They want to use my pics on their site

jpc

Hi all,

I took some shots of an air show over the weekend, and the show organizers have asked for permission to use some of them on their site. Here's how their request was worded:

"Can you send us a disc with some of the better shots with permission to use them for next year's webpage that will show prior airshow shots ?? I promise they will not be used for commercial purposes and will have the proper copyrights attached."

I'm absolutely thrilled that some of my photos could get a little recognition, but I want to protect my work. I don't want to charge them a fee but I think that I should clarify what the "proper copyrights" will be. My images are watermarked, so I could certainly require that they they not be cropped, but are there any other terms I should mention?

Thanks in advance for your help. This is brand new territory for me.

JP

air show pics

Art Scott

How are your pics watermarked (post one to let us see)....I only use copyrighting in my exif data....no watermarks except on website but all are signed just like any artist sign their work......I usually sign mine 1.5" from bottom and from side of photo that way if they are matted it won't cover the signature.....I make it big enuff to beseen but notreal intrusive.
It would not hurt to ask for special privileges next year for the show ...........in writing..........

Nikolai

I agree with Art.. Make a reasonable watermark, request no cropping, a byline credit next to the picture with a link to your website (or whatever resource you want to be linked), prominent position for the enxt year show (they *always* have some special places for special people, be it VIP section, roof access, or whatever)...
Good luck!

jpc

Here's what my watermark looks like:

johng

In the end, you have to do what you think is right but I think you do yourself a disservice by not charging. If you walked up to the gate and asked for free admission and promised to 'give them credit' do you think they'd let you in? I don't blame them for asking to get something for free, but that doesn't mean you should give them a free good/service. Better yet, ask them if they'll throw in a ride with blue angels / thunderbids or whoever else is the premier act for next year - media members often get the priviledge. If you're going to provide them with media services you should at least get the perks if not the paycheck.

Nikolai

johng wrote:

In the end, you have to do what you think is right but I think you do yourself a disservice by not charging. If you walked up to the gate and asked for free admission and promised to 'give them credit' do you think they'd let you in? I don't blame them for asking to get something for free, but that doesn't mean you should give them a free good/service. Better yet, ask them if they'll throw in a ride with blue angels / thunderbids or whoever else is the premier act for next year - media members often get the priviledge. If you're going to provide them with media services you should at least get the perks if not the paycheck.

John, while I too love getting paid, the shows/public events are hard to corner due to the fact that everybody and thier cat have a decent camera these days, and large ones receive next-to-free pro coverage from the publications.
When you starting out I think it's OK to give ~some~ stuff away for free to get your foot into the door.

My own example: I have been shooting local reenactments for a few years already.
First year was dud (well, I recovered my expenses from random sales), but they put my name and my images on their web site.
Second year was about the same, but they knew me already. Plus they used my image for their internal awards, which gave me some "street cred".
Third year I got a press pass, plus I got to shoot some major "generals" personally.
Fourth year they issued me the press pass, shared the inside info about the what goes on where and hooked me up with every honcho who had something to do with the event. They also provided an exclusive spot to shoot from. After the show they also got me published in two national magazines (the real paper ones, not web-only), including one on the front cover...
This year (it's a Fall event) they have already solicited my services for some high-level peeps portraiture and promised some extra perks. I'm on their internal email list, and such...

All I'm saying is: you gotta give something to get something... Shows are not exactly high-margin entrprises, so I think it's OK to be generous - at least if you love what you doing...

Cygnus Studios

with Nikolai. Getting that first foot in the door for general public events is tough.
If I were in this situation, I would grant limited use rights to the image and ask for a press pass for the next event.
Most of these air shows have sponsor dinners or special back scene activities. A great place to network your services.

If shooting events is your end of the photography business, certainly you do not give away your effort, but breaking into new areas often require a little back scratching.
Push for a little something more than just credit for the images. Don't overprice yourself out of the opportunity though.

jpc

Thanks for all the great advice. There were lots of "pro" photographers at this show, which is why I think that it might be a deal-breaker if I ask for cash. This is an opportunity for me to get my foot in the door, so I like the idea of granting limited-use rights to maybe a dozen photos. I'm also thinking of limiting the resolution to 600 pixels (like I posted, here) since they won't be right-click protected on their site, like they are on Smugmug. I know that nothing prevents a screen capture, so at least they be relatively small.

