Pricing for Dance Recital help

AspectArtsAspectArts Big grinsPosts: 61Registered Users Big grins
edited July 2, 2009 in Mind Your Own Business
I have been asked to photograph an upcoming dance recital. I will be taking the photos during the dress rehearsal, and then setting up a table with prints for sale during each of the 3 performances.

This is a whole new avenue of business for me. Does anyone have advice on pricing of the prints, what to offer (for example, just 4x6 on the table, larger sizes available by order)? Is there some sort of industry standard for these events?

Any help would be GREATLY appreciated.

Thanks so much,

Lisa
Lisa

my site: www.aspectartsphoto.com
my gear: nikon D700, 70-200 mm 2.8, 24-70 mm 2.8, 50 mm 1.4, SB600, AB800

Comments

  • Art ScottArt Scott Have PASSPORT will TRAVEL Posts: 8,957Registered Users Major grins
    edited June 2, 2009
    I try not to offer anything smaller than 8x10 for any of my prints for portraits, weddings, etc.....it just isn't worth it to me......I start 8x10's at $25-30.......

    Are your going to be set up to print on demand at the performaces? If so ...start with 8x10 and offer larger sizes to be delivered in 2 weeks or 3 or 4 weeks..........depending on your location has a lot to do with what you charge....your area might only bear 12-15$ per 8x 10......

    Industry standard.....charge as much as the economy or clients can bare.
    "Genuine Fractals was, is and will always be the best solution for enlarging digital photos." ....Vincent Versace ... ... COPYRIGHT YOUR WORK ONLINE ... ... My Website

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  • AspectArtsAspectArts Big grins Posts: 61Registered Users Big grins
    edited June 3, 2009
    Thanks for the reply, Art Scott, you gave some sound advice.

    Well, I'm in a small northern BC town, and maybe it's stereotypical to say it, but I don't think people here for the most part don't understand the value of a great photo. I'm not just hiking up my prices from the print cost, there's lots more involved than that. I find that to be my biggest obstacle when it comes to charging what I'm worth (but I think that's a whole nother thread lol).

    I'm not set up to print on demand, which is part of my quandry. I will definitely have order forms ready so people can order larger sizes of prints. I don't want to have tons of prints left over, either, and, well, there's so many 'what if's' involved. lol.
    Lisa

    my site: www.aspectartsphoto.com
    my gear: nikon D700, 70-200 mm 2.8, 24-70 mm 2.8, 50 mm 1.4, SB600, AB800
  • SamSam San Jose CA Posts: 7,417Registered Users Major grins
    edited June 3, 2009
    Here are a few of my thoughts.

    How about posting them to your SmugMug account where they they can be purchased on line.

    Have one or more laptops at your table where people can look at the images.

    Set up your standard pricing for SmugMug, then at the event have order forms and offer a discount / package pricing / etc to provide an incentive to purchase now rather than later.

    The last but I think very important. Have a half dozen or so of your best images printed up large, (16X24 / 20X30) and mounted on gator / foam / sintra on display.

    Wow them with the quality and impact of your work.

    As for the prices...............you need to set those based on your needs, and your market.

    You mentioned some reluctance in your area of people having an appreciation for photography and questioning your prices.

    You of course need to answer this in your own way, but one way could be something like this.........Ok you have $2.00 and your Costco membership, now all you need is $10,000 to $20,000 Worth of camera gear, $2000.00 TO $5000.00 worth of computer gear and software programs, several years of study and practice, a little talent, the time and effort to be at the recital, take hundreds to thousands of photos, process them and yep you now can get that $2.00 print!

    Sam
  • Cygnus StudiosCygnus Studios Commercial Photographer San Francisco's North BayPosts: 1,833Registered Users Major grins
    edited June 3, 2009
    Sam wrote:
    The last but I think very important. Have a half dozen or so of your best images printed up large, (16X24 / 20X30) and mounted on gator / foam / sintra on display.

    Superb advice. There is a huge difference between seeing an image online vs in hand.
    I usually take a couple of samples of different printers also. A lot of people believe that Walmart, Costco or whatever cheap alternative is good enough.
    Seeing the difference between a pro lab and the cheaper alternative is really eye opening.
    Steve

    Website | Gear
  • jhelmsjhelms Major grins Posts: 697Registered Users Major grins
    edited June 5, 2009
    Definitely give a deep discount if they order and pay at the event.

