What has Sport Shooter done for you?

beetle8 · June 30, 2009

About two years ago I did a little research into sportshooter, thought I'd be interested in the forums, but at the time Dgrin's sports thread was hot with a lot of talent. I put it off, then revisited it, someone told me to forget it because if you didn't have a sponsor or you weren't shooting for ESPN already then you couldn't get in.
2 weeks ago I ended up on another shooters page wandering around and ended up at sportshooter again. I decided I was going to get the info and put in an aplication, but then I started wandering around the site and it seems as though they have lowered their rigorous standards from where they were before, as mentioned in another thread here on Dgrin.
So my question is, now that the prestige is gone, what does being a SportShooter member do for you?
$25 a year for an online gallery and posting privledges to the forum?

Zanotti · June 30, 2009

It was always a bit of a goal of mine to "join" or be accepted at Sportsshooter. The rigorous process, plus the expected nominating process made joining almost impossible.

I have seen many people's images here, along with my own shots, exceeding much of what I saw on Sportsshooter - my interest waned a bit.

I had not seen that they were accepting members based upon $25 only, but I do enjoy reading the forum. I often want to reply, but more to add then ask, so the new value is low.

Z

beetle8 · June 30, 2009

The post I was referring to is in this thread... http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=135389

Toshido · June 30, 2009

The only advantage I could see to it would be the buy and sell area. Seems like they give some good deals to each other, more importantly it seems they try to keep the freelance stuff they find "inhouse", so to speak.

I was interested in getting in as well. But interest is waning FAST.

ian408 · July 1, 2009

I'm not a member. But things I see are the ability to look for work, forum posting (closed to non-members), some peer review, the sportsshooter academy seems like a place to get some good information.

There's a lot of good information on the site. Much of it available to non-members.

There are a couple of regular poster here who are members, maybe they'll chime in as I'm sure there are other benefits.

tjk60 · July 1, 2009

What is it that you want SS to do for you?

I've gotten a few jobs thru it, gained knowledge from the site and its members. Met a few cool 'togs...

I find it funny about them lowering their standards. This always gets a mention. Do not confuse the standards needed to be accepted with the standards that many sports togs post just to keep a current page. There is no 'after-acceptance' policing of a member site.

Again, what is it that you'd like SS to do for you?

johng · July 1, 2009

OK,
Here's my take:

On the 'quality' issue. Let's face it - in any organization you're always going to have longer-term members who think the 'new blood' isn't up to snuff. And, as with many things, photographers (members and non members) often have a higher opinion of their own work than others do.

In reality, there have probably always been a good portio of the membership who were capable of putting together a good portfolio but their day-to-day images aren't top notch. A lot of that comes from the day-to-day work not NEEDING to be top notch and them not getting pushed harder to do better.

Are there non-members who demonstrate better work than members? You bet! But it's like anything else - you can't win if you don't play. You can't get the job if you don't interview. You can't succeed (or fail) if you don't even try. The biggest difference between members and non-members is the members actually TRIED.

OK - that asside: what has sportsshooter done for me? The truth is - not much. But that's as much my 'fault' as anything else. Since I joined, other aspects of my life have greatly diminished the time I can spend shooting sports. Without regular time to dedicate it's tough to make a business or career grow. I will say, I have gotten some great information from experienced full-time pros when I've looked for business or equipment advice.

I've also talked to a number of shooters who have dropped their membership due to the attitudes displayed on the message board there and no longer wanting to be associated with it.

My personal opinion is that the PROCESS of gaining membership can be a very positive experience in that you are 'upping' the level of critique. Selecting 10 images from 10s of thousands, providing good captioning and having a sponsor (or multiple members) critique your work will make you a better photographer. Now, the official critique is just a 'yes' or 'no' - you don't get feedback. So, it's the feedback you get BEFORE submitting that will make you better. And here's the part that is a tough pill to swallow: Get over the fact that you might be a better photog than the person giving you feedback. If you were working for a paper do you think the photo editor is a better photog than all the staff? Is the parent buying your prints from a game a better photog? Not likely. Take the feedback, put your ego asside and ask yourself if the feedback makes sense. Almost everyone who posts here can improve - sportsshooter members included. The process of improving to get into sportsshooter and trying to improve your work to where YOU and your sponsor thinks its great is what will pay dividends.

