Can a casual sports business work?

wadesworld · June 3, 2009

I'm struggling with the idea of selling photos of my child's sports leagues next year. I think with some improvement, I can produce some shots folks would buy. However, I'm a little wary of starting on such a venture. I've been shooting for my child's team this year and having a blast. But I'm giving away almost everything I shoot to the other parents on the team.

As for my concerns, first, I'd be very surprised if professional photography ever became my 9-5 job. So I'm a bit wary of presenting myself as a "professional photographer." My goal would simply be to have fun, and over time hopefully earn enough money to buy some extra gear like some pro-level fast lenses.

Second, if I do start "Wade Williams Photography" - I'm a little worried of the reaction of the parents on the same team as my son/daughter. Perhaps I'll get a bad reaction for selling next year what I did this year for free (though likely most of the parents won't be the same).

Third, if I do present myself as a professional, I feel like that perhaps obligates me to attend every game. While I enjoy attending my child's game, I'm not sure I would want to only catch a few minutes of it and then feel compelled to go shoot other games. I'd really feel like I was putting business in front of my children if I did that. Additionally, I'd feel compelled to attend every game on say every Saturday, where games may run from 9 am until 5 pm. That of course would result in many many hours just to go through the pics, much less post-process them. How long would my family be happy with that much time away from them for something that wasn't my primary career?

Finally, I'm a bit worried about the influx of "professionals." Right now we have one person selling end of-the-year DVD's. If I add myself to the mix and perhaps yet another person wants to try their hand, then we've got three people inside the fence. Eventually, parents may decide it's unfair that only people that are selling photos are allowed inside the fence. Then they start coming inside the fence to get free shots, then coaches complain about too many people inside the fence and the league ends up instituting a policy that only a league "official photographer" may be inside the fence. If that's not me then I've ruined my own fun. If it is me then I've got a huge responsibility.

This may be overly paranoid but these are all the thoughts going through my head as a I consider what I'm going to do next year. I think my work can become good enough that it seems a shame just to give it away - especially when my motivation is to enable myself to take even better pictures of the kids.

While there may not be a specific solution to these concerns, I'm mainly interested in hearing what other people are doing in their own similar businesses and the challenges they've faced and the solutions they've found.

Thanks for any input.

Rocketman766 · June 3, 2009

I guess my story is sorta like yours, but not exactly. I shoot my daughters cheerleading and gymnastics and some of the parents told me they would rather buy from me (a friend) than the onsite pro at many of the events. That is what prompted me to set up the website and then later, actually form a business. I don't claim to be a complete and true professional, but hope to get to that point one day. I also don't plan to replace my 9-5 right now and I don't ever see myself getting rich from doing what I do.

As far as the influx of professionals, I feel that I am in that group, but respect the real pro's for what they do. I was invited to be the event photographer at my first full event, I didn't seek it out. Since then, I have received 3 more invitations to be the event photographer. I would like to be one of the guys that everyone calls, but that will be a long way off.

Not everyone is happy with my shots being sold, but you can't please everyone !00% of the time. I don't attend every cheer event, but I try to attend as many as I can. We were already going to spend all day at the events to begin with, I don't feel that I am losing any time by staying and getting shots.

Good luck, hope this helps.

Cygnus Studios · June 3, 2009

You are at the crossroads that many of us have been to. Making the leap from casual photographer to pro photographer is not an easy choice. It certainly looks easy from the other side of the fence.
First you have to consider the business end of the photography business. The IRS and your state will have strict rules regarding your business.
There are legal issues that you really have to take into consideration. This applies whether you are a part time pro or making a living as a photographer.

The biggest difference between casual shooters and pros is the ability to deliver the finished product. When you are being paid to deliver a product, you have to be able to deliver. Excuses can get you sued in the real world. That seems to escape many people.
Think about it, McDonald's is being sued in 2 different states because they ran out of an item on their menu. These idiots probably won't win, but the lawyers charge the same amount of money whether the defendant is right or wrong.

What would you say to the parent of little Johnny who doesn't like the fact that you took pics of this child at an event?

What would you say if little Johnny's parent says he fell and broke his leg while watching you take his photo?