    I can't count how many times I've heard people say "wow I really love how these look, since I can order them online I'll do that" and they NEVER (well, very rarely) come back and order them online.
    John in Georgia
    D4 | D800 | D700 | SB's x 14
    "Become a Fan" of my photography on Facebook | Follow me on Twitter
  • squiddysquiddy noob Posts: 161Registered Users Major grins
    edited June 5, 2009
    I was taking photos for a HS band banquet and they wanted us to print there and sell. It didn't turn out well for us because we didn't have the right lighting. The lights in the place where we were sitting was awful and made all the prints look a horrible yellow jaundice color - but taken into normal lighting they were great.

    Seeing and being able to buy up front has a great advantage just make sure you have good lighting for them to view the photos.
  • AspectArtsAspectArts Big grins Posts: 61Registered Users Big grins
    edited June 10, 2009
    Thank you all for the advice. The advice on having a few blown up IS superb. I'm going to do that... thank you. I live far away from any major printers (small town, northern BC) so having comparison samples in 24 hours is impossible. I will be set up in a foyer with lots of natural light so that won't be an issue, but I will remember that in the future (Thanks!) What seems to have worked for this venue in the past is to offer 4x6 prints for sale on the table, with order forms available for larger print sizes. Having a "deal" if they order and print there is also great advice... I'll work that into my pricing.

    Thanks so much everyone for the helpful advice. I have a few days yet (and my internet is back up and running yay) so if you have any other experience and wisdom to add, don't hesitate. :)wings.gif

    Thanks again,

    Lisa
    Lisa

    my site: www.aspectartsphoto.com
    my gear: nikon D700, 70-200 mm 2.8, 24-70 mm 2.8, 50 mm 1.4, SB600, AB800
  • JC ImageryJC Imagery Big grins Posts: 32Registered Users Big grins
    edited June 18, 2009
    I'm curious to know how it went.
    Photographing Life! http://jcimagery.net
  • msfmsf Major grins Posts: 229Registered Users Major grins
    edited June 22, 2009
    JC Imagery wrote:
    I'm curious to know how it went.

    Same here, how many pictures did you take? :) How were the sales?

    I took roughly 2000 files at the dance recital I was at a couple of weekends ago. I was away for a week visiting family, so now I get the joy of processing those, plus the portraits before hand. :)

    One lesson I learned, dont share memory cards between camera's, and make sure the camera's date and time match up nicely, if your using more than one camera. After I while I was putting the memory cards with not alot of space left in the camera that I didnt use that much, and putting a fresh large memory card in the camera that I did. but this causes the file number to start up where the other camera left off, so I had a bunch of duplicate file numbers, which makes sorting the pictures harder. : ) I think Ive spent 5 hours just going through the images, weeding out the ones that I dont like, and putting them into folders by performance. I was planning on sorting them by kid, but that would be way to much work I think.

    I have been trying to think of ways to get the parents to buy as much as possible, put prints could get rather expensive for them. I was thinking of offering a proof book for these, I dont normally offer those since im concerned the images can be scanned and printed to what they want.
  • Art ScottArt Scott Have PASSPORT will TRAVEL Posts: 8,957Registered Users Major grins
    edited June 22, 2009
    msf wrote:
    Same here, how many pictures did you take? :) How were the sales?


    One lesson I learned, dont share memory cards between camera's, and make sure the camera's date and time match up nicely, if your using more than one camera. After I while I was putting the memory cards with not alot of space left in the camera that I didnt use that much, and putting a fresh large memory card in the camera that I did. but this causes the file number to start up where the other camera left off, so I had a bunch of duplicate file numbers, which makes sorting the pictures harder. : )
    AAAAAAMEN!!! i have 6 cards dedicated to each of my 2 DSLR's.............they are also numbered to keep me straight..............