After you're in? Who knows. I've discussed what sportsshooter provides it's members with about 10 other members and results are mixed. For some it has provided work. For others, like me - some good info. But there are other photogs (and some who have worked as AP stringers and shot pro events) who haven't gained anything from it. I can tell you though - if you think it's a magic club and membership will bring you new jobs / revenue / contacts with you doing exactly the same thing you're doing today - you are mistaken. Just my opinion.

ian408 · July 1, 2009

Tim, John. Thanks for your input.

KMCC · July 1, 2009

I think JohnG has provided a very good summary of the benefits of SportsShooter membership. I'm not sure that I can expand on it.

I will say that in my case, I have received assignments (that I otherwise would not have been considered for) as a result of being a member.

The decision to apply for membership in any organization is appropriately left up to each individual based on what they expect membership will provide to them.

If I was not a member, would I consider applying today? Absolutely.

Dbl · July 1, 2009

I think JohnG summed it up well but I am curious why you seem to think,

I started wandering around the site and it seems as though they have lowered their rigorous standards from where they were before, as mentioned in another thread here on Dgrin.
So my question is, now that the prestige is gone, what does being a SportShooter member do for you?

the prestige is gone? Are you basing that on a few member pages?

My SS site hasn't been updated with images for a few years. My fault but I've honestly been not that concerned with it. It is a portfolio for potential employer's to look at, and I've gotten a few jobs through the site but it has not been high on priority of things to do. I like some of the member feature's, "the guide" being one. The buy sell area and the ability to ask a question gear specific and have others in many cases using that equipment daily, respond almost immediately.

John brings up a valid point about trying to get in. I've seen many posts on a number of different sports forums about joining. It always seems there are folks who complain the standards are down, why join? Usually it is from those that have been rejected or haven't decided to put their work in front of their peers for review.

SS asks you why do you want to join? What are you looking for out your membership? Part of the process of improving as a photographer is the ability to self critique your own work with a critical eye. One way to develop that ability is to have others that are peers give you feedback on your work. That is not for everyone, we often would prefer that everyone loved our images. Its called human nature. John is correct, learning to cull through images that will be portfolio worthy, working with a "sponsor" to help review those shots can give you a fresh perspective on your own progress as a photographer. It also can be an ego check when work that you feel is strong is rejected. Are you ready to subject yourself to that level of review?

Many of the photographers that post here would likely not benefit one bit from a SS membership. They shoot photos for their own enjoyment and for the thrill of capturing a moment often times of their own family and are just happy to share that moment here. What would joining SS do for them, likely nothing. We are all at different levels in what we want out of our work. Are you constantly pushing your ability, looking for new ways to keep your perspective fresh, looking to push your work in front of potential employers. It is possible SS may have something for you. So again I ask, what are you looking for out of a membership to SS? Answer that and you will be one step closer to deciding whether joining will be something that makes sense for you.

mercphoto · July 1, 2009

I used to be a Sports Shooter member. I don't believe I ever took full enough advantage of my membership. One positive thing it did for me was it got me in touch with a local youth sports photographer. I do think that since I was an accepted Sports Shooter member it made him look more closely at me, helped him decide to hire me as an extra shooter. He was also an SS member, I was an SS member, so some amount of vetting had been done of me. My youth football photography needed serious work, but since I had been accepted as an SS member that said something for me. (alas I learned I found shooting football to be very boring, but that's besides the point!).

But I quit my membership because I wasn't getting much from it anymore, and frankly wasn't trying to get much from it. I'm more into cars than sports anyway, and found another avenue for that type of work.

wilsonjg · July 1, 2009

...Looks like it was my original threat that got Beetle8's mind turning on this thread...

I am going to submit photos to SportsShooter and I was asking for a little constructive criticism from members that viewed Dgrin...

