advice please

manfred · July 3, 2009

Hi all – after some advice and guidance!! I am taking pictures at my first official wedding on the 1<SUP>st</SUP> of August in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on">Blackpool</st1:place>. I have already visited the hotel where the service will take place – and the reception – and have also visited the outside area that the bride wants the majority of the pictures taken at.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
My problem – the service will be held in a long, thin, low ceiling room with no real light. I have already warned the bride that all pictures in the room will have to be taken with flash.<o:p></o:p>
Apart from my 580ex I also have some studio lights and a couple of umbrellas. I was thinking that I could use the 580ex and the white brolly to bounce the flash and direct it with the brolly onto the subjects. I do not think that I am going to find a similar room to practice this on and I am not going to get the time on the day.<o:p></o:p>
Any and all advice will be greatly appreciated.<o:p></o:p>
Thanks in advance.<o:p></o:p>
dave<o:p></o:p>

sweet caroline · July 3, 2009

I would think an umbrella would be disruptive during the ceremony. Maybe bounce the flash off the ceiling instead. I haven't been allowed flash during a ceremony, so I've had to rely on open aperture and higher ISO.

I'm sure you'll get more suggestions:)

Caroline

jeffreaux2 · July 3, 2009

I shot an entire ceremony once with a single 580 mounted on my "monopod with feet" and fired via STE2. As the ceremony wound up, I retracted the legs making it a "light on a stick".

A brief description of the "light on a stick" is here:
http://www.dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=992414&postcount=13

This venue had the same dark colored floors, walls, and ceiling that provided nothing to bounce light from....and it was dimly lit as well.

manfred · July 5, 2009

jeff, caroline - thanks for the responses.

i had intended to use bounce flash and thought the brolly would help direct it - maybe i should just find some white card to help fill in.

i'll have a look at the flash on a stick and see if i can use it.

once again thanks for the responses

dave

Matthew Saville · July 5, 2009

Honesty, I'd just feel better shooting a 5D mk2 and an f/1.2 prime. That should do the trick in ANY lighting condition. If it's light enough for people to see what they're doing, it's light enough for f/1.2 and ISO 6400.

But of course if you can do it discretely, Jeff's photos look GORGEOUS...

=Matt=

jeffreaux2 · July 5, 2009

Matthew Saville wrote:

Honesty, I'd just feel better shooting a 5D mk2 and an f/1.2 prime. That should do the trick in ANY lighting condition. If it's light enough for people to see what they're doing, it's light enough for f/1.2 and ISO 6400.

But of course if you can do it discretely, Jeff's photos look GORGEOUS...

=Matt=

True....if existing light is possible....you can hardly go wrong.

..and thanks Matt

Scott_Quier · July 5, 2009

Matthew Saville wrote:

But of course if you can do it discretely, Jeff's photos look GORGEOUS...
=Matt=

- these are stunning!

Jeff - what modifier, if any, did you use on those shots? Was it the GF LS?

jeffreaux2 · July 5, 2009

Scott_Quier wrote:

- these are stunning!

Jeff - what modifier, if any, did you use on those shots? Was it the GF LS?

Yes, Gary Fong Light Sphere...the "cloud" version....with the lid on except the last one(no lid).

This was a "freebie" wedding, my second ever, and at the time I didn't own a "real" lightstand. I also only had a single flash and an STE2. The results would have been much better with the 13' stand that I have now......and better yet with a pair of flashes(for the ceremony) and some ratio lighting. Woulda coulda...shoulda......but I was on a shoestring and made what was in my bag work. My monopod has a set of James Bond screw in legs that came in handy for this. Unfortunately it is only about 6 feet high fully extended.

lilmomma · July 5, 2009

Matthew Saville wrote:

Honesty, I'd just feel better shooting a 5D mk2 and an f/1.2 prime. That should do the trick in ANY lighting condition. If it's light enough for people to see what they're doing, it's light enough for f/1.2 and ISO 6400.

Not to be rude (and I apologize if I am missing something here) but I don't think that was really useful advice for him. I am not the OP but I am pretty sure that he would feel better about shooting with that setup as well, but am also pretty sure that for a first time wedding he probably is not making near the $4000 + that it would cost him to obtain the setup. Us "little-ton's" have to start somewhere, and maybe someday we will have the best of the best equipment... until then, manfred, rock on with your 40D and good luck!

Jeff those photos are gorgeous!

manfred · July 10, 2009

hi lilmomma - i think you'r right - i'm certainly not getting paid a great deal for this, offset by gaining experience !!! so... maybe get there a day early and see what i can get in the way of practice at the same time of day if the hotel will let me.

if the bride and groom allow it i will try to post some pictures.

thanks

dave

Matthew Saville · July 12, 2009

lilmomma wrote:

Not to be rude (and I apologize if I am missing something here) but I don't think that was really useful advice for him. I am not the OP but I am pretty sure that he would feel better about shooting with that setup as well, but am also pretty sure that for a first time wedding he probably is not making near the $4000 + that it would cost him to obtain the setup. Us "little-ton's" have to start somewhere, and maybe someday we will have the best of the best equipment... until then, manfred, rock on with your 40D and good luck!

