help picking my first DSLR

brvheart

Hello all,

first off great forum so far.

I currently shoot with a Canon S3 IS, it has proved to be versatile and has helped me capture some great shots. I am not biased when shooting and enjoy shooting every kind of shot out there. Mostly to capture my kids lives and our family heritage in general. I was going to go for a Canon XSi, but then the T1i caught my eye as one of the things that I love about the S3 is the ability to shoot video. And to get HD (although not true HD 20FPS) and a DSLR caught me as a perfect tool for me. Since I am just beginning and this is my first DSLR but I do not have the funds to buy one every year I will keep it for a while. I am still a photog newb (see some of the attached photos and you will agree) but absolutely love shooting. I do not want to be disappointed in everything that you gain from shooting with a DSLR by having one that does video as well. So I am asking for your expertise in helping me make an educated choice that I will not regret. I have attached just a couple of shots all taken with the S3, I look forward to posting more in the appropriate sections. Any CC on these welcomed as well.

Thank you in advanced for helping me make a good choice.

Jwar

I would suggest you also give the Nikon D90 a chance. It has HD video and it's a great camera.

A couple of tips that helped me...
Try it out! Hold it in your hands and play with them. You will notice one might be more comfortable than the others. Play with the settings because one may be more intuitive for you than the others. I was dead set on getting the Canon XSi but the Nikon felt great and (for me) the controls were very intuitive. The D90 is great in low light and 4.5 FPS were other selling points for me.

Just have a budget in mind because the ones that cost more $$$ slways feel much better.

brvheart

Jwar wrote:

I would suggest you also give the Nikon D90 a chance. It has HD video and it's a great camera.

A couple of tips that helped me...
Try it out! Hold it in your hands and play with them. You will notice one might be more comfortable than the others. Play with the settings because one may be more intuitive for you than the others. I was dead set on getting the Canon XSi but the Nikon felt great and (for me) the controls were very intuitive. The D90 is great in low light and 4.5 FPS were other selling points for me.

Just have a budget in mind because the ones that cost more $$$ slways feel much better.

Hi and Thank you for the reply. How is picture quality on the Nikon compared to canon? Also I have not looked at available kits for the D90 but will do that right now. I would like to keep it under $1000 for the kits and have found a T1i with 4 lens (Tamron 28-80, 75-300, wideangle and telephoto) with the cases etc for under that price point. Guess I will have to go to the local store and look at the D90 today and see how it feels in my hand. The low light is very important to me as well for indoor events that I shoot (ballet, tumbling, hockey etc).

mehampson

Image quality between Canon and Nikon is so close that it's a non-factor. Most qualities about the two are, actually, especially if you're talking about the entry and mid-level bodies. Go to Best Buy or Target and see how they feel in your hand, which is by far the most important difference between the two systems for a new photographer -- don't buy anything there, though, you'll get much better deals and service at B&H/Adorama/Amazon.

One other thing to think about: I'm assuming from what you wrote that you don't already have a collection of film SLR gear, but a lot of older gear is still compatible with modern systems. Nikon more than Canon. Maybe you've got an uncle or something who's got some though, and that could be a cheap way to build your collection. Likewise, if you have photographer friends, I would go with the brand that they use, because you'll have that experience to call on as you learn the camera. Unless, of course, you pick up the T1i or D90 and just hate the ergonomics with a passion.

This may be a silly question, but where did you see that T1i deal? I'd be extremely wary about buying anything from a non-authorized dealer. They'll advertise warranties that turn out to be through third-party service centers with spotty reputations, and Canon/Nikon won't honor them.

ziggy53

brvheart wrote:

Hi and Thank you for the reply. How is picture quality on the Nikon compared to canon? Also I have not looked at available kits for the D90 but will do that right now. I would like to keep it under $1000 for the kits and have found a T1i with 4 lens (Tamron 28-80, 75-300, wideangle and telephoto) with the cases etc for under that price point. Guess I will have to go to the local store and look at the D90 today and see how it feels in my hand. The low light is very important to me as well for indoor events that I shoot (ballet, tumbling, hockey etc).

