Help!!!!! Location for my first wedding

lisarhinehart · June 29, 2009

Friends

My mission was to take a couple quick shots of the location to get a basic feel for it and the lighting I would be working with, come my first wedding in August (I will second shoot for 3 others before that). I am frankly embarressed about the amature quality of these shots and am ready for some "early afternoon lighting bootcamp."

1. The bride will enter under the white arch-- directly behind it are very ugly and outdated lodges, (the lodges are where the bridal party gets ready) so I'm thinking I'll shoot her from about here as to avoid getting siding and plastic lawn furniture and to give myself enough time to get the look on the groom's face when he sees her for the first time. To walk down the isle she will turn at the daylillies and walk right along side of that protruding sundial.

2. The bridal party will be in the SHADE of this flowering row of bushes which are due to have white flowers at the time. Shade!?! Flowers? How lucky am I?

The reception will be on the terrace which will result in natural light (good) but major backlighting for the bridal party which will be seated at this table
3.

4. The cake will be cut here

Some possibilitites for thier creative portraits which we are plannnign to take around 6:30pm when they sneak out of the reception.
4.

5.

I would like to know more about how to best use the natural light to my advantage and becoming skilled in a using fill flash, including in the case of backlighting. I also am going to need to know where to take my meter readings in these different situations, and just in general with the bride in bright white and groom in dark black. Now that I'm thinking about metering, I think I metered the tree trunk in #1 and leaves in #2-- which could have a major contribution to my exposure issues.

The wedding isn't until the end of August so I do have some time for a photography boot camp of sorts. I would appreciate resources on dealing with my biggest issues as I don't have too much time. I want to nail them and avoid being side-tracked by nits-- I'm new to all of this so beware my nits are HUGE. I guess what I'm asking is what do you think my biggest problem is and can you point me to a resource that will help me to be prepared to tackle it?

Thanks in advance for taking time out to :help .

ChatKat · June 29, 2009

You are going to have potential dappled light. You have to be very careful that the images won't have a green cast. From your gear list, you don't have a pro lens in the line up or a body fast enough to react to the demands of a wedding.

You need two of everything - cameras, lenses, batteries, flashes - at a minimum. I don't go to a wedding with less than three cameras and 8 lenses and 4 flashes or more.

Lighting is most important. The dapple of the trees and shade is very time consuming to fix. Ski nand white wedding dresses need adjusting too. The light coming from the windows at the reception will either need to be matched using strobes or you can focus on the subject and blow the background. You would want to practice heavily to get it right.

Scott Quier has a great article he wrote. I think it's a sticky. Read it.

Scott_Quier · June 29, 2009

ChatKat wrote:

Scott Quier has a great article he wrote. I think it's a sticky. Read it.

Wow - that means a lot coming from you!

Lisa - the article to which Kathy is referring is linked in my signature - read it for a starting point. There are lots of other articles and information in the resources at the top of this forum.

First - without knowing what you have for a kit (I sure hope you have more than is listed in your signature) I had to cover a lot of bases. It may appear that I'm trying to tell you that you can't possibly do this. This is not my intent! What I am trying to do is to help you appropriately set your expectations and also to provide you with some input into how to better prepare for the task ahead. With proper preparation, I think you will do just fine. So, with that for an introduction ....

Something to consider .... You took these test shots in the early afternoon in June. How does this light compare with what you will be getting in late August? For what time of day is the wedding scheduled? You need to take into account the position of the sun and how, for a given time of day, it changes during the course of the year. Two months can make a big difference.

Are you sure about the condition of the foliage at that time of year. Like Kathy says, watch out for dappled light.

If the wedding is taking place in the shade as you say, what do you have for backgrounds? Are you going to have to deal with a lot of sun on the backgrounds? If so, you have a couple of choices to consider:

No additional lighting, exposing for the B&G and letting the exposure of the background fall where it may
Add lighting to the B&G such that you bring up the illumination of the wedding party closer to that of the background - this will help keep the background exposure from blowing.

Rebel XT for your one and only camera - hmmmm - nothing like making life hard on yourself. Things to consider here are related to camera response time:

How long does it take the camera to wake up once it goes to sleep (auto power off)?
How big is the buffer - how many RAW files will it hold before the camera has to take a break and unload one or more to the card?
How fast will the buffer unload RAW files to the card?