My interest in SportsShooter is for member information, tips and tricks, for the "buy and sell" page, for the possiblity of offers or at least having someone view my work via the SportsShooter page.

I have several fellow shooters that value their memberships and one or two that haven't used the page much since joining. Looks to me like you sort of get out of it what you put into it...

We will see if I use the membership well or not....but all that is still dependant of my acceptance ...

beetle8 · July 1, 2009

Dbl wrote:

I think JohnG summed it up well but I am curious why you seem to think,
the prestige is gone? Are you basing that on a few member pages?

My SS site hasn't been updated with images for a few years. My fault but I've honestly been not that concerned with it. It is a portfolio for potential employer's to look at, and I've gotten a few jobs through the site but it has not been high on priority of things to do. I like some of the member feature's, "the guide" being one. The buy sell area and the ability to ask a question gear specific and have others in many cases using that equipment daily, respond almost immediately.

John brings up a valid point about trying to get in. I've seen many posts on a number of different sports forums about joining. It always seems there are folks who complain the standards are down, why join? Usually it is from those that have been rejected or haven't decided to put their work in front of their peers for review.

SS asks you why do you want to join? What are you looking for out your membership? Part of the process of improving as a photographer is the ability to self critique your own work with a critical eye. One way to develop that ability is to have others that are peers give you feedback on your work. That is not for everyone, we often would prefer that everyone loved our images. Its called human nature. John is correct, learning to cull through images that will be portfolio worthy, working with a "sponsor" to help review those shots can give you a fresh perspective on your own progress as a photographer. It also can be an ego check when work that you feel is strong is rejected. Are you ready to subject yourself to that level of review?

Many of the photographers that post here would likely not benefit one bit from a SS membership. They shoot photos for their own enjoyment and for the thrill of capturing a moment often times of their own family and are just happy to share that moment here. What would joining SS do for them, likely nothing. We are all at different levels in what we want out of our work. Are you constantly pushing your ability, looking for new ways to keep your perspective fresh, looking to push your work in front of potential employers. It is possible SS may have something for you. So again I ask, what are you looking for out of a membership to SS? Answer that and you will be one step closer to deciding whether joining will be something that makes sense for you.

The prestige thing is a personal opinion, based on coments I have read. Related to the pages I have perused, My initial reaction was gathered a few week ago from the new members section on the right that lists a few of the more recent members. 2 of the ones that I viewed that day were less than stellar, in fact one was just eh. I have however been their on days where that section is filled with spectacular shots.
I thrive on critique personal, peer, and professional. I have not aplied for a membership with SS so my hesitation is not due to fear of rejection, and my original coment on prestige is not in retaliation of rejection.

To answer your question, what do I want from SS? Prestige, I would want to fear that my aplications would be met with rejection, I want to hear stories about countless people who get rejected all the time because their work is not up to the obnoxiously high standards that SS demands. That is what I want, I would want to stay up nights worrying whether or not I picked the right shots for my aplication, whether I was good enough to join the amazing photogs that already held the card.
Then being a member of SS, potetial clients wouldn't have to question whether I was a good sports photographer, they would know, I would display the medalion on my website and other marketing materials with pride.
If however as stated in the refered post and has been heard before, and has been reflected in some of the initialy submitted portfolios, "eh don't worry as long as you've got good captions you'll be all set"... then I'm all set with a membership.
It's why I asked the original question, I can read the forums and access quite a bit of the site as a non member. I wanted to know what there was that I wasn't taking into consideration, if anything.
But I seem to have got more defensive responses, probably a result of my poor wording skills.
I conduct and partake in multiple events open to photographers of all skill sets. We freely learn from eachother via critique, and knowledge sharing, so I completely agree with the statement that you need to be willing and able to accept critique and knowledge from photographers who may be at a level below your personal skill set, there is far too much knowledge to assume you can not learn something from someone.

johng · July 1, 2009

beetle8 wrote:

To answer your question, what do I want from SS? Prestige, I would want to fear that my aplications would be met with rejection, I want to hear stories about countless people who get rejected all the time because their work is not up to the obnoxiously high standards that SS demands. That is what I want, I would want to stay up nights worrying whether or not I picked the right shots for my aplication, whether I was good enough to join the amazing photogs that already held the card.
Then being a member of SS, potetial clients wouldn't have to question whether I was a good sports photographer, they would know, I would display the medalion on my website and other marketing materials with pride.