Brvheart, welcome to the Digital Grin.

Both the Canon T1i and the Nikon D90 are capable of wonderful images. Lenses will make more impact on image quality than will the camera body.

The 2 lenses you mention, the Tamron 28-80mm, f/3.5-5.6 Aspherical and the 75-300mm f/4-5.6 LD, are not very high quality but might suffice for entry level lenses. Both would require very good light and smaller apertures for results that could equal what you got from the Canon S3 camera.

I suggest that a budget of $1000 is a bit small for a really competent dSLR system. The Nikon D90 camera alone is around that same budget.

If you want to go with the Canon T1i I would suggest the kit with the Canon EF-S 18-55mm, f/3.5-5.6 IS zoom lens and then also purchase the Canon EF-S 55-250mm, f/4.0-5.6 IS zoom. While whese are not perfect lenses by any means, they are fairly competent in good light.

Also budget for a decent flash. An external flash, used appropriately, will make a tremendous difference in an indoor or night situation, more than will lenses or camera. I suggest the Sigma EF-530 DG Super Electronic Flash for Canon. (The DG and Super designations are important.)

You would also want to construct (or purchase) some flash modifiers as well.

In total, for general photography, if you purchased:

Canon EOS Rebel T1i D-SLR Camera and EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS Lens kit
Canon EF-S 55-250mm, f/4.0-5.6 IS zoom telephoto
Sigma EF-530 DG Super Electronic Flash for Canon

You would have a very capable dSLR system for just above $1250 or so.

Add the modifiers I use and recommend:

http://www.fototime.com/inv/908195739C4C0D3

http://abetterbouncecard.com/

Joe Demb also makes an interesting device for sale (reasonable):

http://www.dembflashproducts.com/flipit/

... and you have a very well rounded system.

silversx80

Too bad the ability to shoot video is a requirement. Olympus has a winner in the E-620, plus their kit lenses are the best-in-class. I am a bit biased, however.

Before I bought the E-620, I was considering a brand change to the Nikon D90. It is a very nice body, but the 18-105 VR kit lens is SUH-LOOOOWWWWWWW, so a different lens should be the first order of business... in my humble opinion.

In my opinion, the Nikon felt much more solid than the Canon 50D and would have won me over if it wasn't for some odd attraction to Olympus nostalgia.

ziggy53

A couple of other asides:

Keep the Canon S3 for your macro work for the time being. It takes additional lenses to produce competent macro images on a dSLR. Ideally, you would also want some additional external flashes and brackets and modifiers as well.

A dSLR will not make a very good camcorder. While it does some things very well, a camcorder generally does a better job overall with video.

Neither the Nikon D90 nor the Canon T1i has an external microphone capability. If all you want is indoor sound they work pretty well, but outdoors in wind both suffer.

Neither will record "long format" video, meaning that weddings would have to be recorded in snippets (for instance).

brvheart

thank you all for the awesome relies! I now have a bunch to think about, I wanted the ability to do Video so that I did not have to carry the S3 with me - though I am keeping that camera and will use it until it dies, I love that thing. I now wonder if I should just buy two items - a DSLR and Video Camera so that I do not limit the ability of the camera, like I said I was really just wanting to carry one item with lens, but on the other hand if I am already carrying a bag full of DSLR stuff throwing a camcorder in there is not going be that big of a deal.

So if I was going to get into a DSLR that does not do video - entry level that I want to keep for a long time where does that leave me with options? The great debate starts for me I guess.

ziggy53

brvheart wrote:

... So if I was going to get into a DSLR that does not do video - entry level that I want to keep for a long time where does that leave me with options? The great debate starts for me I guess.

A camera, indeed a dSLR, is just a tool; a means to an end. Finding the right tool for anything is based on knowing what your needs are.

What is it you want to do with photography? Please elaborate as much as you feel necessary in order for us to know what you want to do beyond the capabilities of your S3 camera.

silversx80

brvheart wrote:

So if I was going to get into a DSLR that does not do video - entry level that I want to keep for a long time where does that leave me with options? The great debate starts for me I guess.