I can't state this strongly enough - you need backups for everything that can break and/or fail. The very last thing you want to have to do is to tell your client that you were only shooting for about 30 minutes because your camera locked up and wouldn't restart - bummer. Think about the disappointment, to say nothing about the damage done to your reputation.

While it might be expensive, if I were you, I think I would seriously consider renting a 40D or 50D for a week or two, right now to get used to it. These cameras are significantly different from the XT. Then, I would rent at least one of them for at least three days before the wedding, if for not other reason than to check it/them out and get re-acquainted. With renting one, you have your XT as a second and/or backup camera. If you rent two, you won't have to do any mental translations during the event. On, and why the 40D/50D? Because it is a good starting point as a camera to do the job. The buffer is up to the task. They are responsive. The AF works well enough - not as well as other cameras, but well enough - to shoot in the (potentially) darker environs of the reception.

The lenses you have are sufficient to shoot a wedding, provided neither one breaks. I have shot more than one wedding using just my 17-55. It can be done. Were I you, I would seriously consider renting a 30mm or 35mm prime and a 70-200 f/2.8L (IS would be a good idea here). The 30/35 would provide a backup for the 17-55 and the 70-200 would provide you the reach that is nice to have for those times when getting closer to the action would create a distraction and/or destroy the atmoshpere. These two lenses, added to your kit would give you the insurance you need in that you will have all the "required" focal lengths duplicated.

What do you have for lighting equipment? If the light you show in the indoor shots is representative of what you will encounter on the day, you are going to have a rough time. The cake will be strongly backlit. So will the head table. In both cases, this means that background will be seriously blown if you expose for your subject. You cake location shot provides a good example of what I'm talking about. If the reception is later in the day, you may not have enough ambient light and you will need to suppliment that. So, do you have a couple of flashes?

I guess that's enough for now. Just remember that these are suggestions of things to think about. What you do is, obviously, completely up to you. I know you can do this - wedding photography is not rocket science.

lisarhinehart · June 29, 2009

gear update, breif history
Oops my gear list is in need of an update, let me fix that

, sorry.

My brief history: I started selling my point-and-shoot photography (mostly nature) at a few local events and made enough profit to pay for 25 matted framed pieces/tent/fees/business cards/everything else needed to sell at a few art fairs, my smug pro account, as well as a Rebel in less than 2 years. My art clients started asking me if I would be willing to shoot weddings so I began looking into that and joined dgrin, in the mean time I agreed to shoot my SIL's wedding and have been advised to upgrade my gear. I am very pleased with my new gear list (great advice guys/gals) but I now have a huge learning curve as I have great stuff and need to figure out how to use it.

So here I am trying to figure out what to do with all this early afternoon light and new equipment.

All these were shot with my rebel without a flash at f4.5 and making likely idiotic metering choices.

wadesworld · June 29, 2009

Lisa,

I can't offer help on the photography, but the one thing that might help is pointing out that there are lots of sites on the Internet that will show you the position of the sun on any particular date. Once such site is:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/sunmooncalc/

Combine that with a good compass and you can determine exactly where on the horizon the sun will be setting on that day and what time. That might help in your planning.

Good luck!

Scott_Quier · June 29, 2009

lisarhinehart wrote:

Oops my gear list is in need of an update, let me fix that , sorry.

My brief history: I started selling my point-and-shoot photography (mostly nature) at a few local events and made enough profit to pay for 25 matted framed pieces/tent/fees/business cards/everything else needed to sell at a few art fairs, my smug pro account, as well as a Rebel in less than 2 years. My art clients started asking me if I would be willing to shoot weddings so I began looking into that and joined dgrin, in the mean time I agreed to shoot my SIL's wedding and have been advised to upgrade my gear. I am very pleased with my new gear list (great advice guys/gals) but I now have a huge learning curve as I have great stuff and need to figure out how to use it.

So here I am trying to figure out what to do with all this early afternoon light and new equipment.

All these were shot with my rebel without a flash at f4.5 and making likely idiotic metering choices.

Given the update ....

Lens-wise I think you are good to go. You have enough over-lap to get the job done, even if one or more lenses go on strike. The 28-135 is not a stellar performer but, in good outdoor light, will do just fine.

The 50mm and the 17-55 will carry the day indoors.

The flash can be used both in- and out-doors to help control shadows and to help over-come dynamic range issues.

If you are going to use your 580 on-camera (and it sounds like this is the case) you may want to consider a flash bracket. A proper bracket will keep your flash above your lens, regardless of the orientation of the camera, thus eliminating those amateur-ish looking side-shadows. Do a search on DGrin, there's lots of threads discussing the various alternatives and the pros and cons of each.