    I was thinking of offering a proof book for these, I dont normally offer those since im concerned the images can be scanned and printed to what they want.
    Have you thought of using someone like Blurb Books for proof books of this type????


    i am also curious as to how well you did.
    "Genuine Fractals was, is and will always be the best solution for enlarging digital photos." ....Vincent Versace ... ... COPYRIGHT YOUR WORK ONLINE ... ... My Website

    A ZENFOLIO 10% Discount Coupon CODE - A8K-Q2K-VPG
  • msfmsf Major grins Posts: 229Registered Users Major grins
    edited June 22, 2009
    I was planning on using whcc proofing system and have the sheets bounded. I can add texture to each print for something like 9 cents, and that does make the scan a bit less quality. Im just trying to figure out the pricing. want to charge enough to make it worth while, but not to much so people will decide to stick with the pictures they got, probably blurry. : )
  • msfmsf Major grins Posts: 229Registered Users Major grins
    edited June 22, 2009
    Hmm, thought I would ask here before I googled.

    Does anyone have any recommendations for free software that can rename files? I use to have a program I made in VB to do this, but it would only do jpgs, at the time I didnt foresee the need to do other file types like raw.

    since more than half the files I took share file names with one other file, I need to create custom file names for them, and I dont really want to do 1800 files by hand. :)
  • AspectArtsAspectArts Big grins Posts: 61Registered Users Big grins
    edited June 29, 2009
    The recital went better than I expected. My sales were totally worth the hectic weekend. My profit was over $800, not including the CD of every proof the owner wants. {Which is another question... see next post.}

    The biggest lesson I learned was to print more "single" shots and less group shots. With the exception of one senior, the whole show was group numbers, and being not a dance mom myself, I didn't realize how many moms of the older girls would want pics of just their daughter. In hindsight, of course, it makes perfect sense. lol

    Having the laptop running a slideshow of my prints was a real crowd attraction, and I had lots of "Ooh, is THAT print on the table?" questions.

    I did up an album with the prints in numerical order so people could flip through it, which saved my bacon, because I had 200 prints, and I had to stack multiple poses by what dance they were in. I might add more prints to the album, just of singles, and ask the owner to send an email to everyone telling them there are more prints available online. I took over 1000 shots, and with the D700, way too many of them were good. haha. I was choosing on the fly which ones to print, since I had less than a day to get them chosen and printed. Good thing I didn't have to post process at all.

    I would totally do that again.
    Lisa

    my site: www.aspectartsphoto.com
    my gear: nikon D700, 70-200 mm 2.8, 24-70 mm 2.8, 50 mm 1.4, SB600, AB800
  • AspectArtsAspectArts Big grins Posts: 61Registered Users Big grins
    edited June 29, 2009
    About the question above... the owner of the dance club has asked for a disc with all the photos on it. If I was to have sold her a 4x6 print of each photo it would have been about $500. What do I charge for a disc with full resolution files on it??? She is planning to use them on her website, as well as for promotional material. I'm in a small town, and I feel I'm "young" enough in my career that the exposure is of value to me as much as the great photos are of value to her.
    I just don't know...

    What would you charge?
    Lisa

    my site: www.aspectartsphoto.com
    my gear: nikon D700, 70-200 mm 2.8, 24-70 mm 2.8, 50 mm 1.4, SB600, AB800
  • msfmsf Major grins Posts: 229Registered Users Major grins
    edited June 30, 2009
    AspectArts wrote:
    The recital went better than I expected. My sales were totally worth the hectic weekend. My profit was over $800, not including the CD of every proof the owner wants. {Which is another question... see next post.}

    The biggest lesson I learned was to print more "single" shots and less group shots. With the exception of one senior, the whole show was group numbers, and being not a dance mom myself, I didn't realize how many moms of the older girls would want pics of just their daughter. In hindsight, of course, it makes perfect sense. lol

    Having the laptop running a slideshow of my prints was a real crowd attraction, and I had lots of "Ooh, is THAT print on the table?" questions.

    I did up an album with the prints in numerical order so people could flip through it, which saved my bacon, because I had 200 prints, and I had to stack multiple poses by what dance they were in. I might add more prints to the album, just of singles, and ask the owner to send an email to everyone telling them there are more prints available online. I took over 1000 shots, and with the D700, way too many of them were good. haha. I was choosing on the fly which ones to print, since I had less than a day to get them chosen and printed. Good thing I didn't have to post process at all.

    I would totally do that again.

    $800 is pretty good. : ) I havent seen a penny yet. But I was away for a week after the recital, and I didnt really get a chance to process the images while I was away, photoshop wasnt co-operating with me and the install disks were at home.