How exactly do I go about granting limited-use rights? Would an email suffice, or do I need a contract? I don't want to blow this by making it any more complicated than it has to be.

Also, if there's a thumbnail page with links to the larger images, should I specify that byline credits be included with each of the full-res photos, or just as a "title" on the thumbnails page? Maybe someone has a link to a good example?

Thanks again!

Cygnus Studios

You really should have a lawyer draw up a few contracts for you. Here are some of the things that should be included.


____________ (photographer) grants the following rights to ____________ (client name) for a period of ___________.
Client is free to to copy, distribute and transmit the work with the following conditions.
All work must be attributed in the manner specified by the photographer (watermark, signature, website).
Images may not be used for commercial purposes. Images may not be altered in any way without prior written permission.
Photographer retains all copyrights, usage rights and publicity rights.

MichaelKirk

Think

jpc wrote:

Thanks for all the great advice. There were lots of "pro" photographers at this show, which is why I think that it might be a deal-breaker if I ask for cash. This is an opportunity for me to get my foot in the door,

The only "foot in the door" this will give you is the opportunity to give away your photos for free every year. Once you think you deserve to charge for the images, they will move on to someone else. And anyone else that they may recommend use you will also want the photos for free......because that is what your photos/time are worth (you did this to yourself). You'll have to lay in the bed you made.

At minimal charge at least a minor fee. Like one other said above - think they would let you in for free if you told them you would tell a few friends to come on over?

These threads pop up like a dime a dozen - all the newer self called "semi-Pros" will say it's ok - you need to get your foot in the door somehow. All the Pro's (term used lightly) would like to meet you in a back alley sometime.

Michael

johng

OK, last post got lost so I'll try again.

I think the real answer is somewhere in between Michael and Steve's advice.

You say you're hoping to get your foot in the door.

The door to what? Do you want to make money selling photos from airshows? Are you hoping to make contacts that will get you some business in the future? What type of business?

Free products aren't always a bad thing. But maybe there's a whole business of airshow photography I'm not familiar with (i.e. where people make money from it) that you want to get into. Or are you hoping to do stock photos? Just trying to understand what door you want a foothold in, so I and others can form an opinion as to whether giving your photos to the organization for free will likely lead to your goal. So, help me understand what's on the other side of the door.

John

Cygnus Studios

MichaelKirk wrote:

The only "foot in the door" this will give you is the opportunity to give away your photos for free every year.

Please explain this logic to me. I hear this story all the time and it just does not add up.
This morning I was over at the local Costco and they were giving away free samples of a new product. I have no reason to believe that because they were giving away the product for free today meant that it will be free tomorrow.
In the real business world, business owners play the "I'll scratch your back if you scratch my back" game each and every day.
Why some choose to believe that the photography business is this new concept of doing business makes no sense.
In what business does the owner not at some point give away a product or service?
The successful business owners know when and more importantly know why to give away their product or service.

The 2 most important rules in any business is getting customers and keeping customers.

Now for some unknown reason, some people choose to pay thousands of dollars for ads, pay thousands of dollars to join business networking groups or chambers of commerce, rather than use a few free images to make these same connections.

In the end, the people that know how, always work for the people who know why.

mercphoto

johng wrote:

You say you're hoping to get your foot in the door.

The door to what? Do you want to make money selling photos from airshows? Are you hoping to make contacts that will get you some business in the future? What type of business?

Exactly. You aren't giving the shots away for free if you are actually getting something you want in return. Do you KNOW that you are getting your foot into some door, or just hoping to? Because nothing will stop them from using some other person's free photos next year and dissing you if they can.