Indeed, but I just felt there was a need to counter-balance just how geeky it was getting with the flash advice. It was starting to sound like flash was the only option, AND the best, optimal choice. When in the real world, I do everything within my power to avoid having to use flash.

It is my main goal to get wedding photos done as quickly as possible, and to do everything without extra equipment setup if possible. But that mostly pertains to portraits, and my addiction to finding soft, flattering light... During a reception, yeah a lot of the time the light is just too dark and if you don't have the right lens or body, just rock that flash and don't think twice! If the ceiling is low enough and you can get your bounce angles right, flash looks beautiful and I have nothing against it.

However, I'd still rather *try* to get away without flash if I could. And a 5D mk2 + 50 1.2 might be out of an amateur's price range, but maybe a used 5D and a 50 1.4? 1.8? I rock a D300 and 1.4 / 1.8 glass regularly, and it often lets me get away without using flash, no next-generation FX sensor required!

=Matt=

lilmomma · July 13, 2009

Matthew Saville wrote:

Indeed, but I just felt there was a need to counter-balance just how geeky it was getting with the flash advice. It was starting to sound like flash was the only option, AND the best, optimal choice. When in the real world, I do everything within my power to avoid having to use flash.

It is my main goal to get wedding photos done as quickly as possible, and to do everything without extra equipment setup if possible. But that mostly pertains to portraits, and my addiction to finding soft, flattering light... During a reception, yeah a lot of the time the light is just too dark and if you don't have the right lens or body, just rock that flash and don't think twice! If the ceiling is low enough and you can get your bounce angles right, flash looks beautiful and I have nothing against it.

However, I'd still rather *try* to get away without flash if I could. And a 5D mk2 + 50 1.2 might be out of an amateur's price range, but maybe a used 5D and a 50 1.4? 1.8? I rock a D300 and 1.4 / 1.8 glass regularly, and it often lets me get away without using flash, no next-generation FX sensor required!

=Matt=

Matt,

I don't think there is a single wedding shooter who prefers flash over natural light. That being said, I think his question was more of "what's the best way to use what I have?" i think even a used 5d setup is going to put him out at least 1000 +. If he's anything like me, he is trying to work his way up to the good stuff. Which is also why he might not be making as much as the big boys. I've second shot two weddings now, I understand I do not have the proper equipment to be able to use no flash. However, I didn't have a choice on one of them and had to use it. Had I invested in a D3 and 24-70f/2.8 I may have been able to get away without it, and of course would've preferred it. Since I wasn't paid you can bet I wasn't about to spend the money on upgrading equipment before the ceremony. Even if I would've been paid, it wouldn't have been enough. Photography is not my main job and not I'm not sure about the OP's, but i'm guessing not. I don't know his situation but I am a recent college grad, working full time, and between my husbands income and mine, we have 2 kids, house, car payment, etc.... Doesn't leave a lot of extra money to spend on equipment. (hubby is already through the roof with what I have spent this year, only picking up my first dslr in february and upgrading already) I am working hard at making this a side business eventually and when the time comes I will invest in better glass and a better body but for now I'm focusing on learning everything I can in hopes to quit my day job in a few years...(dreaming big I know). Does that mean we can't try to do our best now with what we have?

I apologize if your intent was an attempt to break the "geek" talk but as a newbie to weddings and photography in general, every once in a while I come across a statement or a person that just makes me (as a newbie) feel kind of belittled, as if they were born with a camera to their face. I get the feeling sometimes that we're not good enough to get our foot in the door and make the best of it with what we have. Us newbs (or at least I) thrive on your (and the other professional's) experienced advice and critiques. I can only aspire to be as good as some of the people on here. I also know that our success is not your responsibility but as a professional member of this community it is a given that they are the ones we look to for advice and critiques, and not in a way that makes us feel like we don't have a right to be doing this. If this site was nothing but amateurs and beginners I still would have my d40, likely would not know how to use it outside of P, and definately wouldn't have second shot 2 weddings already.

Just to clear the air, there are a lot of awesome people here including you, Matt, who have offered a great deal of useful advice and critique, and I'm sure I speak for a lot of beginners when I say it is greatly appreciated!

Hope you understand my point with this even though it was long. I'm not upset and not trying to be rude, just stating what I feel from my point of view. And by the way your work is amazing, and an inspiration to me.

-Melissa

Matthew Saville · July 13, 2009

lilmomma wrote:

Matt,

I don't think there is a single wedding shooter who prefers flash over natural light. That being said, I think his question was more of "what's the best way to use what I have?"
....

Hope you understand my point with this even though it was long. I'm not upset and not trying to be rude, just stating what I feel from my point of view. And by the way your work is amazing, and an inspiration to me.

