dumb ? about 70-200 f/2.8 lens and sports

Lizardsim

Okay. This is a dumb question, but for some reason I cannot, for the life of me, get my brain wrapped around the logic of this lens.
If the lens is fixed at 2.8, is there any wiggle room to change the apeture to allow for more light? When I've borrowed this lens from a friend to shoot some of my sons' football or baseball games, I can't seem to grasp what to do as the sun is setting and the lights come on.
I bump my shutter speed up and the shots get darker, due to less light getting in, and then I bump my ISO up, which helps somewhat, but I still seem to have trouble stopping the action under the stadium lights....
What changes can I make to my shutter/ISO, etc., to compensate for the changes in lighting? Is there any way to stay within the 1/500th to 1/1000th shutter speed without everything getting darker??
And, does this even make sense??? :dunno
Thanks for any and all help!

P.S. am looking at archived posts, now, for more help. (I apologize for asking a repeat question, if I have....)

sweet caroline

I don't shoot sports and don't do much low light. I think some of the sports shooters just bump their ISO WAY up to compensate. When the shot is properly exposed, noise isn't as noticeable, and there's also noise reduction in processing.

I'm sure some of those awesome sports shooters will chime in with advice.

Caroline

Gary752

Lizardsim wrote:

Okay. This is a dumb question, but for some reason I cannot, for the life of me, get my brain wrapped around the logic of this lens.
If the lens is fixed at 2.8, is there any wiggle room to change the apeture to allow for more light? When I've borrowed this lens from a friend to shoot some of my sons' football or baseball games, I can't seem to grasp what to do as the sun is setting and the lights come on.
I bump my shutter speed up and the shots get darker, due to less light getting in, and then I bump my ISO up, which helps somewhat, but I still seem to have trouble stopping the action under the stadium lights....
What changes can I make to my shutter/ISO, etc., to compensate for the changes in lighting? Is there any way to stay within the 1/500th to 1/1000th shutter speed without everything getting darker??
And, does this even make sense???
Thanks for any and all help!

P.S. am looking at archived posts, now, for more help. (I apologize for asking a repeat question, if I have....)

I'm by far not an expert on this, but when they refer to a lens being a 2.8, they are referring to the widest aperture of the lens. As for the shutter speed, you went the wrong way with your adjustment. You should have gone with a slower shutter speed to keep the photo from becoming darker. What mode are you using? SP, AP or manual? By bumping up the ISO setting up higher, you would be able to use a faster shutter speed. I'm sure that someone more knowlegable will chime in here if I'm wrong!

GaryB

DJ-S1

The larger the aperture, the more light is coming in. Confusingly, the NUMBER (2.8) is smaller when the aperture is bigger. So if you had the lens at 2.8, that's all the light the lens can get. Changing to a larger NUMBER (5.6, for instance) actually closes the aperture and lets in less light.

If you have poor light, select 2.8 and bump up the ISO to get the shutter speeds you are looking for. Hope that helps.

That is a very nice lens.

cecilc

Lizardsim wrote:

If the lens is fixed at 2.8, is there any wiggle room to change the apeture to allow for more light?

No .... to change the aperture to allow for more light would require a different lens MEANT to allow that .... for instance, a 2.0 or 1.8 or 1.4 lens. A 2.8 lens opens up to 2.8 - period. But I gotta ask - What "wiggle room" would you be expecting?

Lizardsim wrote:

... I can't seem to grasp what to do as the sun is setting and the lights come on.
I bump my shutter speed up and the shots get darker, due to less light getting in, and then I bump my ISO up, which helps somewhat, but I still seem to have trouble stopping the action under the stadium lights....
What changes can I make to my shutter/ISO, etc., to compensate for the changes in lighting? Is there any way to stay within the 1/500th to 1/1000th shutter speed without everything getting darker??

Unless you've got some really GOOD stadium lighting, getting 1/500 would be a bit of stretch in most stadiums that I shoot in ...
Your ISO setting HAS to be jacked up as the light fades, followed by your aperture settings opening up, and finally by your shutter speeds dropping. And that's the order that I compensate for fading light - ISO up; apertures opening up; then shutter speed adjustments. Under stadium lights my settings usually wind up being ISO 3200; f2.8; 1/400 or 1/500. Again, the lighting in the stadium that you usually shoot in will determine your exposures ....

wadesworld

As Cecil says, depending on your lens and camera, eventually you'll reach a point where there's insufficient light to stop action successfully. You've opened your lens all the way, jacked the ISO all the way up and have no choice but to reduce the shutter speed below 1/500 or 1/250 and it keeps going down. At that point you've done all you can and stopping action is just no longer an option.