What if little Johnny runs into you while playing the game and breaks your camera?

What would you do if the official photographer sues you for selling images taken at an event where they have exclusive rights?

This isn't intended to scare you, but to get you to consider all the things involved in a business.

Let's look at some best case things that could happen.

What do you say to the little league if they want you to be the official photographer?

What if they want you to be the team photographer?

There are literally hundreds of things that a pro photographer has to consider when going out for a shoot. Clients have expectations that the pro has to meet or explain ahead of time why those expectations are not going to be met.

There is a huge difference between what the casual person on the spectator side of the fence is allowed to do than the person who is being paid to do it.

With all that said, the photography business is a great business for those who can make it. You get to work with all sorts of people, at all sorts of locations, and you get to immortalize a moment that most people only dream about.
It certainly can be very rewarding. Just be careful and consider all of the things necessary to make the leap.

bkatz · June 3, 2009

Wade -

Sounds silly - but what is really going to make you happy! I started where you are although I kind of gave up photography when I was younger for other pursuits. I started shooting my daughters game and was giving photos away. I caught the bug and was starting to be asked to shoot other games/teams. The business has grown from there and paid for some equipment and more.

Will there be parents from your current team who are upset - you betcha. Free is always better. First season (I turned pro) I sold the pictures to the parents on my team for $0.99 and I got complaints and my daughter's club $3.00 with 5% going back to the club. Other teams didn't complain but the parents on my team did. I had one parent complain because there were so many great pictures she couldn't afford them (complaint came in right before they left for Mexico for a week's vacation). I even had one parent tell me they were stealing the pics and removing the watermark....

The other teams in the club were thrilled with the pictures. Now I sell to my club for 50% of the price of other teams with no rebate back to the club. No complaints. The few who have asked why - I explain that I give them a professional product and I edit each picture before posting - once they understand the time there isn't a complaint.

I attend all of my daughter's games and I choose what other games I am going to shoot - and some days I choose not to shoot (it is the advantage of it being your own business). That being said - the more I shoot, the more in demand I become and yes it takes up more time. On the other hand whenever a sale comes in it makes me feel great(5 different sales today

). I usually take most of the summer off and shoot for me - landscapes are my thing - my wife doesn't always love me getting up before dawn on the weekends.....although she has seen some good sunsets.

So - back to the original question - what's going to make you happy? Photography makes me happy.:D Freezing moments in time is awesome. Don't get into it and deal with all the questions that Steve brought up - there is the good and the bad - when the parent comes up and demands that you stop shooting, all angry and until you engage them and understand that there is a sex offender in the area but all you galleries are password protected and the coach is in charge of access and they become very comfortable with you - to you took pictures of my son's team in the fall and I loved them - have one hanging on my wall and my son gets all proud everytime he walks by - if it isn't going to make you happy!

Good luck and stick around - there is lots of great advice here.

johng · June 4, 2009

Wade - here's my take:
It all comes down to your expectations of how much you want to make and how much time you're willing to invest. You said "child's" so I'm assuming only one child in sports.

Let's take some scenarios:

1) Your child plays rec league baseball. You're able to sell to other parents on your team. Soon there is interest from other teams (like another poster said). Are you willing to take time from your family to show up at games you're child is not at? Are you willing to miss one of your child's games because you have another game to shoot? Are you and your family OK with going early or staying late so you can shoot an early or late game?

2) You decide to only shoot your child's team. Next sport season rolls around - now it's soccer instead of baseball (or whatever) - now there's another parent with DSLR on the team and they're sharing photos for free. What are you going to do about that? Parents know both of you but onoe is giving away free photos and one is charging. I can assure you, it takes a LOT to motivate the casual rec-league parent to pry open their wallet to pay for action shots when decent (not great, but decent) shots are available for free. Do you stop the business or decide to shoot other teams/sports for this season because the money just isn't there due to the other parent.

