Questions

Shark

I sold some photos from a softball game that I shot recently. A couple of the photos that sold were already edited and cropped by me before I put them on SmugMug. When I do that, I always make sure that the photos can be printed in either 4x6, 5x7, and 8x10 sizes before I upload to my site. For this sale, when I go look to see what the customer has purchased from me, I noticed that I am being instructed to crop some of the photos, that I've already done that to, before they are printed. When I click "none" for the cropping choice, the photo reverts to where there is white around parts of the border. I'm a little confused because, as I said, when I edit my photos, I make sure the sizes I mentioned earlier can be printed from them before I put the photos on the site. I'm afraid if I go with the crop that is suggested, parts of the players body will be eliminated from the finished product. Do you think I shouldn't edit and crop my photos before I put them on my site? I do that so people can see the difference between a photo straight from the camera, and the same photo cropped and edited. I don't want to screw this order up, so I'm looking for some input from seasoned veterans in the sales department. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.

Shark

jfriend

Do you understand that the same image can't print a 4x6, 5x7 and 8x10 without further cropping on two of the three sizes? Those three sizes are simply all different aspect ratios so if you want a full size print, something has to get cropped on the two sizes that don't match the aspect ratio of your image (or all three sizes if none match the aspect ratio of your image).

What I would do in your case is prepare a new original that has enough room in it to crop a good image for all three sizes. Then upload that using Proof Delay. Then, set the crop in the order appropriately for all three sizes and the customer will get the exact print you want.

Because the 8x10 is so much more square than the 4x6, you will typically have to leave a bunch of extra room on the long edge of the 4x6. While this is adjusted at crop time in a print order so the customer gets the ideal result, it does not always represent the ideal screen display because the image will be less cropped than it could be on screen.

There is no way around that on Smugmug. There are some services that let you upload separate images for separate print sizes - that's one way around it. Another potential solution would be to allow us to upload a master image that was loosely cropped and then us pre-specify just the crop for each major aspect ratio and for screen display and have Smugmug apply the appropriate pre-crop at print time or display time.

SteveM

Shark wrote:

I sold some photos from a softball game that I shot recently. A couple of the photos that sold were already edited and cropped by me before I put them on SmugMug. When I do that, I always make sure that the photos can be printed in either 4x6, 5x7, and 8x10 sizes before I upload to my site. For this sale, when I go look to see what the customer has purchased from me, I noticed that I am being instructed to crop some of the photos, that I've already done that to, before they are printed. When I click "none" for the cropping choice, the photo reverts to where there is white around parts of the border. I'm a little confused because, as I said, when I edit my photos, I make sure the sizes I mentioned earlier can be printed from them before I put the photos on the site. I'm afraid if I go with the crop that is suggested, parts of the players body will be eliminated from the finished product. Do you think I shouldn't edit and crop my photos before I put them on my site? I do that so people can see the difference between a photo straight from the camera, and the same photo cropped and edited. I don't want to screw this order up, so I'm looking for some input from seasoned veterans in the sales department. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.

Shark

Hi Shark,

I'm Steve, one of the image specialists here at SmugMug as well as a working pro like you. Pre-cropping before uploading is a slippery slope, and needs to be done with lots of care. Of course, there's no anticipating for every size conceivable (such as square prints), so the best option is to upload your full sized images. Some slight cropping/straightening is fine, but it's imperitive to anticipate at least 4x6, 5x7 and 8x10s being ordered from the same image. I've had a look at your recent pro order, and with the way the original is cropped, there is no way to accommodate all the print sizes.

Take items #7 and #8 for example, of filename 1098. Ordered as a 4x6, great. Ordered as a 5x7 it's extremely tight, and a frame or matting will likely obscure part of both the player's hand and ball, and feet. And don't forget about bleed-trim tolerance at the lab:
http://www.smugmug.com/help/bleed-trim

As an 8x10, there is no way to keep from sacrificing either the hand and ball or the feet. It simply won't fit on 8x10 paper.

There are three options to prepare this order to ship:

1) Use the no-crop option, by choosing Crop: None, which will place white borders on two sides of the image kind of like movie letterboxing. This will preserve the entire image, but with the white borders printing. Some customers don't care for this.

2) You can adjust the cropping yourself, and choose which parts of the image to lose.

3) You can use the Replace Photo button, and replace the image with the original, uncropped image if it has more generous head/foot room, then adjust the crops again before hitting the "Ship It!" button.

Check out http://blogs.smugmug.com/pros/2008/12/12/please-leave-room-for-customer-cropping/ as well. Here's how that image will crop in all three sizes:



For the final 4x6 and 5x7 crops, you can always crop in more in the cart to lose some of the unneeded room, but if you do this pre-upload, you can never GAIN headroom for the 8x10.

Tips: 1) Be sure to leave lots of head and foot room, not only when cropping in post, but most important during composing the frame during shooting. 2) Continue to use Proof Delay, so you have the chance to Replace Photo, or as a last resort, clone in some extra background to accommodate other print sizes in a pinch.

I hope this helps!