For the indoor work, you might also want to look at the pages linked in my signataure ("A Better Bounce Card", and "Light Scoop") as direct flash is not a goodness!

So, all that's left is for you to do between now and the end of August is to get to know your camera (optimally, you should be able to make any adjustment to the settings in the dark) and learn how to balance your flash output with the ambient light. Hmmm .... I don't know what you're worried about - plenty of time

:lol Seriously, it'll be a lot of work to get to the point where setting the flash power right will be second nature, but it's really not rocket science. A little practice (with a willing model) and you should very well have the basics down just fine. Here are a few threads that should provide you with a starting point:

zoomer · June 29, 2009

Practice like crazy with your flash. Get a good bracket and practice with backlight and dappled lighting.
In those settings it is going to make or break your day.

Scott_Quier · June 29, 2009

zoomer wrote:

Practice like crazy with your flash. Get a good bracket and practice with backlight and dappled lighting.
In those settings it is going to make or break your day.

Avoid the dappled light to the maximum extent possible. It is nearly impossible to fix it in post. At the very least, it's quite expensive ... in terms of time.

Qarik · June 29, 2009

1st thing that comes to mind in wrt outside shade lighting is fill flash. This requires you put the flash in manual mode and dial the power to some where between 1/8 to 1/16 power to fill in shadows around the face but to avoid specular highlights and casting shadows.

lisarhinehart · June 29, 2009

focus on lighting-- and flash in particular
Wade: I actually did account for the time change and went 45 minutes early so I could see similar lighting conditions-- but my predictions were not so precise and wow-- what a cool tool!!!

Scott-- thanks for your advice and positive attitude. It is d-grinners like you that actually got me to realize that I needed to make a much heavier investment before saying yes to any of these wedding offers. I think you advized me in the purchase of a few of those lenses

. I have read your link, but it's been a few months-- I'll check it out again. As far as how shady is the shade-- you can see it for yourself in #2, it's a little dappled, but relatively solid in my oppinion. They will be lined up against the bushes.

As far as flash, you are all thinking the same as me on that-- I really need to get a lot of practice with working backlighting, dappled light, using fill flash etc and get to know how to use my flash-- I really hope it isn't rocket science! I do have a fong cloud and am curious as to the cost of a decent bracket-- or even a general price range. My tripod is also junk, but I am seriously running low on funds.

Even though my SIL doesn't seem to care too much about pics, I would like to give her my absolute best. My hope is to use this wedding and my 3 second shooting outings to start my portfolio, so I really want to get this right for those reasons as well.

Thanks guys-- I'm just on my lunch break and gotta go

--Lisa

PS: My SIL is having her bridesmaids in raspberry and maid of honor in apple green-- I think this is odd and haven't seen it in any of your pics-- I hope this won't detract from the portfolio opportunity too much. Thoughts?

Scott_Quier · June 29, 2009

Tripod -about the only time I use one is when I'm the second and shooting from the peanut gallery or when I'm shooting the family formal portraits. At all other times, it's pretty much a game of hold it as steady as possible.

smurfy · June 30, 2009

world clock website link
Lisa,

I'm sure you are going to do a great job. It's a wonderful location and will allow you to get above them and shoot down from that porch, which Marcus Bell is a strong advocate of. (And he is way better than I can ever dream to be; his overhead advice is so right: Slims, flatters, no double chins, and evokes romance.) Try to use the natural light to your advantage, shoot when the sun is low on the horizon for some of the romantics, and be glad the girls aren't wearing black or cream and carrying ivory flowers. (BORING pics!) Most people checking portfolios will book you based on the couple alone, but color is more fun than neutrals, and those two colors are opposite enough on the color wheel to work well. Look at your amazing nature shots- God mixes bright hues in so much of creation.

One word of caution: Sometimes flash brackets can be too big to allow you to use the flash on a bride in tight spots, like inside a limo as you shoot from outside the window. May not matter if her skin is light, but if she is darker, I find I need flash for those shots and the bracket has cost me some. I just use the flash with a diffuser, mounted right on the hot shoe, and point it slightly up for most pictures requiring that light. (not for outdoor fill, no diffuser is needed for that). And, if possible, have a second camera with no flash on your other shoulder. Maybe that's another reason brackets are not my favorite: I'm a rather small girl who shoots with two cameras at once already, the bracket makes it hard to handle more than one camera.