-Melissa

Melissa, we are closer in situation than you think. I definitely do NOT shoot with a D300 and borrowed / rented f/1.4 lenses by choice! I too cannot yet afford a D3, or even a D700, nor the $1800 lenses that are needed to do it justice. I just got married in April and will be dirt poor for a while...

I never intend to belittle someone or make them feel disqualified from entering the professional realm. In fact I'm one of the few professionals who freely admits that professionals DON'T have a right to a career, and if we want to stay in business we have to work hard to blow away the competition. There is no law against a hobbyist or amateur shooting their friend's wedding for cheap or for free and delivering great photos that a professional would have charged thousands for. They have every right to do that in order to get their foot in the door, as long as BRIDES are happy with their photos.

I do of course speak strongly against shooting as the primary photographer BEFORE you are ready to do so, thus leaving a bride with low quality work. Especially considering the long term; 20 years down the road that is ALL the bride and groom will have... And to be blunt, I see a LITTLE of that here since the SmugMug community has a large composition of hobbyists who have not yet pushed themselves to rise above the current caliber of beginner / amateur photography. Which is perfectly fine in most every other scene, but weddings in particular are unique and have a far more important responsibility.

Remember that I say this as someone who did NOT start on the right track, and regrets not taking an extra year or two to keep practicing before saying "yes" to that first wedding job... So don't think I am trying to be high and mighty. I am only trying to ensure that as many brides as possible get the best possible photos on their wedding day... Thankfully all my brides are happy with their photographs, but *I* know that I was totally un-prepared...

And now we are not even talking about the original topic! But indeed, using flash masterfully in any type of poor light is one of the skills an event photographer should arm themselves with. So get out there and practice bouncing etc!

=Matt=

lilmomma · July 13, 2009

Matthew Saville wrote:

Melissa, we are closer in situation than you think. I definitely do NOT shoot with a D300 and borrowed / rented f/1.4 lenses by choice! I too cannot yet afford a D3, or even a D700, nor the $1800 lenses that are needed to do it justice. I just got married in April and will be dirt poor for a while...

I never intend to belittle someone or make them feel disqualified from entering the professional realm. In fact I'm one of the few professionals who freely admits that professionals DON'T have a right to a career, and if we want to stay in business we have to work hard to blow away the competition. There is no law against a hobbyist or amateur shooting their friend's wedding for cheap or for free and delivering great photos that a professional would have charged thousands for. They have every right to do that in order to get their foot in the door, as long as BRIDES are happy with their photos.

I do of course speak strongly against shooting as the primary photographer BEFORE you are ready to do so, thus leaving a bride with low quality work. Especially considering the long term; 20 years down the road that is ALL the bride and groom will have... And to be blunt, I see a LITTLE of that here since the SmugMug community has a large composition of hobbyists who have not yet pushed themselves to rise above the current caliber of beginner / amateur photography. Which is perfectly fine in most every other scene, but weddings in particular are unique and have a far more important responsibility.

Remember that I say this as someone who did NOT start on the right track, and regrets not taking an extra year or two to keep practicing before saying "yes" to that first wedding job... So don't think I am trying to be high and mighty. I am only trying to ensure that as many brides as possible get the best possible photos on their wedding day... Thankfully all my brides are happy with their photographs, but *I* know that I was totally un-prepared...

And now we are not even talking about the original topic! But indeed, using flash masterfully in any type of poor light is one of the skills an event photographer should arm themselves with. So get out there and practice bouncing etc!

=Matt=

Thank you for that Matt! (and I'm not being sarcastic) We did get a little off topic didn't we!

I entirely 1000% agree that shooting primary before you're ready can end up not good, and as being on the other end of that (the bride) who hired someone that had no experience I can fully support that mentality. I too got married recently, end of march, and I hired someone who had never done a wedding before. (craigslist, go figure). Biggest mistake i've ever made. She gave me copies of original and edited, thank goodness..the edited were worse than the original. I ended up having to convert them all to B+W just to have anything worth having. Nothing I can do now, and that's partly what has gotten me interested in weddings...in hopes that someday I can help prevent someone from making the same mistake I did. This ties along with many other threads I have read about the cost vs quality. I didn't have extra money to spend and at the time thought "I don't need all the fancy shots" Little did I know it's not just about the fancy shots! I was an idiot to hire someone that had no experience, but I also feel like that person should not have made themselves available for this type of event. Sooo...no arguing with you on that!

Anyway enough about all the off topic stuff-- I sincerely apologize for taking the comment out of context...and hijacking this thread. My initial reaction to that original statement was perhaps too defensive. I had just felt (not personally but in general) that way a few times before reading through some posts and this one just struck a nerve when I first read it. So most of my last post was just in general to bring up a point of view.

Anyway I'm done...truce?

oh and congrats on your recent wedding, hope you got some great photos!

manfred · July 19, 2009

is it safe to put my head above the battlements now ???

thanks to both of you for your input - i hope to get some sort of rehersal to check out both options - no flash/flash and i certainly intend to do my best for the couple.

once again thanks for the info and sorry for the late response

dave

advice please

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