Dealing with sports leagues - what to give back

AZTarHeel

I was talking with a baseball/softball league director in a town about 30 miles from where I live about who does team & individual photography for his leagues. He said this year no one did it, mostly because the outfit he used to go with wouldn't "give back" enough proceeds to the league to meet his tastes, so he dropped them (and basically let the teams do whatever they wanted).

I asked him what he wanted back from the photographer and he told me 40 percent!

I've only started sticking my feet into the team & individual world the past two to three years, but that seems very excessive. He said the outfit that he dropped was "only" willing to give back 25 percent.

It's a contract I'd love to have because this league has 50+ teams but I'd have to charge excessive prices just to make any money back for myself if I gave 40 percent back to the league. Just curious if this is normal or if this particular league director has just gotten fat and happy in the past by some overly generous/naive photogs ... thanks for the feedback...

LUCKYSHOT

most leagues i shoot do require a kickback, and for me I consider it part of the cost. I do feel though, that sponsoring a league certainly adds a level of trust that your new customers will have in you, knowing you are "with the league". I never have had to pay more than 15% or a set fee of $250 for a sponsorship. If he is saying the last outfit gave 25% then it means they gave 15%. and he is trying to be slick. I would pass personally or tell him you can do the 30% but no better, and it is 30% of the profit not total cost , He is hoping you raise your cost to add to your profit then it only adds to his profit as well. Hold your ground.
All the best
Chris

emeraldrose

LUCKYSHOT wrote:

most leagues i shoot do require a kickback, and for me I consider it part of the cost. I do feel though, that sponsoring a league certainly adds a level of trust that your new customers will have in you, knowing you are "with the league". I never have had to pay more than 15% or a set fee of $250 for a sponsorship. If he is saying the last outfit gave 25% then it means they gave 15%. and he is trying to be slick. I would pass personally or tell him you can do the 30% but no better, and it is 30% of the profit not total cost , He is hoping you raise your cost to add to your profit then it only adds to his profit as well. Hold your ground.
All the best
Chris

I personally don't have any experience in this area, but it sounds like way to much, I've never heard of any organization asking for kickbacks of this size

Sam

This is just my opinion...........................

40% is totally ridiculous! If say you needed $10.00 for a 4 X 6 and had to add 40% for the league, the cost of the
4 X 6 then becomes $16.67. I believe at the higher price your sales would drop like a rock.

Since he said that at present he has left it up to the individual teams, why not contact the teams directly? If you can get a number of the teams to sign on with you, and / or hire you as there official team photographer you will be able to provide high quality images at a reasonable price and make a fair profit.

Also if the league finds a dupe willing to pay the 40% extortion the teams you have been working for will scream like a wounded bear when the see the new league photo prices.

The teams have the leverage.

Sam

johng

Sam wrote:

Also if the league finds a dupe willing to pay the 40% extortion the teams you have been working for will scream like a wounded bear when the see the new league photo prices.

The teams have the leverage.

Sam

There is one 'fly' in the ointment above. That assumes the 'dupe' is a professional that must turn a reasonable profit to stay in business. If the person is a parent who just wants a reasonable profit to cover gear purchases, they might be very willing to give 40%. Now, it's unlikely a parent would try to undertake T&I for a 50 team league. So this likely won't apply to the OPs situation but for smaller leagues, without a doubt it's an issue. For 'Joe Shooter', making $100 for an afternoon shooting is great. For a business, it's a waste of time.

Snowgirl

I've been named "official photographer" for two horse associations - the regional barrel racing group and the provincial (I'm in Canada) dressage association.

The deal is: I attend their events and shoot. I 'donate' presentation photographs to the association (8 x 10s) who, in turn, present them to their sponsors. I also donate one gift certificate worth $250 which includes a portrait shoot for a horse and rider, one 8 x 10 and a CD of web-ready images. That gift certificate is used as a prize for one of their divisions.

What I get - exclusive rights to sell photos; an on-site booth space with electricity for my computer, battery charger etc., a link on their website (and they get one on mine) and lots of announcer comments during the day promoting my services. It seems to work well for all concerned and no actual cash changes hands. By the way, a booth rental for the week-end would be $65 - which they give me for $0.

NO WAY I would lock in to a specific percentage kickback. RUN, don't walk from that one.

barnyard

When I did all the teams in my city (high school and summer rec leagues), I provided all the yearbook photos, trophy photos and coaches photos. I never paid a sponsor fee, but could see that it was coming.

My cousin paid the fees. He had his prices and if the league demanded a fee, he raised his prices enough to pay the fee. He also made sure that parents knew it. The fees never lasted very long.....

On a 50 team league, 15 players per team, 60ish% participation with a $15.00 average (should be very easy to price packages to meet the $15 target), would make a $250 fee a bargain.

Offer up a flat $250 and add that you want an ad on the fence (if the league sells fence ads, that is.)