Here's a link that might be helpful-
( to check sunset time for any date and location:) http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunrise.html

jeffreaux2 · June 30, 2009

Qarik wrote:

1st thing that comes to mind in wrt outside shade lighting is fill flash. This requires you put the flash in manual mode and dial the power to some where between 1/8 to 1/16 power to fill in shadows around the face but to avoid specular highlights and casting shadows.

This is NOT true.

The Canon 50D or XT will work fine with the 580EX or EXII in ETTL mode for fill flash using only the FEC dial to adjust the amount of light that the flash contributes to the exposure. Be sure to enable high speed synch.

For exposure modes on the camera, Id be tempted to use AV for the entry..(the light will be changing as she walks across the lawn)..but M (manual) for everything else. Dont chimp the photos, instead....set the camera up for chimping the histogram....and watch your highlights!

MA-FOTO · June 30, 2009

this is really good advice coming out here..... nice.

I would add: notice how several poster mentioned diffuser but not the Fong stuff.....
while the Fong does work, IMHO, it is over priced and make your flash work harder than it needs to.

While unlikely, be-aware that if you hit a very hot august day and are using the fong on your 580EX flash to fill outside shots - get in to a rhythm of not fiing shots to close together.
Meaning: add about 10 second between shot or more.
why; so the flash does not over heat on you. usually you let it cool down and it will start working again.
remember - you won't have time on your side.

Just my 2 cents ....

this will be fun to follow over the summer....

Later,
_Mark

Qarik · June 30, 2009

jeffreaux2 wrote:

This is NOT true.

The Canon 50D or XT will work fine with the 580EX or EXII in ETTL mode for fill flash using only the FEC dial to adjust the amount of light that the flash contributes to the exposure. Be sure to enable high speed synch.

For exposure modes on the camera, Id be tempted to use AV for the entry..(the light will be changing as she walks across the lawn)..but M (manual) for everything else. Dont chimp the photos, instead....set the camera up for chimping the histogram....and watch your highlights!

Hmm..I never considered keeping it in TTL and dialling down the FEC eqivalent on the nikon speed lights. I suppose that could work.

ChatKat · June 30, 2009

MA-FOTO wrote:

this is really good advice coming out here..... nice.

While unlikely, be-aware that if you hit a very hot august day and are using the fong on your 580EX flash to fill outside shots - get in to a rhythm of not fiing shots to close together.
Meaning: add about 10 second between shot or more.
why; so the flash does not over heat on you. usually you let it cool down and it will start working again.
remember - you won't have time on your side.

I would NEVER think of shooting a wedding with only one camera around my neck - each loaded with a flash.

If you have a failure of any kind - you might miss a moment- Flash, Camera, Lens or Compact Flash! I take a few shots with one body and then change to another body and go back and forth throughout the ceremony. This buys me some insurance that is irreplaceable! Usually with a 16-35 on one body and 70-200 on the other
I do the same at the reception with the 16-35 and 24-105 or 24-70 depending.

Scott_Quier · June 30, 2009

The GF LS is an OK tool INDOORS or if you have lots of battery power to throw away.

Indoors, the light that is thrown everywhere but at the subject is bounced off walls, etc and eventually makes it back to the subject. You get most of the power back in smooth light.

Outdoors - what's there to bounce the light off of. Any light that is not flashing directly at the subject is lost.

Think about it...

And, yes Jeff, I know you've done wonderful work outdoors with the GF LS, but that was in a situation where you weren't pressured to get as much from your AAs as you could.

ChatKat · June 30, 2009

Cpe-4
Canon's battery pack for Flash is the CPE-4 - 8 batteries on board! The Q Flash and Sunpak's also have battery packs (there are others) that give you all the power you can handle. (oh, and weight too)

jeffreaux2 · June 30, 2009

Scott_Quier wrote:

The GF LS is an OK tool INDOORS or if you have lots of battery power to throw away.

Indoors, the light that is thrown everywhere but at the subject is bounced off walls, etc and eventually makes it back to the subject. You get most of the power back in smooth light.

Outdoors - what's there to bounce the light off of. Any light that is not flashing directly at the subject is lost.

Think about it...

And, yes Jeff, I know you've done wonderful work outdoors with the GF LS, but that was in a situation where you weren't pressured to get as much from your AAs as you could.