Pros with the best lens and best camera may never reach that point, depending on the stadium lights, since they have awesome lenses and cameras that can reach insane ISO levels.

For me, an amateur with a marginal lens and a good, but not high-end pro camera (D300), that point comes when it turns completely dark. When it does, I've got no choice but to quit trying to get action shots and work on getting some static shots that I may not have gotten the chance to get yet.

Mike J

Everyone else has pretty much explained things... open up the aperature (lower f-stop) first. Once you've gone as far as you can there, start increasing the ISO. Once you reach the limit of what this will do for you, you then have to slowing you shutter speed down.

You don't list what camera you are shooting with. Some cameras (like the Nikon D300) have an auto ISO feature that you can use to your advantage. For instance, on the D300 if you enable the auto ISO feature and set your camera to Manual, you can specify the aperature and the shutter speed that you want to use. The D300 will then vary the ISO on each shot to allow you "hold" you specified aperature and SS. It will vary the ISO up to a max you specify.

Lizardsim

I really appreciate the feedback. Thanks, y'all!

My friend (a very, very good friend, indeed!) has allowed me to borrow the lens I was asking about, and to be honest, I haven't done any research on it--just started shooting with it.
I didn't express my question too well, but you've confirmed what I've been doing as correct. I knew that if I pushed up my shutter speed, I was allowing less light in (or, less time), which, in turn, created darker photos. (So, I knew I needed slower shutter speeds, especially as the night grew dimmer and the lights came on.) And, I knew that I needed to bump up my ISO, as well, which I did.


But, I guess I finally got brave enough to ask someone about the fixed 2.8 aspect. What I should have asked is, what does 'fixed 2.8' mean for this lens? Or any lens with a fixed apeture.... (Someone mentioned above it is the widest apeture the lens will open to.)

I usually shoot, in Manual or Tv mode, mainly because I figured I couldn't change the apeture, since it was "fixed." ...inexperience showing! I think that's where I was getting confused, thinking I couldn't change the apeture on a fixed lens.

Anyway, your responses have helped, and I really appreciate it! I'm a little embarrassed that I asked, but I guess you don't learn if you don't ask, right!?
E.

P.S. I WAS using a Canon Rebel during last football season and most of this baseball season, but have recently started using my new 50D. (mother's day gift!!!) (Okay, I'm thinking I'm a little too smiley-face-happy....)

Lizardsim

P.S. I really did such a poor job on my first post, especially....very confusing between my first post and my second.... please forgive me....

I think the "fixed 2.8" question needed to be completely separate from the discussion of the woes of stadium lighting.

Ugh.

Sorry.

rainbow

"Fixed" may be also referring to the fact that if you open the aperture to maximum, which is 2.8, it will stay there irregardless of the focal length you zoom to. There are "variable" apertures (like my 10-22 f/3.5-4.5) whereby the aperture changes with the focal length, so that it may be 3.5 at 10mm but 4.5 at 22 mm.

So the "fixed" aperture is better in that it remains wide open and does not close down with focal length changes.

Regarding your specific issue, your problem is solved by spending more money: either a camera that will shoot at a higher ISO or a prime lens with a wider (eg -- 2.0 or 1.8 or 1.4) aperture or both! Each f stop (eg -- 2.8 to 2) will allow a doubling of the shutter speed.

Toshido

I would explain "fixed" more like this.

Regardless of the aperture set, the aperture does not change with the focal length.



Variable aperture lenses will change the maximum aperture (lowest number) based on focal length.


Fixed does NOT mean that the aperture can not be changed.

Oldaker

i had this same question about "fixed aperature", and as it was explained to me i understood it very well

"Constant" would be the better word, meaning at 70mm you can use f2.8 and at 200mm you can use f2.8

MT Stringer

I agree with everything Cecil said. That's my work flow also. I usually shoot sports at f/3.2 - f/4. In the case of football, as the sun sets, I back off to f/2.8. Then as it gets darker and I see the shutter speed dropping, I start increasing the ISO eventually winding up at ISO 3200. I switch to manual because sometime the uniforms or hot spots from the stadium lights will fool the camera light meter.

At the high school fields I shoot at, 1/400 sec, f/2.8 and ISO 3200 is what I wind up with once it gets dark. Same goes for baseball and softball.

Here is an example of night high school baseball. I noticed I used aperature priority on this shot.
Canon 20D, Sigma 120-300 f/2.8
ISO 3200, f/2.8, 1/400 sec.

I hope this helps.
Mike

I love this shot. The crack of the bat got everyones attention!