    I have made up brochures with information on proof books and printed books for the parents to look at. I really hope the prices are in the range the parents are happy with, and that they wil want to place some pretty nice orders. : ) It has been 2 weeks now, so hopefully I havent missed my chance at this. I made up a proof book with custom mattes I did in photoshop, and it should arrive tomorrow. Im going to drop it by the studio for parents to see, and for each to get a brochure.

    I didnt have a chance to show any pictures at the recital since it was a 1 day showing. Hindsight, I could have shown pictures on a laptop after the recital, but I woudlnt have had much of a chance to go through the pictures and remove the out of focus ones, and any that could be considered immodest. Out of 2150 or so pictures, 300 were not up to my standard one way or another.
    AspectArts wrote:
    About the question above... the owner of the dance club has asked for a disc with all the photos on it. If I was to have sold her a 4x6 print of each photo it would have been about $500. What do I charge for a disc with full resolution files on it??? She is planning to use them on her website, as well as for promotional material. I'm in a small town, and I feel I'm "young" enough in my career that the exposure is of value to me as much as the great photos are of value to her.
    I just don't know...

    What would you charge?

    How much did you charge for the 4x6's? Are you offering a cd to the parents? How much are you asking for, for those? If you dont mind me asking. If you do, then please ignore. :D

    For the studio owner, you may want to consider offering a cd with websize versions of selected files for their website. They probably dont need 1000 images for a website. For promotional use, perhaps get the owner to select a few that they really like, and get a written agreement. dont want to undercut yourself, but you watn to keep them happy so they will invite you next year. :)

    What did you do with the pictures that could be considered "less than modest"? I decided to remove them.

    Did your studio owner pay you to be there? ask for a commision for allowing you to be there? no money requested one way or another?
  • msfmsf Major grins Posts: 229Registered Users Major grins
    edited June 30, 2009
    Oh, and what lenses did you find most useful?

    for the little kids, I prefered the 80mm, I was able to fill the frame, but leave a bit on the sides for movement to make sure I ddint cut off any limbs. 50mm was good for group pictures, but if what you said before, those may nto be in demand.

    for the larger kids, 13-16, 80mm was nice when they were near the back of the stage, but 50 was mor euseful most of the time.

    I wonder if there is a 40-80mm F1.8 or 2.8 lens. :D it would be easier than goign back and forth between 2 camera's, but having the 2 cameras did let me switch camera's while the first camera finished writting to the memory card. May have to invest in faster memory cards. :D

    Where abouts did you stand? I tried to stand right behind the video camera *they hired a videographer*, but some parents were complaining that I was blocking the view, although I wasnt taking up much more space than the video camera. So I tried to go between that, and either side in the seats. The center behind the camera did give me the best shots.

    Just thinking, for my next gig, I should try to get as many pictures during the rehersal as possible, assuming they are in full costume. Theres not usually to many people in the audience so I can stand a few rows back and not block anyone. Then I could show the pictures and prints the next day at the recital. hmm. Plus I could take pictures on the stage side to get some different perspectives.

    Thats assuming theres no portraits to be done the day of the rehersal. Some parents wanted it that day because the kids were already dressed up and had their hair done.

    Im rambling here. sorry. : )
  • SamSam San Jose CA Posts: 7,417Registered Users Major grins
    edited June 30, 2009
    AspectArts wrote:
    About the question above... the owner of the dance club has asked for a disc with all the photos on it. If I was to have sold her a 4x6 print of each photo it would have been about $500. What do I charge for a disc with full resolution files on it??? She is planning to use them on her website, as well as for promotional material. I'm in a small town, and I feel I'm "young" enough in my career that the exposure is of value to me as much as the great photos are of value to her.
    I just don't know...

    What would you charge?

    Lisa,

    Good job!!

    Since I don't know any of the details with regard to the studio I can't offer really specific advice, but I can say don't give them all 1000 shots, and don't give them away for free.

    While you want to establish yourself as a working pro, you can provide discounts, and negotiate other opportunities.

    Perhaps offer a smaller number of images for web and advertising use but not for resale. They probably don't need ALL the images but don't really value digital files very much so they are just asking for all of them them.