Nope.....not me

While I have taken....a few(maybe once or twice

) shots outdoors with a fong diffuser I wont tout it here. My opinion of diffusers for fill in daylight outdoors is that they are of no use. I generally either shoot through an umbrella, or use bare flash. In fact, from my experiments, if you point the round end of the fong at your subject and then go portrait mode without a bracket you will experience some really crappy results. And Im basing this not on battery consumption, but on image quality/results. There is NOTHING to be gained by putting a diffuser on a shoe(or bracket) mounted flash outdoors in daylight. Just remember too much fill looks worse than not enough....and power it down.

I use it indoors often and prefer it to the stofen. I like the bare bulb effect.

My advice for fill in daylight.....No diffuser.....aim the flash dead ahead...and use FEC to dial back how much light is contributed. In ETTL mode the power of the flash will still auto adjust depending on distance to subject. Again, you can do this in either AV or M mode.

In manual mode, with the flash also in manual, exposures could drastically change depending on distance to subject. Not a goodness for a first wedding. Keep it simple.

jeffreaux2 · June 30, 2009

Qarik wrote:

Hmm..I never considered keeping it in TTL and dialling down the FEC eqivalent on the nikon speed lights. I suppose that could work.

....and I have never had the need to put a flash in Manual mode...

lisarhinehart · July 1, 2009

I have no clue how to use my 580exII
Thank you everyone for your comments.
Reading them has confirmed for me all the more that I have no idea what I am doing with my 580exII. When I figure that out I will revist them and they will make alot more sense.

Things I did get:
I think the two camera idea is great and using LR I can sync them so that everything will be in order which will work well should I go that route. I was also thinking that the tripod isn't the key player here, so I can wait to buy a better one later. It seems like the fong will do Ok indoors, especially given the tall wooden ceiling (see pics). It looks like outside the flash should be bare and angled slightly up, so that it gets rid of the shadows but doesn't wash things out. I have started setting my LCD to show the histogram and "blinkies" per Zommers suggestion which is helpful and am glad to see it seconded here by Jeff. Shooting from on the porch is a great idea and actually one I didn't think of, thanks.

Some brainy advice was found and read
A comprehensive link was posted on dgrin by pathfinder http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=70330 I have read several articles from it and am in the process of reading flash photography for canon eos cameras at photonotes.org. The photog tries to make it interesting, but in general this stuff goes over my head, paritally b/c I am so new to all this and partly because it is still pretty dry. It seems like articles are meant for people who already know what they are doing and not someone just starting out. I am really looking for a common sense big picture approach.

I would love some basics for beginners and have even thought of getting the video mentioned in pathfinders link. I am just short on time and really needing to figure this out and quickly enough that I can practice a lot. I think I have to get out the ol' manual first despite my attempts to learn in some other more interesting, simple, fun, straight forward or more applicable way.

New to SLR
I just started learning how to use an SLR in the last few months-- I mean "what is AV?" started. I am thinking of ordering the hot shoe diaries and reading my manual in the mean time. I know it isn't rocket science, but I think it can be presented in a pretty complicated manor for someone who is just learning. I believe there are a few underlying principles that guide most uses and a few basic buttons to push to get that to happen-- that is the level I am looking for at this point.

I did experiment a little with backlighting and fill flash with my daughter's barbie doll. The results were not so good. I may post them later.

Settings to use for camera and flash
At this point I'm thinking of using AV outside and unsure of what to use indoors as I am no where near being able to pull off M in any situation (obviously from this post). I hate using flash and feel sad that it sounds like I will need to use so much of it. The key for me is probably going to be a minimalist approach. When I look at wedding shots, my favorites are the ones without flash or the ones that have used do little that it goes unnoticed.

--Lisa

PS: A side note about manual and proper exposure: I still would love to see what the top of the line point and shoot cameras use for all those special settings they use (siloettes on the beach, portraits in night sky, etc.), Not that I would view them as absolutes or anything, but that they would give me a starting point for some of the more creative shots that I see and woudl like to capture.

Scott_Quier · July 1, 2009

I didn't know you could use Lightroom to synchronize the clocks on cameras. I've always used the EOS Utility. Hmmm .... Interesting and something for me to look into.

lisarhinehart · July 1, 2009

LR clock sync

Scott_Quier wrote:

I didn't know you could use Lightroom to synchronize the clocks on cameras. I've always used the EOS Utility. Hmmm .... Interesting and something for me to look into.

I have just heard of this, my LR disc hasn't even come in the mail yet.

Scott_Quier · July 1, 2009

lisarhinehart wrote:

I have just heard of this, my LR disc hasn't even come in the mail yet.