Planting the Olympus bug once more... Join the Dark Side, we have cookies.

Technical Image Press Association (TIPA): Olympus E-620
"The Olympus E-620 digital SLR has been recognized as the leader of its respective camera category at the annual TIPA awards for products and technologies in the field of photography. This year, the Four Thirds-based E-620 won the prestigious award for “Best D-SLR Entry Level,” of the year. TIPA is comprised of members from 29 independent publications based in 13 countries around the world."

The E-620 can be had with the 14-42mm and 40-150mm (with the crop factor, 28-300mm in 35mm film terms) kit lenses for ~$800. I got my E-620 + the 14-54 f/2.8-3.5 mk II lens for ~$1050 from Adorama. A fantastic camera. The fireworks shots from the gallery in my signature were done with that camera and lens. I don't do the camera any justice, however.

And for reading pleasure http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympuse620/

brvheart

ziggy53 wrote:

A camera, indeed a dSLR, is just a tool; a means to an end. Finding the right tool for anything is based on knowing what your needs are.

What is it you want to do with photography? Please elaborate as much as you feel necessary in order for us to know what you want to do beyond the capabilities of your S3 camera.

Ok, here goes -

Mainly my kids and our memories. This can range to trips to the beach, zoo, parks, to action shots like baseball, MMA, Hockey, Ballet etc.

I guess the best way to describe the needs is wide range capabilities. There are so many things that I find us doing that I can not pinpoint the need. I would like any good shot to be able to be hung on the wall as a trophy so to speak. I think that life is way to short and memories are made every day none of which I want to miss.

Does that help?

Grainbelt

I was in a similar place a year ago and sold my S5 IS when I bought my Pentax K200D.

I now have well over $1500 invested in the body, a few lenses, and a flash and still don't have the range that the S5 IS has. As a bonus, my early shots with the DSLR were actually worse than with the Canon. Some great results now that I know what I'm doing, but there is definitely a learning curve.

So I'd say keep the S3, think about what situations it lets you down in, and buy a DSLR and lenses to complement it.

Also, my friend has a FLIP HD camcorder that is tiny and takes great video.

brvheart

Grainbelt wrote:

I was in a similar place a year ago and sold my S5 IS when I bought my Pentax K200D.

I now have well over $1500 invested in the body, a few lenses, and a flash and still don't have the range that the S5 IS has. As a bonus, my early shots with the DSLR were actually worse than with the Canon. Some great results now that I know what I'm doing, but there is definitely a learning curve.

So I'd say keep the S3, think about what situations it lets you down in, and buy a DSLR and lenses to complement it.

Also, my friend has a FLIP HD camcorder that is tiny and takes great video.

Yeah I hear you there, that is what I dont want to happen. The S3 is very versatile and is a caple PS for many scenarios, mostly what is lacking is the indoor, low light action shots (hockey, Ballet, tumbling etc).

ziggy53

brvheart wrote:

Ok, here goes -

Mainly my kids and our memories. This can range to trips to the beach, zoo, parks, to action shots like baseball, MMA, Hockey, Ballet etc.

I guess the best way to describe the needs is wide range capabilities. There are so many things that I find us doing that I can not pinpoint the need. I would like any good shot to be able to be hung on the wall as a trophy so to speak. I think that life is way to short and memories are made every day none of which I want to miss.

Does that help?

Photography tends to be broken into many different disciplines:

Portraiture
Landscape (including vista landscapes) photography
Architectural photography
Event photography
Wedding (a specialized type of event) photography
Micro photography
Macro photography
Nature photography (please be specific if this applies)
Sports photography
Astronomical photography
Aerial photography
Product photography
Travel photography
Underwater photography
IR/UV photography
etc.

From what we have seen and what you have told us it sounds like family event, sports (including indoor sports) and macro photography are some of your interests.

What is a practical working budget? (Many of these categories require specialized equipment and may get pricey.)

divamum

You may find this recent thread helpful, which asked a similar question and there was a range of very good answers.

