me vs. YMCA...Need some advise

sonny_c

Here's the deal,

On May 5, 2009 I was asked by a parent to take action photos of her son's flag football game at the YMCA. With the permission of the other parents I also photographed the other players. The parents knew I was there to take the photos and place the photos online for the parents to purchase.

Fast forward to today. I received a voice mail. The person leaving the voice mail notified me she just saw my posting on my website of the flag football game. She goes on to say, "unfortunately that's not something we do. That's something you need to come in and talk to us about. Talk about a partnership and submit a background check to be on their property"

I don't have a problem with their requests. I will most likely take them offline because enough time has pasted and I don't see anymore parents buying photos. For future reference I would like to know:

1. Legally what are my rights in this situation?
2. What are the right of the YMCA
3. If I want to do so, could I leave my photos online?

I'd appreciate any help and advise you may have to offer. Thank you in advance.
-Sonny

wadesworld

I'm not a lawyer. But I've read quite a bit about such subjects and here's my understanding:

sonny_c wrote:

1. Legally what are my rights in this situation?

If you were a member or an invited guest, legally you had the right to take pictures (unless there's something in the membership agreement prohibiting it and there may be). The YMCA, while private property is open to the public (well, members and their guests). If you take pictures of non-public areas or prohibited areas (such as locker rooms), you could be cited for trespassing. In the case of a locker room, you could be charged with other crimes.

The same situation applies to a grocery store or public mall for example. Both are private property that is open to the public. You can take all the pictures you want - until they ask you to stop. Then you have to comply with their request.

Given that they've notified you that you need to work with them, you'd be on legally shaky ground if you went back without their permission.

2. What are the right of the YMCA

They have the right to tell you to stop taking pictures anywhere on their property. If you refuse, they have the right to escort you off the property. They do NOT have the right to tell you to take down your pictures, delete your pictures or confiscate your camera.

3. If I want to do so, could I leave my photos online?

Yes. However, you have to consider "the cost" of doing so. Make one YMCA director mad, and you can bet the word will get out to all of them.

Your best bet in this case is to comply with their request, then go sit down and work something out. Be extremely nice and see if you can turn the situation to your advantage.

Angelo

I don't think you've told us enough for anyone to give you meaningful advice.

Firstly; Who called you?

Secondly; What is the "something they don't do"?

sonny_c

Angelo wrote:

I don't think you've told us enough for anyone to give you meaningful advice.

Firstly; Who called you?

Secondly; What is the "something they don't do"?

I wish I could give you more information but that's all that was left on my voice mail. The lady did not mention her position with the YMCA. As for your second part, those were her words.

Sorry.

Cygnus Studios

So how do you know it simply wasn't some parent who is unhappy that you snapped a pic of their kid?

wadesworld

So how do you know it simply wasn't some parent who is unhappy that you snapped a pic of their kid?

A parent wouldn't suggest you come in, have a background check and work out an arrangement.

Toshido

sonny_c wrote:

1. Legally what are my rights in this situation?
2. What are the right of the YMCA
3. If I want to do so, could I leave my photos online?

Take my words with a grain of salt. Being in Canada most of the stuff I have researched is same or at least VERY close to what little I have seen of American law.

1. As long as the game was outside, shoot away. Unless otherwise posted parks and sports fields have an implied invitation to the public. Same sort of implied invitation that stores have and so on.
While it is private property an implied invitation is open to the public to use that land for it's intended purpose.
It is also reasonable to assume that people take pictures of kids playing games on the fields. So photography should be assumed on the field as well.
Of course a sign clearly stating no cameras or photography would change that. I will assume that no such sign exists.

2. The YMCA owning the property, or at least having rights to dictate it's use, can ask you to stop taking pictures. They can also do things like ban you from the property in the form of a trespass warning. In an extreme case, such as you returning to the land after a trespass warning, they can arrest you for trespassing.
Yes in Canada anyone can make an arrest and detain a person, I have done it many times working loss prevention. Essentially the same as a citizen's arrest in the states.

3. Absolutely you could leave the pictures online. Those are your pictures and you can do what you like with them. With the exception of selling them or using them for promoting a business, service, or product. Those would require model releases.

To me it sounds like the YMCA is pissed because they are not getting a piece of the profits (partnership). Of course this phone call could possibly act as a verbal request that you not take pictures on their property again. This could lead to trespassing charges if you ignore their request and go back to take pictures again.
More than likely though they would just ask you to stop taking pictures if you did it again.


Again I know all I said above applies to Canadian law. I believe it is applicable to American law as well.

Angelo

sonny_c wrote:

I wish I could give you more information but that's all that was left on my voice mail. The lady did not mention her position with the YMCA. As for your second part, those were her words.

Sorry.

Given the lack of information provided to you and the fact that this is an event that took place in the past I would simply ignore it.

ic4u

As the daughter of a father who has been an active volunteer, and has held very high positions on the board, locally, regionally and statewide for the YMCA, I can reasonably assume that they are just looking out for their best interests in this lawsuit happy society we live in. The YMCA is such a good, Christian organization, but an easy target for frivalous(sp?) lawsuits as something like this. I think your best bet is to put the photos in a protected gallery, and give the parents that have agreed, the password to enter your gallery. Hope this helps!,

Chile Chef

sonny_c wrote:

Here's the deal,

On May 5, 2009 I was asked by a parent to take action photos of her son's flag football game at the YMCA. With the permission of the other parents I also photographed the other players. The parents knew I was there to take the photos and place the photos online for the parents to purchase.

Fast forward to today. I received a voice mail. The person leaving the voice mail notified me she just saw my posting on my website of the flag football game. She goes on to say, "unfortunately that's not something we do. That's something you need to come in and talk to us about. Talk about a partnership and submit a background check to be on their property"

I don't have a problem with their requests. I will most likely take them offline because enough time has pasted and I don't see anymore parents buying photos. For future reference I would like to know:

1. Legally what are my rights in this situation?
2. What are the right of the YMCA
3. If I want to do so, could I leave my photos online?

I'd appreciate any help and advise you may have to offer. Thank you in advance.
-Sonny

I might get banned for saying what I'm about to say, but this is how I feel and should be done.



1.First of all, don't ask for lawyer type advice on any giving forum, No matter if it's a legit forum like Dgrin here,

I've learned a long time ago you want to keep this type of info personal and you may wantt o do a free visit to the laywers office.


2.As I said before I would go ask an attorney at law what your rights are before I would ask on any public forum since you may get a John Q fella saying yeah you got rights there, and you then go back and get arrested before you settled up with the YMCA.


3. I wish you the best of luck, and I hope everything turns out!

Seefutlung

Firstly, if the YMCA owns the property/rents the property, then its their call ... period. I think the problem is that you're charging $$$. You are conducting business on their property of which they haven't given concent and in which the YMCA does not participate.

If you're shooting for pleasure/pro bono and invited to do so by a member ... then it would probably okay. If you're shooting for profit, well you'll need approval(s) from the owners.

Gary

sonny_c

Thank you all so very much. I appreciate all the advise given.

I totally understand both sides of this situation. I've been shooting youth sports as a business for five years and I am a father of three young children, so I can understand them wanting to protect of the children.

This was my first time shooting a YMCA event. I believe I should of taken more responsibility to confirm the YMCA rules regarding commercial photography. I assumed the parent worked out the details. It's always a learning process . In good faith I will take down the photos from that day and probably schedule a day to meet with them. Like some of you mentioned, it could be beneficial to both of us.

Thanks again,
-Sonny