    If they wanted say 200 and you priced each file at $20.00 (volumn discount) that might be pretty expensive for a small studio, but you have then established your price. Then you can offer say 5 or 10 of their choice for a more affordable amount but they will still get great images for their use. Why not have them buy 5 or 10 from each event rather than 200 from one event?

    Quote a normal price and then offer a discount if they give you credit and include your contact info. That way they know your regular pricing and see the nice friendly discount your offering.

    Do they need a collage with text? A poster? Become their photogaphic consultant as well as their photographer.

    Sam
  • AspectArtsAspectArts Big grins Posts: 61Registered Users Big grins
    edited June 30, 2009
    msf wrote:
    $800 is pretty good. : ) I havent seen a penny yet. But I was away for a week after the recital, and I didnt really get a chance to process the images while I was away, photoshop wasnt co-operating with me and the install disks were at home.

    I have made up brochures with information on proof books and printed books for the parents to look at. I really hope the prices are in the range the parents are happy with, and that they wil want to place some pretty nice orders. : ) It has been 2 weeks now, so hopefully I havent missed my chance at this. I made up a proof book with custom mattes I did in photoshop, and it should arrive tomorrow. Im going to drop it by the studio for parents to see, and for each to get a brochure.

    I didnt have a chance to show any pictures at the recital since it was a 1 day showing. Hindsight, I could have shown pictures on a laptop after the recital, but I woudlnt have had much of a chance to go through the pictures and remove the out of focus ones, and any that could be considered immodest. Out of 2150 or so pictures, 300 were not up to my standard one way or another.



    How much did you charge for the 4x6's? Are you offering a cd to the parents? How much are you asking for, for those? If you dont mind me asking. If you do, then please ignore. :D

    For the studio owner, you may want to consider offering a cd with websize versions of selected files for their website. They probably dont need 1000 images for a website. For promotional use, perhaps get the owner to select a few that they really like, and get a written agreement. dont want to undercut yourself, but you watn to keep them happy so they will invite you next year. :)

    What did you do with the pictures that could be considered "less than modest"? I decided to remove them.

    Did your studio owner pay you to be there? ask for a commision for allowing you to be there? no money requested one way or another?

    Phew, that's a lot of questions! ;) The owner came up to me and said, "Oh, I'll take one of each, just burn me a disc. Let me know how much that will be..." Which is super. lol. My prices for 4x6 were $2.50 each. I know that's not tons, but I got a bulk rate at the local photo printer, which offset my costs a fair bit. And, I heard a lot from my target market about how expensive previous photogs were, before they knew I was the photog for this show.

    I took the photos the night before the recital, at the dress rehearsal. Perfect, I could go where ever I wanted to and I wasn't in anyone's way. I worked until the wee hours of the morning choosing shots for print. Any that were "immodest" I deleted.

    I was there totally as my own entity, which was nice and hassle free. My costs were my own to cover, and my profit was my own as well.

    I did not offer CD's to parents, only prints. The CD would be solely for the owner.
    Lisa

    my site: www.aspectartsphoto.com
    my gear: nikon D700, 70-200 mm 2.8, 24-70 mm 2.8, 50 mm 1.4, SB600, AB800
  • AspectArtsAspectArts Big grins Posts: 61Registered Users Big grins
    edited June 30, 2009
    Sam wrote:
    Lisa,

    Good job!!

    Since I don't know any of the details with regard to the studio I can't offer really specific advice, but I can say don't give them all 1000 shots, and don't give them away for free.

    While you want to establish yourself as a working pro, you can provide discounts, and negotiate other opportunities.

    Perhaps offer a smaller number of images for web and advertising use but not for resale. They probably don't need ALL the images but don't really value digital files very much so they are just asking for all of them them.

    If they wanted say 200 and you priced each file at $20.00 (volumn discount) that might be pretty expensive for a small studio, but you have then established your price. Then you can offer say 5 or 10 of their choice for a more affordable amount but they will still get great images for their use. Why not have them buy 5 or 10 from each event rather than 200 from one event?

    Quote a normal price and then offer a discount if they give you credit and include your contact info. That way they know your regular pricing and see the nice friendly discount your offering.

    Do they need a collage with text? A poster? Become their photogaphic consultant as well as their photographer.