I put up "free" photos in the lobbies of two local businesses recently. They had empty wall space. They cater to my potential clients. But I didn't just put up a "photo", it was a collage with my business name and contact info in really big letters. In other words I put up a free ad, and they got good wall art.

mercphoto

Cygnus Studios wrote:

Please explain this logic to me. I hear this story all the time and it just does not add up.
This morning I was over at the local Costco and they were giving away free samples of a new product. I have no reason to believe that because they were giving away the product for free today meant that it will be free tomorrow.

For one, Costco is selling a consumable. If you will like it you will come back and buy it. And consume it. And hence need to buy it again. The same is not true of photography. For two there are lots of people giving away free photos. In other words, would you still buy this product from CostCo if next week you could get it for free from Target, and the week after from Sears, and the week after that from Wal-Mart....

In other words, not all industries are the same, they don't all work in the same dynamic. Whereas freebies work in one industry does not in any way shape of form mean it will apply to any other industry.

Cygnus Studios

mercphoto wrote:

In other words, not all industries are the same, they don't all work in the same dynamic. Whereas freebies work in one industry does not in any way shape of form mean it will apply to any other industry.

I am a business person who happens to make a darn good living taking photos. I have been involved in other businesses and I do absolutely nothing differently.
Now it certainly could be argued that I am simply the luckiest person in the photography business. Heck, maybe I am.

In an earlier post, I suggested trading his current images for access, pre-event parties, or something similar. I would never suggest simply handing over the images and saying thank you for taking them.
When used properly, those images could be used for future work.

aktse

Adding food for thought (or fuel for the fire).

The latest guest blogger picked by Scott Kelby is sports photog, Mike Olivella and he shares his thoughts on how to break into sports photography.

He basically went from a guy with a P&S to a guy on the sideline and traded his images for my first set of credentials (among other things + hard work).

Right? Wrong? It's a good read...

mercphoto

Cygnus Studios wrote:

In an earlier post, I suggested trading his current images for access, pre-event parties, or something similar. I would never suggest simply handing over the images and saying thank you for taking them.

Which is the same as the advice I gave him -- don't just give them away, make sure you get something in return. Don't hope for future access, etc., know you are getting something in return.

Cygnus Studios

mercphoto wrote:

Which is the same as the advice I gave him -- don't just give them away, make sure you get something in return. Don't hope for future access, etc., know you are getting something in return.

Please don't think that I am arguing. You, MichaelKirk and Johng have all given a lot of great advice, here in this thread and in many others. In the end we all want the original poster to gain in their endeavor.

jpc

Let me start by thanking everyone again for their input. My intention here is to establish a relationship with the event organizers, as well as to gain some publicity for my website. I have proposed that they give me a press pass for next year's show, VIP parking (I had to park over a mile away this year) as well as tickets for my family. In return, they get rights to post 12 lo-res (2-3 Mpix) images on their website for one year. They have agreed, verbally, and I will be writing up a contract over the weekend. The images will retain my watermark and I will be given proper byline credits. If they decide that they would like to do anything else with the images, then I will either refer them to Smugmug, where they can buy downloads, or negotiate for monetary compensation.

I'm really not sure where this will take me, but it's certainly not my intention to just keep giving them free pics every year, under the same terms. But, if I end up selling prints because others have seen my work on their site, then that really doesn't seem too horrible.

And then there's the $10 air show program, full of beautiful glossy pics. I know they pay for those, so why not buy one of mine?

Anyway, the only thing I'm wrestling with now is the resolution of the pics I'm giving them. The sample I posted earlier in this thread is 600 x 400 pix. Is that too big, too small?

Thanks again for all of your advice. I really appreciate it.

JP

Blaker

Nikolai wrote:

When you starting out I think it's OK to give ~some~ stuff away for free to get your foot into the door.

My own example: I have been shooting local reenactments for a few years already.
First year was dud (well, I recovered my expenses from random sales), but they put my name and my images on their web site.
Second year was about the same, but they knew me already. Plus they used my image for their internal awards, which gave me some "street cred".
Third year I got a press pass, plus I got to shoot some major "generals" personally.
Fourth year they issued me the press pass, shared the inside info about the what goes on where and hooked me up with every honcho who had something to do with the event. They also provided an exclusive spot to shoot from. After the show they also got me published in two national magazines (the real paper ones, not web-only), including one on the front cover...
This year (it's a Fall event) they have already solicited my services for some high-level peeps portraiture and promised some extra perks. I'm on their internal email list, and such...

