Ctrl+Shift+N+E (Opt+Cmd+Shift+N+E).
    2. Add the surface mask as a Reveal Selection layer mask.
    3. Then apply noise reduction.
    I have a video that describes how to use the mask tools:

    http://www.thelightsright.com/UsingTLRMaskTools

    Also, a tip on refining masks. Also helpful for noise reduction with a surface mask.

    http://www.thelightsright.com/AdjustableMaskshttp://www.thelightsright.com/AdjustableMasks

    The softening comes from too much noise reduction. It takes experience with the tools.

    BTW, since you're using Noiseware, you might want to read my comprehensive review. It has tips.

    http://www.thelightsright.com/Noiseware4


    I hope these resources help.

    Mitch

    Thanks ever so much Mich I will certainly work my way through the links you have sent me and I will report again when I have hopefully achieved my aim.
    Regards
    Bob
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    canon400dcanon400d Banned Posts: 2,826 Major grins
    edited May 21, 2009
    canon400d wrote:
    Thanks ever so much Mich I will certainly work my way through the links you have sent me and I will report again when I have hopefully achieved my aim.
    Regards
    Bob

    Hi Mich, I have came upon my first hurdle. When I downloaded the link for the TLR mask toolkit, and when I opened CS4 I received a Script Alert dialogue which said " An unexpected JavaScript error in check assumptions - Message = No such element" Whatever this means? If you can assist I would appreciate it. I also downloaded the URL for TLP Edge and Surface Masks and when CS4 opened can you please tell me where to find them in CS4 as I looked through all the lists but could find no reference to TLP Edge and Surface Masks. In the meantime I will continue to look at the remainder of the links.
    Regards
    Bob
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    gmitchel850gmitchel850 Registered Users Posts: 100 Major grins
    edited May 25, 2009
    canon400d wrote:
    Hi Mich, I have came upon my first hurdle. When I downloaded the link for the TLR mask toolkit, and when I opened CS4 I received a Script Alert dialogue which said " An unexpected JavaScript error in check assumptions - Message = No such element" Whatever this means? If you can assist I would appreciate it. I also downloaded the URL for TLP Edge and Surface Masks and when CS4 opened can you please tell me where to find them in CS4 as I looked through all the lists but could find no reference to TLP Edge and Surface Masks. In the meantime I will continue to look at the remainder of the links.
    Regards
    Bob


    What OS are you using? Are you running the Javascript outside of Photoshop?!

    The script should provide an indication of the assumption that's being violated. It requires an image with a Background layer. It cannot be bitmap, duotone, multichannel, or indexed color. A layer must be active and cannot itself be a layer group.

    The actions need to be loaded into Photoshop. That's donefrom the Actions palette menu.

    I have six videos on action basics. One of them explains how to load actions.

    Mitch
  • Options
    canon400dcanon400d Banned Posts: 2,826 Major grins
    edited May 27, 2009
    gmitchel850 wrote:
    What OS are you using? Are you running the Javascript outside of Photoshop?!

    The script should provide an indication of the assumption that's being violated. It requires an image with a Background layer. It cannot be bitmap, duotone, multichannel, or indexed color. A layer must be active and cannot itself be a layer group.

    The actions need to be loaded into Photoshop. That's donefrom the Actions palette menu.

    I have six videos on action basics. One of them explains how to load actions.

    Mitch

    Hi Mitch and I apologise for the late reply. Yes I do run Java outside of Photoshop. I am quite sure if I could get this downloaded onto my CS4 I would probably be able to succeed. However, to be honest I do not know how to go about downloading it into CS4. I am sorry and really apologise for my ignorance. I have had to learn from scratch and believe me it has not been easy but I have enjoyed the challenge.
    Regards
    Bob
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