In my experience, my best clients fall into 2 cateories:
1) Obsessed parents. These are the poor souls who are living vicariously through their kids sports. And, by the way, it's usually the obsessed MOMS. The dads, while obsessed, don't seem to care as much about photos.
2) the photo-happy mom. She loves taking photos and appreciates photos and scrapbooking. She recognizes and appreciates your photos are so much better than what she can do so she'll pay for them. Not so much with dads again. There egos come into play. Most dads who take pictures will take their own photos over yours because THEY took them. To them it's more important that the photos be taken by them than that the photos be high quality.

Without doubt, unless you live in a wealthy neighborhood, rec league sales aren't very good in my experience. Sales are MUCH better when parents are investing large $$$$ in their children's activities. Gymnastics, swim teams, traveling baseball/soccer/softball, etc. These are the parents that are more obsessed and quite honestly have more disposable income.

So you really have to decide which is your motivator:
Do you want to just make some extra coin shooting games you already shoot and no big deal i f you don't make more or is your goal to start a small photography business - in which case you have to prepare yourself for the thought that the team your child is playing for may be a bad market from a business standpoint.

MichaelKirk · June 4, 2009

Do your homework
Before you start getting too involved, make sure you do your homework first as you could be leagally encroaching where you are not allowed. This topic comes up all the time and there is a thread going on over at FM right now. May want to take a read for some additional education.

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/779667

Michael

wadesworld · June 4, 2009

Great thread here and a great thread there - lots to think about. Thanks all.

bipock · June 5, 2009

Wade, I'm going to bring up something a little different. During the year, I have a shot a friend's son's little league games. Really, more for them and I than for money. While doing it, several parents mentioned that no one ever does that and they have really been wanting to have someone do it.

This past weekend, I shot their EOY tournament. More than 1000 pics taken, over 700 posted. Gave out cards with website info and contact info, took time to talk to some of the parents, had a couple make special requests for photos of their child (which I accomodated). Tournament was Sat - Tues. I wasn't there Tues.

Here's what I found out about Tuesday's game: Every parent with a camera quit taking shots from the fence or the bleachers and did everything I did! Right field, center field, left field, on the field during warmups for the pitchers, so on and so forth. Basically, I held a teaching class on how to get pictures.

As of this morning, I have sold 5 pics from the tournament. I have my pics priced very reasonably. Lots of parents visited the website and loved the pictures but few have bought. Now, I have been told that it takes a few days for them to look and buy b/c they're burnt out from the season, so we'll see. Thinking it might help sales some, I even offer a donation to the league tied to sales - 5% up to $500 in sales, 10% when it crosses $500.

My point is this - what you hear before you start the business and what you hear after CAN BE two different things. Go into it knowing this. Just because they say "We prefer to buy" or "We'd like to buy" doesn't equal "We bought".

Blaker · June 5, 2009

bipock wrote:

Lots of parents visited the website and loved the pictures but few have bought. .

Just a heads up- I checked out your gallery, and it took me about 2 seconds to drag a photo from your smugmug site to my desktop, then into iphoto, and then uploaded to Apple photos to order some prints.
I'm not saying that your customers are doing this, but just that it is possible.
You might want to smack a large watermark across the center of the photos you are trying to sell.
Good luck!

Rocketman766 · June 5, 2009

bipock wrote:

My point is this - what you hear before you start the business and what you hear after CAN BE two different things. Go into it knowing this. Just because they say "We prefer to buy" or "We'd like to buy" doesn't equal "We bought".

I have heard "I found 5 or 6 photos that I am going to buy this week" a thousand times already, and about 10 of those parents actually bought. Lucky for me, I don't rely on just this one team (my daughters). I feel your pain on this one, but I'm not worried about it. I do this for myself and all of the other parents/teams also. 95% of my sales have come from other teams.

msf · June 6, 2009

bipock wrote:

Wade, I'm going to bring up something a little different. During the year, I have a shot a friend's son's little league games. Really, more for them and I than for money. While doing it, several parents mentioned that no one ever does that and they have really been wanting to have someone do it.

This past weekend, I shot their EOY tournament. More than 1000 pics taken, over 700 posted. Gave out cards with website info and contact info, took time to talk to some of the parents, had a couple make special requests for photos of their child (which I accomodated). Tournament was Sat - Tues. I wasn't there Tues.