.

Sooooo, 5 years in, are you getting paid yet?

Nikolai

Blaker wrote:

Sooooo, 5 years in, are you getting paid yet?

With these events I was covering my expenses just through the random sales.
However, I expect more "organized sales" this year...

Blaker

Nikolai wrote:

With these events I was covering my expenses just through the random sales.
However, I expect more "organized sales" this year...

So, with 5 years of essentially giving your photos away to these re-enactment outlets, you have not sold any photos for profit?
I would venture to say that this business model of giving photos away in order to make $$ is not exactly working for you....

markjtrickey

I have asked the same question as the gentlemen who started this thread myself. And have received much of the same advice. I'm still new and I do charge very little for my prints and my services and also give away some freebies. The reasons are two fold. One, I'm not as good as some of the people charging more. Two, it does get me some exposure. Whether this will work for me is yet to be seen. But, what I don't understand is the ferocity and sometimes downright animosity some display when claiming "we" are ruining the business for them, or stealing business from them, or somehow lessening the whole profession. If you are "the best" either at your art or your business you will sell more product for a better price. The best parallel I can come up with is painting. Does the guy on the street or warehouse selling god awful painted velvet Elvis's for $20 somehow lessen the art or worth or Rembrandt or Dali. I don't think so. If your work is better you prove it and it will sell for what it's worth.

Sorry for the rant, and this may bring fire down upon me, but it has started touching a nerve with me that the "pros" somehow feel that those of us that do not make our living as full time photographers should ether toe their line or get out the way.

BTW, this is not meant to point fingers at anyone in this thread and probably (is not) relevant to this thread , but I've had too much coffee and just finished reading a scathing thread at sport Shooters.

As for JPC, kudos for getting what seems like a great deal for his photos considering he's just starting out. I need to remember to ask for perks myself next time someone asks me.

Nikolai

Blaker wrote:

So, with 5 years of essentially giving your photos away to these re-enactment outlets, you have not sold any photos for profit?
I would venture to say that this business model of giving photos away in order to make $$ is not exactly working for you....

I wouldn't say that.
The only photo I gave away was the picture I mentioned they used for their awards. Which gave me some invaluable inside info to improve my picture quality (knowing what's going on, having a privileged access, etc.)
Besides, the whole reenactment thing is a purely volunteering movement. I knew in advance it's not weddings or senior portraiture, there are no big bucks there. However, I was still coming out in black every time, regardless.
And since I love the whole thing I intend to do it for the foreseeable future. If nothing else, it gets me a free ad space and gets me published. Not all my ventures are for a high instant profit. I am trying different directions, some may work in the the future, some may not. It's a risk I'm wiling to take - while enjoying the whole thing.

johng

markjtrickey wrote:

But, what I don't understand is the ferocity and sometimes downright animosity some display when claiming "we" are ruining the business for them, or stealing business from them, or somehow lessening the whole profession. If you are "the best" either at your art or your business you will sell more product for a better price. The best parallel I can come up with is painting.

Excellent question - and it deserves an answer. Sports photography is a very rare area where hobbyists routinely are willing to give away their product for free. Someone interested in wedding photography wouldn't dream of it. The ferrocity comes from two directions. First, the journalist. More and more papers, media outlets and 'sports stock agencies' are soliciting and getting free submissions. That leads to less need for paid photographers - who either used to be salaried employees or at least free-lancers paid a certain rate for a gig. If your hobby is fixing cars - are you going to go around and fix cars for someone for free? Extrapolate this model into almost any other field where people make money and you simply won't see people giving away their work for free.