Keith, I honestly can't imagine a potential client making a decision based upon a sportsshooter logo. Your body of work, your work experience, and your references will speak for themselves. As will how you present yourself on the phone and in person. Again, I think you're mistaken if you think the logo on your site is going to swing business your way. Many potential clients simply won't have a clue what sportsshooter is so they'll be completely unimpressed by it.

As far as prestige? Again, I think you're expecting too much. There's some of that - again mostly in photography forums, not so much in real life. Many of the newsprint photogs around me aren't members and they're quite good shooters. Again, in my opinion, it was a nice personal accomplishment, but the rest of the world outside photography forums won't put a lot of stock in it. The EXCEPTION is, as has been pointed out, potential work with other sportsshooter members. Your membership would likely have them look at your work with a more positive going-in impression but at the end of the day you'll still be judged on your sport-specific portfolio and experience. Again, just one man's opinion.

beetle8 · July 1, 2009

Thanks John,

No I would't expect the SS logo to mean much outside the circle.

I didn't mean to suggest that the gathering of the title would bring the heards. Instead to suggest that someone within that circle like perhaps a photo editor may take piece of mind in seeing it. Yet if it doesn't reach that level than it doesn't reach that level.
Outside of Dgrin I have only had discussion with two other shooters related to SS. One is a well acomplished and published photog, I was talking with him on a particular topic and he referenced a post in the SS forum. As soon as I heard this I asked him about his membership and he replied that he was infact not a member. The other is a great freelance sports guy that was contributing to Getty when I had this conversation, at the time he was an SS member, when I asked about it, he mentioned the forums, I noticed a while back that he is no longer a member.
I pay $100 a year to be a member of NAPP and I can list quite a few reasons why it is worth it to me, and how about the PPA $350 a year, lots of reasons, I guess that's what I was looking for.
I have a landscaper friend who is a member of everything you can imagine and quite literally all he gets out of most of them is the ability to put their logo on his website, he says it makes people feel comfortable, and I believe there is a level of truth to that.

winger · July 2, 2009

Dbl wrote:

Part of the process of improving as a photographer is the ability to self critique your own work with a critical eye. One way to develop that ability is to have others that are peers give you feedback on your work. That is not for everyone, we often would prefer that everyone loved our images. Its called human nature. John is correct, learning to cull through images that will be portfolio worthy, working with a "sponsor" to help review those shots can give you a fresh perspective on your own progress as a photographer. It also can be an ego check when work that you feel is strong is rejected. Are you ready to subject yourself to that level of review?

Having worked with a couple of people to get them in, I would like to think the process of getting feedback from sponsor is far more helpful than just being rejected blankly by SS (like I was). That way you have a strong body of work when you present it to SS and you get right in (at least all my sponsored shooters did).

The first time I applied (it was before sponsors) I was rejects, but never told why. Then I applied again with a sponsor, and got right in. In the end the process of learning to evaluate my photography is proably what changed most.

beetle8 wrote:

I pay $100 a year to be a member of NAPP and I can list quite a few reasons why it is worth it to me, and how about the PPA $350 a year, lots of reasons, I guess that's what I was looking for.

Bottom line, it is a resource and an inexpensive one at that, and it isnt going to do much for you if you dont use it.

To be honest I dont think any of my sports work has ever come from there, it has all been word of mouth. I have oddly enough got wedding requests from there....

Also I do like the presentation of the site personally, I feel like it is a clean, quick way to find photographers and their work, so I have actually used it find contacts (like trying to build a goal cam). And there are some FANTASTIC photographers on there, and it is so easy to view their work on the site. Can you do that for free...certainly.

What has Sport Shooter done for you?

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