You know you can download LR from Adobe, install it as a trial and then enter the serial number when you finally do get it in the mail. There are no down-sides (that I'm aware of) and you can get started with LR that much sooner.

divamum · July 1, 2009

Lisa -

Have you tried simply using your flash in similar lighting to you expect and seeing what the various setting changes do? Realistically, you just need to know how to dial the FEC on your Rebel XT up and down for various exposure settings and let the ETTL in the flash do the rest.

If you can't get a live model, use a doll or stuffed toy - you don't need great art, just something that will let you see how the light changes according to your adjustments. A doll is ideal simply because it mimcs human skin tones and facial contours. Stick one doll in a white garment and one in black so you really get a feel for the exposures you'll need with those colour extremes.

A few suggestions from one "still learning flash" gal to another:

1. Now, this will probably incense some of the experienced photogs here, but I throw it out as a suggestion which you can use if you need it. Seriously - when all else fails when I'm using fill flash (usually overexposure when I'm trying to add fill in bright light), I putthe camera in P mode and let it figure it out according to my aperture choice, incorporating FEC as necessary and available. This is NOT the optimum method and the shots will not be as controlled or "exactly as I envisioned it" as when I have the time to work through my manual, or Av settings slowly and methodically, but on the occasions where I've simply HAD to have the shot and things were flying at high speed around me, this has saved it for me. Only recommended for "emergencies", but it IS a useful emergency strategy (sorry, More Experienced Folk - I suspect this is sacrilige, but for those less comfortable with their settings, it's an escape route that might allow an important shot to be captured!)

2. Make sure you read up on high speed synch with your flash - it will let you add fill even when you're shooting a wide aperture in bright light (for artistic effect) by allowing you to push your shutter speed higher than the usual flash-synch speed of 200

3. Sometimes when I've metered in Av, but then realised (for instance) that I want more ambient light, I will use those as a basis and then switch to manual. I grab the settings Av gave me, dial those into my manual display and then tweak it to give me more ambient exposure by opening the ap or (more likely) dropping the shutter speed. If necessary I also adjust the FEC until I get the effect I want. The hassle with this is it's hard (impossible) to do fast, but when you're practicing it's a great way to start figuring this out and if you're in similar light to your event, you'll already have some of those settings burned into your brain.

4. Practice adjusting the FEC a lot! It's the quickest way to fine tune the flash, IMO. It's a slight pain in the XT because you can't save it to a menu, but in the 50d you'll have the "my menu" page which makes it easy peasy to get at it fast (the customizable menu page is my absolute favorite feature upgrade from XT to the xsi - it makes ALL the difference in handling for me!)

These are certainly not "purist" solutions and you will for sure be freer artistically when the technical side of things is secure and available to you without having to worry about it, but since you're still learning and getting the shot on the day will, ultimately be WAY more important than "how" you get it, perhaps these seat-of-the-pants suggestions may prove useful in the heat of the moment!

PS You may have seen this article, but the first few items on this page are, IMO, the most general overview of Canon Flash theory, with breakdowns of what the camera is trying to do in each mode. I've found it very useful to read and re-read this before I move on to the bells and whistles.

http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/index2.html

lisarhinehart · July 3, 2009

Thanks for simplifying things. That was actually the direction I was going (see barbie doll refrence in my last post) but I think I was hearing all the lingo and technicalitites needed to perfect the art and thinking I wasn't ready to experiment yet.

I think I will experiment and post some. Just from chimping I can already see some issues coming up. When I transfer pictures from my cf to computer, does it keep data about fec or should I be jotting down the changes I'm making to the fec as I make them? It seems that in elements it just shows "flash fired" or "no flash"-- no specifics. I will ahve lightroom soon. (Scott-- thanks for mentioning about the free on-line trial, but will all these other things I have to learn I'll let it get here when it does)

Bad flash scenario: If I am on AV at a number that will give me the dof I want and fire the flash on ettl and have blurring of the subject, but nice bokeh, color, and light -- I should dial up the fec and sacrifice the color and light or dial up my ap, sacrificing the bokeh/subject isolation I was going for. I could always add a tripod but that won't help me if the subject is moving.