And on the other hand you have people that shoot events and sell to athletes or parents. Action sports photos are something of a luxury item - the Team & Individual shots are the 'need to have' - everyone wants a picture of little Timmy smiling in his soccer uniform. Now, there used to be a huge gulf between what the pro sports shooter could produce and what mom or dad could produce. With the digital age, that pro equipment has really made it to the masses. So the gap was less, but still there. Now with photography forums as they are, people can learn the techniques to make them better sports photographers. Are they as good as the pros? No. But, it's a matter of 'good enough'. When your price is free or something irrelevant like $1 a photo the quality is often 'good enough' as many moms scrapbook - it's less and less parents that are looking for 11x14 action photos to frame and put on the wall.

Speaking for myself I have no issue whatsoever with people just starting out and getting advice for their hobby for personal use. I have no issue with people wanting to do it as a business. But over the last couple years as more and more parents have DSLRs, free photos have been 'good enough' to errode my business.

Beyond that though, it's a model that rarely works. You have to get SOMETHING for it - whether it's exclusive access and family passes as in this case or something else. Or as another poster mentioned - free advertising in a physical store front. The notion of building business by giving away a product for free or too cheaply to everyone (as opposed to package discounts or a couple free photos to a parent to seed sales to the rest of the team) just doesn't work. Look at the equipment that's necessary. Few businesses will survive with a 5-year payback on equipment investment. And within that time you'll certainly have to replace a body. So besides photographers not liking what the practice does to our business it's just often bad business practice. If someone opens a restaurant they don't give away free food for a year so people will come there. It's the difference between a hobby and a business - once you decide to start a business you have to think of it as such. If all you attract are customers willing to take photos for free they'll never pay. So, practice, get better FIRST. Then when your photos are worth paying for, THEN start the business. Use creative marketing but start charging a good rate for your product from the start of the business. You'll never find another businessman that works for free for a year while paying for all their own expenses and equipment.

Blaker

Nikolai wrote:

Besides, the whole reenactment thing is a purely volunteering movement. Not all my ventures are for a high instant profit. I am trying different directions, some may work in the the future, some may not. It's a risk I'm wiling to take - while enjoying the whole thing.

Hobby photography and business photography are two entirely different models.

As a hobbyist, your model of essentially giving away photos just to see yourself in print in a magazine, or to be able to be closer to the re-enactment action the next year does work. You're doing it for fun.

As a business model, by your own account ( going into your 5th year of not making any profit yet still essentially giving away your service/product in hopes of 'getting your foot in the door ") your model does not work. If giving away photos to an organization for 5 years STILL hasn't generated a profit, I think it's safe to say it never will. I mean, how many years do you work for free in the hopes that eventually you might get paid?


The disconnect is that you used that hobbyist model as an example of how to generate business.
Your model is a good example of how to have fun with a hobby- but not such a good example of how to generate income.

Nikolai

Blaker wrote:

Hobby photography and business photography are two entirely different models.

As a hobbyist, your model of essentially giving away photos just to see yourself in print in a magazine, or to be able to be closer to the re-enactment action the next year does work. You're doing it for fun.

As a business model, by your own account ( going into your 5th year of not making any profit yet still essentially giving away your service/product in hopes of 'getting your foot in the door ") your model does not work. If giving away photos to an organization for 5 years STILL hasn't generated a profit, I think it's safe to say it never will. I mean, how many years do you work for free in the hopes that eventually you might get paid?


The disconnect is that you used that hobbyist model as an example of how to generate business.
Your model is a good example of how to have fun with a hobby- but not such a good example of how to generate income.

I wonder what part of "I gave away one image" & "I have been always coming in black" made you think I'm giving away my services for free?

BTW, fwiw, these reenactments I mentioned, they happen ONCE a year. Get a national publication on a fifth shoot is not bad achievement no matter how you look at it. :-)

But maybe we can switch from talking about bad me and start considering your approach? What do you do when you start out?

angevin1

Nikolai wrote:

John, while I too love getting paid, the shows/public events are hard to corner due to the fact that everybody and thier cat have a decent camera these days, and large ones receive next-to-free pro coverage from the publications.
When you starting out I think it's OK to give ~some~ stuff away for free to get your foot into the door.