Another key, if you pursue it, pursue all the sports photos in your area. Lock it up so that you are THE person to call. The longer you are the ONE, the easier it will be to eliminate the fee.

Tom B

squeener

Rights.....is it illegal?
For several years, I've been shooting at a local high school and youth league in my spare time and sell prints strictly online (yeah smugmug!). I'm wanting to perhaps do this more and I'm exploring the idea of having a booth on site at the games. However, I was exploring the legal issues and came across this older article on USA Today's site -- http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/andrewkantor/2006-08-11-photography-rights_x.htm

Note the comment: "For example, if you shoot individual kids playing in a school football game, you can't try to sell those shots to the parents; the kids have a right to the use of their likeness."

Is this correct? Please weigh-in.....

Snowgirl

squeener wrote:

Note the comment: "For example, if you shoot individual kids playing in a school football game, you can't try to sell those shots to the parents; the kids have a right to the use of their likeness."

Is this correct? Please weigh-in.....

Say WHAT? Isn't that what we ALL do who shoot sports events? I shoot horse shows and try very HARD to sell photos of the competitors and their horses back to them or their parents in the case of kids. No one has the right to any image I take - it's immediately copyrighted as mine and only I can sell a license to someone (e.g. a parent) to use that picture of their kid.

I really don't understand what that guy is talking about. It goes against everything I've ever heard.

xxclixxx

I did a shoot for a softball team, I knew someone who was on it so I was able to get it setup. But unfortunately nothing came of it. The coach gave out the website address, the friend who told me about the team got a print, but nobody else..

Do you guys setup order forms for the coach to handle, or get addresses of players upfront? I thought the simplest form would be to order them off the site..

xxclixxx

Snowgirl wrote:

I really don't understand what that guy is talking about

Well I ignored the content when he said this: "you can probably get away with it". And then at the bottom saw this: ".. is a technology writer, pundit, and know-it-all who covers technology for .."

I'm not too keen on taking legal advice from people online to start, but someone who isn't in the legal field is another red flag for me..

Snowgirl

xxclixxx wrote:

Well I ignored the content when he said this: "you can probably get away with it". And then at the bottom saw this: ".. is a technology writer, pundit, and know-it-all who covers technology for .."

I'm not too keen on taking legal advice from people online to start, but someone who isn't in the legal field is another red flag for me..

Good point!

Snowgirl

xxclixxx wrote:

I did a shoot for a softball team, I knew someone who was on it so I was able to get it setup. But unfortunately nothing came of it. The coach gave out the website address, the friend who told me about the team got a print, but nobody else..

Do you guys setup order forms for the coach to handle, or get addresses of players upfront? I thought the simplest form would be to order them off the site..

I've tried the 'order off the website' route - unsuccessfully.

I have a horse show coming up in 2 weeks and I'm going to try the view and order on-site - delivery later - route and see what happens. I worked as a 2nd with another photog. a few weeks ago and that was his model - and it worked better than mine.

Gary Peterson Photography

40% Lol!

AZTarHeel wrote:

I was talking with a baseball/softball league director in a town about 30 miles from where I live about who does team & individual photography for his leagues. He said this year no one did it, mostly because the outfit he used to go with wouldn't "give back" enough proceeds to the league to meet his tastes, so he dropped them (and basically let the teams do whatever they wanted).

I asked him what he wanted back from the photographer and he told me 40 percent!

I've only started sticking my feet into the team & individual world the past two to three years, but that seems very excessive. He said the outfit that he dropped was "only" willing to give back 25 percent.

It's a contract I'd love to have because this league has 50+ teams but I'd have to charge excessive prices just to make any money back for myself if I gave 40 percent back to the league. Just curious if this is normal or if this particular league director has just gotten fat and happy in the past by some overly generous/naive photogs ... thanks for the feedback...

Anything over 15% walk away..

smc1972

Gary Peterson Photography wrote:

Anything over 15% walk away..

I do a huge volume of event photography and sports teams. As a rule, 10% is average for my competitors. I tried something different and it is very successful in my area. For high school teams, we do not give a kick back. We tell them if they have 90% or more kids purchase stuff on picture day, we will give them 20x30 posters of each senior, up to 15 max. If they don't hit the 90%, each poster is $85. Few schools hit the required percentage, and even if they do, my max print cost is $150 on 15 posters. We tell them we will do action photos to get the images for the posters and to make a slideshow for the end of season. Both give us perfect exposure for our website where parents can also purchase prints. Our website generates between $1k and $3k PER MONTH. We are only in our 5th year, so it can be done.

For red leagues, we do something totally different. We offer a memory mate for $15. If it's a first year team (1st yr for us to shoot them) we offer 25% of memorymate sales. If it's a 3 year contract league, we give them 50% of it. We also offer 5 packages and 26 other products. We give them 10% of those sales. The advantage of the higher percentage is to keep from having to rebid every year.

Check out our website at www.jonesphoto.biz

Snowgirl

Update - I survived

Snowgirl wrote:

I've tried the 'order off the website' route - unsuccessfully.