    Sam

    GREAT ADVICE, thanks so much! The disc would 'only' have the 200 prints I did up for sale at the venue.

    I will definitely be asking for credit and contact info to be added to their website, that's superb advertising. I like the discount idea in exchange for that.

    I find the hardest part of this business for me is charging what I'm worth. I have been reading an awesome article found here on setting your price. A very worthwhile read for anyone who's in my shoes. lol. I have been too busy taking and editing pics to dig too deep into the article, but it's printed and ready to go.
    Lisa

    my site: www.aspectartsphoto.com
    my gear: nikon D700, 70-200 mm 2.8, 24-70 mm 2.8, 50 mm 1.4, SB600, AB800
  • SamSam San Jose CA Posts: 7,417Registered Users Major grins
    edited June 30, 2009
    Lisa,

    Thanks for answering the questions put to you. Your answer did generate a question or two from me. If you only charged $2.50 for a 4X6 how the heck did you make $800.00 profit?

    If I use $0.20 as your cost for a 4X6 you would have had to sell 350 to get near a gross profit of $800.00. Then of course you would need to deduct gas, equipment depreciation and any other costs.

    You said you printed them up and brought them to the dance to sell. How many did you print up and take? How many did you sell, and how many are left?

    As a final thought................NOTE: This is not a criticism!!

    Since it's the same amount , (at least for me) of post processing to prepare a 4X6 or an 16X20 I can't afford the time to process and and sell these for only $2.50.

    I think a good quality event type of image printed at 8X10 would normally sell for between $12.00 and $50.00. Lots of variables here. If your in a small depressed market and feel you need to keep your costs down you might look at your pricing this way. If you set your price for an 8X10 at $12.00, which I think is a very good perceived value, then charge say between $6.00 to $8.00 for the 4X6. Even if your volume goes down will it drop 40%? Same income for half the work and your keeping your prices up at least a little.

    Just a thought.

    Sam
  • MT StringerMT Stringer Major grins Posts: 225Registered Users Major grins
    edited July 1, 2009
    I think a good quality event type of image printed at 8X10 would normally sell for between $12.00 and $50.00.
    Just a tid bit of info.

    Last year I went to a local fair and rodeo. There was a photographer in the pen with the judges as the animals were brought in for judging in the different events. He had 4 Alien Bees mounted up fairly high on stands attached to each corner of the ring. An assistant was manning a table adjacent to the pen with PC and printer. They were printing on site and selling the 8X10 for $25 ea.
    Mike
    Please visit my website: www.mtstringer.smugmug.com
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  • AspectArtsAspectArts Big grins Posts: 61Registered Users Big grins
    edited July 2, 2009
    Thank you for all the input here. I knew I would get in trouble for my prices. lol. That's okay, I can take it.

    I do live in a small, rural northern BC community, and I know from experience that I just can't charge what photogs in larger centers can. I do think I should have charged more, but it is what it is. :) That said, my processing time was very minimal.. I had to run noise ninja on some of them, but that's it. My camera was a STAR!

    I have quite a few prints left over, but I sold tons, yes enough to profit $800. (It helped that I only paid 0.10 a print. It didn't help that there are only 2 places a person can get prints done in 20 hours, and everyone knows what they cost to print. People don't understand how far beyond just snapping the photo the process goes. I did not factor in depreciation (don't actually know how to do that), but the event was 2 km from my house, so gas wasn't an issue, and I deducted my other costs (like childcare) from the net.

    I battle with charging what I'm worth, I'll be honest about that. I was a very enthusiastic amateur for years before stepping into the pro ring 2 years ago, and I'm having a hard time putting a price tag on something I love to do. Does that make sense? My family is moving in the fall, and I think being in a community that hasn't known me since birth will make it easier on my end to charge enough.

    After it all was said and done, though, this was my first venture into this kind of event, and I got more than I'd hoped out of it.

    One question from a few posts back about the lens I used most. I switched between the 24-70 and the 70-200 (both 2.8), depending on the size of the group. I wouldn't have wanted to do it without either lens.
    Lisa

    my site: www.aspectartsphoto.com
    my gear: nikon D700, 70-200 mm 2.8, 24-70 mm 2.8, 50 mm 1.4, SB600, AB800
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