My own example: I have been shooting local reenactments for a few years already.
First year was dud (well, I recovered my expenses from random sales), but they put my name and my images on their web site.
Second year was about the same, but they knew me already. Plus they used my image for their internal awards, which gave me some "street cred".
Third year I got a press pass, plus I got to shoot some major "generals" personally.
Fourth year they issued me the press pass, shared the inside info about the what goes on where and hooked me up with every honcho who had something to do with the event. They also provided an exclusive spot to shoot from. After the show they also got me published in two national magazines (the real paper ones, not web-only), including one on the front cover...
This year (it's a Fall event) they have already solicited my services for some high-level peeps portraiture and promised some extra perks. I'm on their internal email list, and such...

All I'm saying is: you gotta give something to get something... Shows are not exactly high-margin entrprises, so I think it's OK to be generous - at least if you love what you doing...

I remember when you posted that cover shot . It was quite nice. The potential for conversion of the cover shot or the other shots published is
huge. History and folks reading about is a bit fad-ish. And just like any other fad, it'll come around again. When it does, they'll want great photos to put in those publication/videos, etc.

The demographic determines the potential: perks, cash and how fast a relationship will be formed.

Being generous is a mindset and a way of life for many, many people.

The OP nor Nik gave anything away. When you give something away, it is a gift, and you no longer are owed an outcome.

If you trade your services then there is inherent value in the service and the trade.

Same kinda trade request came to me earlier this year: Local Arts Council wanted to use some photos for their New Website. I handed them over and have since been fortunate enough to reap some jobs for them and from them.

They had an Art Show and Wine tasting event coordinated with thirty other destinations in a 60 mile radius. They featured three artists at their show including me. I was the only person who sold any work out of the three. Why did my work sell, and not theirs? The other two artist did very splendid watercolor and oils. But my art was cheap/affordable...I considered the demographic before ever setting prices.

I actually have to thank SM for my being found by these people. If not for the admonition to tag my photos, they would have never seen them.

cheers,

tom

Blaker

Nikolai wrote:

I wonder what part of "I gave away one image" & "I have been always coming in black" made you think I'm giving away my services for free?

By your own words you stated:
- Blaker:
"Sooooo, 5 years in, are you getting paid yet?"
-Nikolai:
"With these events I was covering my expenses just through the random sales.
However, I expect more "organized sales" this year..."

Just 'covering expenses' is not a business model. The whole point of being in business is to make a profit- and if you are still providing an organization with photos going on 5 years in the hopes that someday they will start to pay you, well, let's just say I think your time would be better spent cultivating other clients! Clients who will pay you what you are worth!

Nikolai:"The only photo I gave away was the picture I mentioned they used for their awards."

So then you got paid market rate by the organization for the website images they used in the first year, the photos of the generals in the 3rd year, and the magazine photos in the 4th year?
And they have offered payment for your work this year?

All I am pointing out is that as a *business* model this does not work. I get that you love being there, and enjoy seeing yourself on their website and in print, and getting the access that makes you feel like a part of the organization- but that makes this more of a *hobbyist* model- and there is nothing wrong with that.
As I said before, my only problem with this model is using it as an example of how to increase *business* ( i.e profitable sales), when really all it does is increase *access* and seeing yourself in print ( for the fun of it).

So I hope you continue to have fun with your re-enactment photography! ( and have something else to pay the bills!)

Nikolai

OK.
Yes it goes without saying that I don't make my living from photography.
I think we can close that subject and return to OP. You think my approach is not good. Can we hear yours?

Cygnus Studios

jpc wrote:

Anyway, the only thing I'm wrestling with now is the resolution of the pics I'm giving them. The sample I posted earlier in this thread is 600 x 400 pix. Is that too big, too small?

Since we kind of hijacked this thread into what works for us vs what works for someone else, I thought that your thread deserved the answers that you have asked.

Congrats on working this out. No matter where it leads, you have accomplished the first steps. That is something to be proud of.

For web photos, 600 to 800 on the long side is plenty big enough.
For their flyers or catalogs I would use photoshop and crop to 4x6. Resolution will be determined by whomever makes the flyer/catalog.
A nice watermark that is easy to read, yet doesn't take away.