Here's what I found out about Tuesday's game: Every parent with a camera quit taking shots from the fence or the bleachers and did everything I did! Right field, center field, left field, on the field during warmups for the pitchers, so on and so forth. Basically, I held a teaching class on how to get pictures.

As of this morning, I have sold 5 pics from the tournament. I have my pics priced very reasonably. Lots of parents visited the website and loved the pictures but few have bought. Now, I have been told that it takes a few days for them to look and buy b/c they're burnt out from the season, so we'll see. Thinking it might help sales some, I even offer a donation to the league tied to sales - 5% up to $500 in sales, 10% when it crosses $500.

My point is this - what you hear before you start the business and what you hear after CAN BE two different things. Go into it knowing this. Just because they say "We prefer to buy" or "We'd like to buy" doesn't equal "We bought".

I havent done any sports photography as a pro yet, but from other events, Ive discovered that I do much better when presenting the pictures in person, than I do when I show them online. Perhaps next time you could show the pictures on the last day or two to the parents instead of taking pictures. Another idea is to preorder pictures, where the parents get the pictures at a discount, no refund. This way you already got their money, they can order online when they want, forfeiting the money if they wait to long.

And watermarking is a great idea, in a way that wouldnt be worth trying to remove in photoshop.

I want to do sports, but I dont want to show up at someone's game that I dont know anyone at. And those that do play sports, I havent had a chance to attend any of the games yet.

bipock · June 6, 2009

Not trying to hijack Wade's thread here.

I have gone back and watermarked. I was under the impression it was done but apparently I was wrong. That problem is fixed.

I also shot all the teams in the tournament - not one. All the parents got cards from the coaches or from me. I too have thought about print sales onsite. I swore I wouldn't do that since I don't have a high enough quality printer (in my mind) to pull it off. Also, I've seen some of the crap friends have bought at events like tournaments. I promised myself under no circumstances would I produce or have my name attached to something that is not top quality. As I tods the parents, I post on the site and, when ordered, do some touch ups/cropping/straightening and so on. I also stressed that the prints come from a reputable and professional printer for far cheaper than they can buy at a game. I did have a couple small samples form my printer that most were impressed with but nothing from that tournament.

I had my first sale Thursday and the order has been shipped. Hope to hear great feedback from him. maybe it will stimulate.

MadisonPhotography · June 8, 2009

Events without "buy-in" don't work
We have been doing sports and event photography in and around Madison, WI and have booked several large events for this summer and fall. What we have found is that unless you get the host of the event to put our logo/link on the event website, put an ad in the event program/heatsheet and send out an email to participants you will basically work for the experience.

We have passed on doing events involving high school events (the parents of younger kids buy the most) and where the host club/team will not participate in getting the word out....

We also have a schedule of where we are going to be on our website and this has helped...

Nick

http://madisonphotography.org

Tosser · June 8, 2009

I've started putting them on the SM site so I could direct the parents who bug the daylights out of me for prints to the shopping cart. Not many sales to date, but I no longer get pestered for freebies.

MadisonPhotography · June 8, 2009

put a cork in the freebies
I quit giving away links to photos via Picasa a couple years ago.....some parents complain about the cost of photos while they drink their $5 lattes......sorry, go buy your own 1D

Tosser wrote:

I've started putting them on the SM site so I could direct the parents who bug the daylights out of me for prints to the shopping cart. Not many sales to date, but I no longer get pestered for freebies.

Ann McRae · June 9, 2009

Having just finished my first two major events, with a try at on site printing, my current POV is that you do not need on site printing, but on site viewing and ordering is a huge driver of business. And an 'only available if you buy now' price too! Sales post event trickle in...and trickling isn't good enough. But selling in the moment works!

ann

Snowgirl · June 9, 2009

Ann McRae wrote:

Having just finished my first two major events, with a try at on site printing, my current POV is that you do not need on site printing, but on site viewing and ordering is a huge driver of business. And an 'only available if you buy now' price too! Sales post event trickle in...and trickling isn't good enough. But selling in the moment works!

ann

Interesting to hear. I was wondering how you made out.