I would say clarity and light are big concerns of mine. I do not want out of focus pictures-- I think that would be the worst thing I could do, aside from not showing up to the wedding itself. Poor lighting would be just about as bad. Thinking of why some of my pics with flash are blurry:
1. Not enough light: It seems that flash that is clouded by the fong and dialed down to look natural is giving me no shadows on the wall, but much worse blurry pictures.
2. Camera Shake: I'm sure this takes finesse and a steady hand-- all this new stuff is heavy for little me with my small hands.
3. Wrong Ap: I am also concerned about having the ap wide open for a close up of the flower girl or something, but then leaving it that way for the ceremony.
4. Focus Point issues: choosing the wrong focus point

Top priority for me is getting clear pictures at this point and getting rid of shadows caused by dappled light, overhead light etc.

--Lisa

PS: I also purchased this new cf card and used it tonight for the first time. When scanning back through my images it says "corrupted data: cannot magnify" for one of my images. That isn't cool. What would you do?

jeffreaux2 · July 3, 2009

Lisa,

There are times when Aperture Priority(AV) is a good choice.

-But be aware.... since your ISO and Aperture are being held constant the Shutter Speed will take the swing of the changes in exposure. Not a good thing...unless you pay super close attention to the shutter speed for each shot and adjust your ISO up when the shutter speed dips below 1/125th or so. Yes, you can hand hold a camera at much lower speeds...and the 17-55 F2.8IS will help with this even more....but your subjects will still move some....so failing to the safe side......1/125 is a good goal to ensure sharpness.....for more or less stationary subjects.

Using Exposure Compensation can get you into even more trouble with regards to the above mentioned scenario....unless you are paying very close attention to your shutter speed.

...and guess what? The cameras meter really doesnt even care about your exposure! It is only looking at the scene....and choosing a middle ground. Middle ground may actually be under exposed....or over exposed.

I see you either have...or are waiting on a 50D. Its a great camera. A good tool. It is equipped with two features of note:

-Highlight Priority, and Auto Lighting Optimizer(

)

-Highlight Priority sounds like a good idea....but wait!!! When you enable it ISO100 as a choice will disappear from the menu. That's because it works by processing the highlights at the next slower ISO than the one you choose....and reserves (or removes from the menu) ISO100 for it's own use. Maybe you are okay with that.....but Id rather have the luxery of ISO100 myself...and watch my own highlights.

...and I still have not determined whether Highlight Priority is actually useful when shooting RAW. It may be a jpeg only trick.

Auto Lighting Optimizer...this is supposed to help boost shadows. Another great idea....but....

For me....it generally creates work in post processing regarding the black point which will tend to go grey with this choice enabled.

I mention these two features because while they might seem like that answer to a photographer's prayers...they really aren't as good as.....

Manual Exposure.

For indoor weddings, receptions, etc it's really the only way to go as the Ambient light in a given setting will not be changing.

Outdoor weddings...may require some shutter speed changes on the fly, but in a 15 minute ceremony...again...the changes in ambient light will not be so fast that you cannot keep up....

In Manual, the histogram is your best friend. In an outdoor wedding situation, the glare may be so bad that you cannot see the photos on your lcd anyway....but you will be able to make out the histogram.

divamum · July 3, 2009

lisarhinehart wrote:

Thanks for simplifying things. That was actually the direction I was going (see barbie doll refrence in my last post) but I think I was hearing all the lingo and technicalitites needed to perfect the art and thinking I wasn't ready to experiment yet.

Lisa -

"ready" to experiment? Of course you are!!

On your own with tons of storage media, there IS no "ready"! Just do it.... and see what happens. For me, this is why shooting digital has allowed me to FINALLY start coming to terms with all of this stuff - in your practice sessions give yourself permission to get it really really REALLY wrong, and you will learn so much faster than trying to memorize it all and then Do It Right. Go out and miss your focus, shoot the wrong settings, take some absolutely HORRIBLY over- and under-exposed pictures, take note of the settings and you'll find it a wonderful adjunct to the theoretical study you're undertaking. With digital, there's no harm and no cost - all you have to do is press delete and you're back to square one. Much better to do this now than wind up with a bunch of tossers from the wedding itself

When I transfer pictures from my cf to computer, does it keep data about fec or should I be jotting down the changes I'm making to the fec as I make them? It seems that in elements it just shows "flash fired" or "no flash"-- no specifics. I will ahve lightroom soon.