ClaireJ

You can get some decent photos with a 70-200mm lens at f2.8. I work in the dark for most of my sports season - rugby union is played in the gloomy UK winter.

Get yourself some decent noise management software, stay on f2.8, keep an eye on the speed and as it gets darker up the iSO... you get results such as these...



This was taken on a very dark, misty evening...









Have some confidence and go for it I say!

rockcanyonphotos

Lizardsim wrote:

Okay. This is a dumb question, but for some reason I cannot, for the life of me, get my brain wrapped around the logic of this lens.
If the lens is fixed at 2.8, is there any wiggle room to change the apeture to allow for more light? When I've borrowed this lens from a friend to shoot some of my sons' football or baseball games, I can't seem to grasp what to do as the sun is setting and the lights come on.
I bump my shutter speed up and the shots get darker, due to less light getting in, and then I bump my ISO up, which helps somewhat, but I still seem to have trouble stopping the action under the stadium lights....
What changes can I make to my shutter/ISO, etc., to compensate for the changes in lighting? Is there any way to stay within the 1/500th to 1/1000th shutter speed without everything getting darker??
And, does this even make sense???
Thanks for any and all help!

P.S. am looking at archived posts, now, for more help. (I apologize for asking a repeat question, if I have....)

If you were using the Canon 70-200mm/f2.8 lens then your lens is not "fixed" at f2.8 it is just "limited" to an aperture of f2.8. You can go go a higher aperture all you want.

For example, if you use your Tv mode (shutter priority) on your 50D... it allows you to set your ISO and shutterspeed to a fixed amount (say ISO1600 and 1/500) now lets assume you had decent light when you started shooting and it starts getting darker as the game goes on... what you will see is that your camera will start out taking well exposed photos at an aperture of say f5.6, then as it gets darker your camera will start opening up the aperture more and more to allow you to maintain your shutterspeed (and correct exposure) until you reach the aperture "limit" on the lens of f2.8. At this point if you do not adjust your camera to either a higher ISO and/or slower shutterspeed your photos will start becoming darker because you have told the camera that the only thing it can change is the aperture and it has reached it's "limit" at f2.8, so the camera's only choice now is to take an underexposed photo.

hope this helps, kevin

Lizardsim

Thank you, thank you, everyone!
Even with my convoluted post(s), you were able to make sense of my questions/issues.
E.

dejan80501

Lizardsim wrote:

I really appreciate the feedback. Thanks, y'all!

My friend (a very, very good friend, indeed!) has allowed me to borrow the lens I was asking about, and to be honest, I haven't done any research on it--just started shooting with it.
I didn't express my question too well, but you've confirmed what I've been doing as correct. I knew that if I pushed up my shutter speed, I was allowing less light in (or, less time), which, in turn, created darker photos. (So, I knew I needed slower shutter speeds, especially as the night grew dimmer and the lights came on.) And, I knew that I needed to bump up my ISO, as well, which I did.


But, I guess I finally got brave enough to ask someone about the fixed 2.8 aspect. What I should have asked is, what does 'fixed 2.8' mean for this lens? Or any lens with a fixed apeture.... (Someone mentioned above it is the widest apeture the lens will open to.)

I usually shoot, in Manual or Tv mode, mainly because I figured I couldn't change the apeture, since it was "fixed." ...inexperience showing! I think that's where I was getting confused, thinking I couldn't change the apeture on a fixed lens.

Anyway, your responses have helped, and I really appreciate it! I'm a little embarrassed that I asked, but I guess you don't learn if you don't ask, right!?
E.

P.S. I WAS using a Canon Rebel during last football season and most of this baseball season, but have recently started using my new 50D. (mother's day gift!!!) (Okay, I'm thinking I'm a little too smiley-face-happy....)

Hey, the only dumb question is the Q not asked! Questions, trial & error shots and photo critiques are how we learn.

I'll add my nickles worth here...for low light action: You really need to push the ISO and have a fast lens. Go FX, like the D700 or D3 and use a lens with a set aperture of 2.8 or less where you can really push the ISOs to >6400 and have the advantage of a 70-200/2.8 and get killer shots. I have the D300 and the referenced lens. If your "up close" to the action, maybe consider a flash to stop the action.

dejan80501

ClaireJ wrote:

You can get some decent photos with a 70-200mm lens at f2.8. I work in the dark for most of my sports season - rugby union is played in the gloomy UK winter.

Get yourself some decent noise management software, stay on f2.8, keep an eye on the speed and as it gets darker up the iSO... you get results such as these...



This was taken on a very dark, misty evening...









Have some confidence and go for it I say!

Good point & very nice shots!