I'm doing a Barrel Racing event this week-end and am taking my laptop to show unedited images - and a stack of order forms and business cards - but no printer. For one thing, I'll be alone (no assistant). For another, it's an outdoor venue and I have no idea what, if any facilities I'll have for power, protection from the sun/rain/whatever god throws at us. I was going to buy a small tent to use as a booth at these things, but until I start getting some sales, this doesn't make sense, I think.

I'm still not sure that event photography is worth doing from a financial perspective given the time and effort, the vast number of photos you take, and the return. How do you feel, Ann, after doing these two biggies?

beetle8 · June 13, 2009

Once you try to make a business out of it, then it's work.

I would like to add something to what John said earlier about $investment.

I think Time investment is also very critical. the compulsory Gymnastics families invest a huge amount of time as well as money into the sport, and it equals better sales than anything else I've shot.

As the gymnasts get up in levels, the time investment from the parents trickles off and so do the sales.

Related to the onsite viewing and printing. I think onsite printing is a thing of the past, I think if you are at a larger event where people are hanging around for onsite viewing and immediate purchasing than it's definitely a good idea. However most of the youth events I shoot have everyone rushing for the parking lot as soon as they can. So what we have elected to do is cull our images to include a top percentage and upload them to SmugMug from the event. With as much onsite marketing as possible to let everyone know that the images will be online by the time they get home or shortly after. 70% of our sales happen in the first 48hours.

Art Scott · June 14, 2009

some of the hardest problems is as your "casual" business grows....as you become better known for your work.....juggling family and family commitment and the "casual " business can become a nightmare.....unless the family understands that the real benefits come down the road when the prices you charge can go waaay up and you can shoot waaaaaaay less to be able to do the things eveyone wants to enjoy........Yes a casual business can work but it takes commitment from all involed.....and believe me the whole family IS involved, whether they
realize it or not:D .

krwphoto · June 14, 2009

Parents, Pros, Onsite printing
I have been reading through this thread and it's been interesting. I am a pro, been in the business for thirty years. I am the multimedia editor for a group of newspapers north of Boston, MA. This past weekend I was shooting three high school baseball tournament games and ran into a neighbor of mine (who is a parent) shooting photos on the field of one of the local teams. He brought up the same points regarding shooting, selling etc. He now belongs here at the Smugs and still can't get the kids or their parents to purchase much even though the prices are at wholesale! I told him that the reason for this was that when he started, he was giving them away and is now charging. You can see my point never give away anything. It kills everyone who is trying to make a living at it. Low balling the price does the same thing.

I have shot enormous sporting events with 300 - 400 kids participating and have tried to offer photos both online and onsite. Believe me unless you are set up with five machines, instant pay, onsite printing from Sony 5x7 and 8x10 machines you are wasting your time. I have seen this done and these folks have it down. Try shooting a National hockey tournament - five rinks, 10 White Lightnings, just as many pocket wizards, four photogs, with out it.

The events I did were three day sailing events - the parents all have money! For various reasons sales were dismal. The last one was the best, total take was around $1500. I know, you've got to be kidding! This was total online and printing from home. I gave up the idea of printing onsite because I did not have the proper printers or system to make it work. I was showing books of contact sheets and slideshows on the computer. So unless you have the proper setup it's a waste of time. Smaller events you can get away with a much smaller setup. This was all done about three or four years ago. But things have not changed that much. At one of the events I was printing onsite with an Olympus P400. Let's say I paid for the printer and that was it. Sold it on ebay the next week for what I paid for it.

I know selling online works because I have a friend of mine who pushes it like crazy. He is a photojournalist working at a paper and part of his deal with the paper is his credit line says photos by xxxxx.com. He is making around $1500 per month in online sales. Online sales is all about marketing. So if you are a parent out there thinking you can make a few extra bucks for the 300 2.8 or whatever, do it! But make sure you never give the prints away on the cheap. Your time is worth money, your gear is worth money - it's called overhead. As a pro, I earned my gear by pricing my images correctly taking into account all the overhead. Ya I know you don't have as much overhead as I do. But how would you feel if I came into your business and low balled you, it hurts the integrity of everyone involved.

Just my opinion of course.

Can a casual sports business work?

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