No, FEC is not included in any exif that I've seen to date (I use LR and CS3), so yes, by all means jot it down. When I'm practicing, I'll sometimes even include an index card in one of any given series that states the settings as I work through. I try only to change ONE thing in each series, and I work through in order so I can assess the shots afterwards. For instance I'll set my ap/shutter and then work through FEC -2, -1, 0, 1, 2 and always use the same order for each ap/shutter change I make, so that I remember what I did when I look at the shots in series. Or I'll set my FEC at one level and then adjust aperture/exposure etc and take note of those settigs so I can assess the results.

Bad flash scenario: If I am on AV at a number that will give me the dof I want and fire the flash on ettl and have blurring of the subject but nice bokeh, color, and light -- I should dial up the fec and sacrifice the color and light or dial up my ap, sacrificing the bokeh/subject isolation I was going for. I could always add a tripod but that won't help me if the subject is moving.

Flash exposure comp ONLY changes the output of the flash, NOT the exposure itself (which is why it's really useful). So if F4 @ 1/100 is giving you a great background exposure but with the FEC at 0 (no adjustment) it looks "flashy", just dial down the FEC and it will subtract the amount of flash *without changing the exposure itself*. Similarly, if at 0 everybody looks underexposed, dial the FEC up. The beauty of it is that it leaves your basic exposure as-is and ONLY changes the flash output.

Btw, you're extremely unlikely to get blurring from camera shake when using flash at the synch speed (1/200), and even if you drop the shutter down a little intentionally to capture more ambient light, the speed of the flash will "freeze" the motion for the millisecond it flashes anyway and mask minor camera shake. This isn't going to be true if your shutter is superslow, but you do get a bit more leeway than when handholding. Here's a really good article about using a slower shutter speed while flashing (he's "dragging the shutter" for artistic effect, but there are some real nuggets of basic technical information of value to us n00bs in there too! http://www.planetneil.com/tangents/flash-photography-techniques/3-dragging-the-shutter/. It's a great website, if you haven't become acquainted with it yet....)

lisarhinehart · July 8, 2009

My new gear has arrived!
Thank you so much for going out of your way to make complex things more simple for me. I'm starting to get it, a little at a time.

It was my intention to post my flash experiment tonight but I am too tired. I do have enough energy to share about something less tedious...

My 50D came and I am able to get more consistantly good results and am loving how well everything works together-- my range of lenses and the speedlight, it's really nice. I really appreciate all the advice from d-grin on the purchases. I am excited to see how much better I will be able to handle this wedding with the proper gear.

I just got it, but here are a few shots. I first started using my new lenses and then experimented with ISO a bit. I did a little something with exposure, and finally tried a little flash, but I'm still getting poor (overly exposed) results with that. But thanks to DM, Jeff and the others teaching me-- at least I am getting it more than before. I'm finding that -1 with a cloud indoors is my best bet or -1 bare pointing up at subject works OK, too. I have been chimping and adjusting beyond that.

1. My 17-55 is capable of so much more on the 50D-- no flash, f2.8, ISO 400... I love the 50D ISO. This shot is of my daughter catching lightning bugs.

2. I moved indoors for this one but utilized 1.4 on my new lens, bumping up my ISO to 800 here and using the natural window light

3. I took two shots back to back, exposing one for the people and the other for the fireworks.
Fireworks:

4. People: This is the one i love

I have a lot more, but don't want to get too off topic. I do have some that utlize the flash as well. I still hate flash, but it doeesn't look as bad as it did. I think the key is still letting in the ambient light (nice article DM)

My next post with be my backlit flash experiment. I tried to make it as fun as possible... wait until you see the happy couple

Scott_Quier · July 8, 2009

Oh yeah - looks like it's starting to come together for you!

The last one - the fireworks ... really cool. You could do an exposure blending with these two and make a really cool picture. But, I would drop the exposure of the second about a stop or so in doing this.

MA-FOTO · July 8, 2009

+1 to Scott's comments.

cool to see your progress.

Nice shots.....

Another little side note w/ the 50D.
If you find yourself shooting w/ available light and no flash....
Go and push ISO to 1600 or higher.
Better to have a shot and noisy than nothing at all.
The noise here is not that bad - really.

If you have to chose, better to have correct exposure + Higher ISO then under-expose and lower ISO.
You will see more noise in an under exposed shot at a lower ISO than a properly exposed shot at a higher ISO (in reference to ISO above 1600)

I also have noiseware to clean up the chroma noise (50D more sensitive to chroma).
It does a nice job. it is not the only software - so look around.

If you have any questions about camera setup - let us know....
things like Micro-adjust, battery power management (especially w/ out grip)...

Later,
_Mark

Help!!!!! Location for my first wedding

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