Shark

I appreciate the help, but I'm still confused. The second photo - IMG_1107 is straight off the camera. I did nothing to that except upload to my site. But when I click "none" for cropping, white appears on both sides of the photo.
Also, where it tells me to crop, the sample that is put on, shows where the cropping is to be done. If let go that way, does that mean it will print without cutting any body parts off?
Everything seemed perfect when I ordered a bunch of shots of one of my photos way back in the beginning, because I wanted to see how they would come out. I have a feeling this order is gonna get messed up.

Shark

I have my first real SmugMug sale, and after alot of recropping and editing, I think they are ready to print and ship, but I am asking one of the seasoned veterans of sales if they could possibly look at the order to give me an opinion if they will print alright. Any help, once again, would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.

Shark

Phyxius

Shark wrote:

I have my first real SmugMug sale, and after alot of recropping and editing, I think they are ready to print and ship, but I am asking one of the seasoned veterans of sales if they could possibly look at the order to give me an opinion if they will print alright. Any help, once again, would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.

Shark

Hi Shark!

Remember me? I'm a support hero here now and I just checked your order. The crops all look good! I'd say you're good to hit the ship button.

- Christina

Shark

Phyxius wrote:

Hi Shark!

Remember me? I'm a support hero here now and I just checked your order. The crops all look good! I'd say you're good to hit the ship button.

- Christina

Yes I do remember you. You helped me out tremendously in the past when I had questions.
I really appreciate you looking at my order, and giving me your input. I will now give it the once over again, and send it on it's way.
Thanks.

Shark

johng

Shark wrote:

I appreciate the help, but I'm still confused. The second photo - IMG_1107 is straight off the camera. I did nothing to that except upload to my site. But when I click "none" for cropping, white appears on both sides of the photo.
Also, where it tells me to crop, the sample that is put on, shows where the cropping is to be done. If let go that way, does that mean it will print without cutting any body parts off?

If support hasn't explained this off the boards I'll take my cut at it. This all has to do with "aspect ratio" (ratio of long side to short side). Strait out of your camera, the photo is likely formatted to a 4x6 aspect ratio. So, a 4x6, 8x12, 16x24 print would all require no cropping because the aspect ratio 2x3 is the same for all print sizes.

When you print to a size with a diffe6rent aspect ratio (4x5 say - which is used in an 8x10) you have a problem. In an 8x10 print, if you keep the 'short' part of the image the same you can't fit as much of the long side of the image on the paper. So, you have a couple choices - either crop off the 'long side' so you get all of the 'short side' on the paper OR keep all the long side of the image on the paper and end up with not enough image on the 'short side' to fill the paper.

That's what you're seeing when you turn the 'crop' option off - the white that represents photo paper with no image over it.

One other thing to remember - when you look at the final image, you need to realize there is what is called 'bleed' The final print will actually have a little bit on all edges cut off. So if you had a foot touching the edge of the image then in the final print there would be a tiny portion of the foot cut off. You should also realize that when people frame shots there is often matting. So, the bottom line is this: while you want your sports images to be TIGHT you still need to leave room for cropping down to 8x10 (i.e. leave room on the long end of the image) plus room for the bleed and for matting.

Another point to realize - the automatic crop tool will crop from the center - so it will take as much from the 'top' as it will from the 'bottom'. Some customers are savy enough to adjust the image - some aren't. Use the proof delay to correct that bad crop of theirs.

Shark

johng wrote:

If support hasn't explained this off the boards I'll take my cut at it. This all has to do with "aspect ratio" (ratio of long side to short side). Strait out of your camera, the photo is likely formatted to a 4x6 aspect ratio. So, a 4x6, 8x12, 16x24 print would all require no cropping because the aspect ratio 2x3 is the same for all print sizes.

When you print to a size with a diffe6rent aspect ratio (4x5 say - which is used in an 8x10) you have a problem. In an 8x10 print, if you keep the 'short' part of the image the same you can't fit as much of the long side of the image on the paper. So, you have a couple choices - either crop off the 'long side' so you get all of the 'short side' on the paper OR keep all the long side of the image on the paper and end up with not enough image on the 'short side' to fill the paper.

That's what you're seeing when you turn the 'crop' option off - the white that represents photo paper with no image over it.

One other thing to remember - when you look at the final image, you need to realize there is what is called 'bleed' The final print will actually have a little bit on all edges cut off. So if you had a foot touching the edge of the image then in the final print there would be a tiny portion of the foot cut off. You should also realize that when people frame shots there is often matting. So, the bottom line is this: while you want your sports images to be TIGHT you still need to leave room for cropping down to 8x10 (i.e. leave room on the long end of the image) plus room for the bleed and for matting.

Another point to realize - the automatic crop tool will crop from the center - so it will take as much from the 'top' as it will from the 'bottom'. Some customers are savy enough to adjust the image - some aren't. Use the proof delay to correct that bad crop of theirs.

Thanks. I've been printing my own photos for sales for the last five years, so I never had a problem with this before. I don't know why. I do mat many of the photos I sell, so maybe I was able to get around some of the 8x10 issues by printing full sheets. But there were many times that I had no problems with 8x10's. I just hope that this batch going out to my customer, comes out ok and they are satisfied. I will have to pay a little closer attention to this from now on.
Thanks for your help. I will probably be returning to read your post again in the future if I need to.

Shark