I have a horse show coming up in 2 weeks and I'm going to try the view and order on-site - delivery later - route and see what happens. I worked as a 2nd with another photog. a few weeks ago and that was his model - and it worked better than mine.

So, I survived the week-end; barely. So far, from a business perspective, it was a flop.

I spent 15 hours on Sat. and 13 hours on Sunday shooting - including presentation photos and action shots. In all I captured 2575 images. I then spent 8 hours on Monday culling and sorting. 4 hours on Tuesday uploading and notifying everyone - and doing some very MINOR editing on a few.

To facilitate sales I hired a friend to work for me 4 hours on Sat. and 4 on Sunday during peak viewing times. She showed photos and took orders. no on-site printing.

During the show we sold 2 5 x7s @ $10. One other person said they wanted some photos but would look later - and in fact ordered 10 5x7s =$100. Several other people said they'd check out the on-line galleries and order after-the-fact. We'll see.

So, I sold $120 worth of prints (so far) which I'll be shipping out tomorrow. I spent close to 46 hours on the project AND I paid my assistant $10 an hour or a total of $80.

Will I ever do it again? Probably not. Much as I love dressage (personally) and enjoy the show, and even though my own riding students are competing (oh, and winning, I might add :ivar) it's not worth the time investment and wear and tear on my gear, legs, feet and back, etc.

I haven't made any decisions about pursuing - or not - this line of business just yet but I can't see it being worthwhile at this rate. I've talked to other show photogs. in my area and nobody is making any serious money at it. The upside is the contacts you make which COULD result in other business - family photos, weddings, etc.

Any other thoughts? Suggestions?

cdonovan

The thing about event photography is that you can go and set up a booth and take pictures and display your work. But this doesn't obligate anyone to buy anything.

You have to make them WANT to buy your pictures. At this time, with the economic "crisis" you have to appeal to them in a way other than, hey you, i have a picture of you on your horse, (or you kicking a ball, or nailing a slam dunk etc. ) wanna buy it? You have to appeal to them in a way that makes them Need the pictures. It's not at all about the photographer making the money, it's about providing a needed and wanted service to the clients that make them want and need your pictures.

I just got home from 4 8 hour + days for a horse show at the same facility that snowgirl was shooting her dressage show, already, I'm very happy with sales, The love of the people and horses that I'm shooting is key here though. If I didn't enjoy it, I wouldn't do it, even though it's a successful venture for me.

Snowgirl

cdonovan wrote:

The thing about event photography is that you can go and set up a booth and take pictures and display your work. But this doesn't obligate anyone to buy anything.

You have to make them WANT to buy your pictures. At this time, with the economic "crisis" you have to appeal to them in a way other than, hey you, i have a picture of you on your horse, (or you kicking a ball, or nailing a slam dunk etc. ) wanna buy it? You have to appeal to them in a way that makes them Need the pictures. It's not at all about the photographer making the money, it's about providing a needed and wanted service to the clients that make them want and need your pictures.

I just got home from 4 8 hour + days for a horse show at the same facility that snowgirl was shooting her dressage show, already, I'm very happy with sales, The love of the people and horses that I'm shooting is key here though. If I didn't enjoy it, I wouldn't do it, even though it's a successful venture for me.

Good points. And in fairness - I am starting to get post-show orders so perhaps I was mistaken about the opportunity from a business perspective. I'll see what happens over the next while and let you know.

Your photos are works of art, Chris - a whole different 'ballgame' from the normal action shots taken at horse shows. I admire that approach and couldn't begin to emulate it. I think it depends, as you said, what people in particular events are looking for or want.

I'm seeing a pattern as to the type of shots people are buying which would make doing another show a little easier - I'd work at getting those images and ignore some of the other stuff. it's all a learning experience, for sure.

snaptie2002

Horse shows are good events for on site sales. They provide a captive audience in a confined location with lots of down time for parents and participants to browse photos.

But in order to make it work you need to treat the sales end like a separate operation. It's almost like running a carnival side show, complete with spotlights, banners and barker. Good table techs and sales people are at least as, if not more, important than the photographers.

We have tried some small scale on site sales with small scale results. Until we get the man power and technology we need to make a Hollywood production out of our on site sales operation we will stick to online sales.

As far as vendor fees go, we mostly don't run into them. When we do the upper limit for us is 20%


Here are some shots from a recent show if you would like to see them.
http://binghamfreelance.smugmug.com/Horse%20Shows

Marty

Snowgirl

Great action shots, Marty.

I agree with you about the on-site sales - which is why I hired a friend to help me in my booth. I know, from being the sales person for someone else, that even at a relatively small show it can work - but it's not easy, that's for sure. You really need someone in the booth the whole time, not just a few hours, and a decent monitor set up (not just my laptop) etc. etc. So, I also agree that if I can't do it decently, then I'll stick with on-line ordering.

The unfortunate part is that you lose that impulse, emotional purchase. Oh well.