Good luck with your choice!

brvheart

well....I went to the camera store....I loved the way the D5000 fit in my hand and it will do 720p video go figure. So now I have to add that one in to the mix - I did not know that this was going to be such a involved process.

ziggy53

Considering that you want to shoot indoor sports I would suggest that an entry level camera from any manufacturer will not yield a consistently high percentage of "keepers". I would suggest that at least the middle tier of cameras would be required, and the best cameras recommended.

For Nikon I suggest that for indoor sports that the D300 is the starting point because of a fairly good high-ISO capability as well as better AF performance.

For Canon I really think that the 1D MKII/MKIIN/MKIII series is the best choice and a used 1D MKII can be very reasonable in cost. AF performance is stellar, throughput is excellent and general responsiveness is still very good (even though this is getting to be an "older" camera in terms of years since its introduction.)

Add a good sports lens and you have a chance at fairly consistent results.

Hockey, and tumbling are not going to be satisfactory with entry level cameras and lenses from anyone. Ballet can be a bit more reasonable in terms of the speed of action, but during a performance you have to deal with theatrical lighting which can be challenging as well for an entry level camera.

InsuredDisaster

For Nikon here, and I am not well versed in all that they have to offer at that, but wouldn't the D90 and perhaps the 80-200 2.8 be a good idea if he is going to be shooting indoor sports? I think the D300 might be really costly, and the diference could be spent on a good low light lens. I also think the D300 is really heavy to be carrying around watching the kids all the time. Another thing, I love my 300, but the way I really like to use it makes it nearly impossible to just hand it to other people if I want them to take my photo. I've set up a "consumer mode", but even then, I normally need to change a menu setting and 2-3 of the switches over before I hand the camera to someone else, or else the pictures they take look like utter crap. Maybe I've set up mine differently than other people, but for me, it works like a dream. (AF-On button used to start AF, for one example)

I think the D90 with its auto modes might be a better bet for kids or SO's who might not be inclined to learn all the ins and outs so that the OP can get into some of the shots with the kids. I once set up my 300 for a cousin at a wedding and said have fun. She took some good pictures, but even with auto ISO, and all that, it wasn't until I took the camera back and changed everything did the photos really look good.


I've not shot with the D90, but on paper, it looks to be a darned good camera. And I shot basketball with my D70 back in the day with an 80-200 for a paper. It was good enough for them. Granted, now I look at the results from the D70 and even at ISO800 you can see a major decrease in image quality. But I think in the current "generation" of cameras, the D90 might be a good bet.

And its got the video as well, though only for 5 minute sessions. And some might say the cameras are not good for that.

Another thing about the D90, is that from my experience, no point and shoot in the world can compete with ANY SLR sold today in the terms of FPS and ISO performance. Please correct me if I'm wrong, since that would be the camera to buy, and save our money and backs from the tyranny of heavy, expensive SLRs. So if sports are important, I really think the D90 would probably be enough, especially compared to the PS he is currently using. Then lenses can be purchased (name the 80-200 2.8) The D300 I think would not be a good choice.


Just my poorly informed and longwinded opinion.

Jane B.

ziggy53 wrote:

Considering that you want to shoot indoor sports I would suggest that an entry level camera from any manufacturer will not yield a consistently high percentage of "keepers". I would suggest that at least the middle tier of cameras would be required, and the best cameras recommended.

For Nikon I suggest that for indoor sports that the D300 is the starting point because of a fairly good high-ISO capability as well as better AF performance.

For Canon I really think that the 1D MKII/MKIIN/MKIII series is the best choice and a used 1D MKII can be very reasonable in cost. AF performance is stellar, throughput is excellent and general responsiveness is still very good (even though this is getting to be an "older" camera in terms of years since its introduction.)

Add a good sports lens and you have a chance at fairly consistent results.

Hockey, and tumbling are not going to be satisfactory with entry level cameras and lenses from anyone. Ballet can be a bit more reasonable in terms of the speed of action, but during a performance you have to deal with theatrical lighting which can be challenging as well for an entry level camera.

You seem to assume high level sports BUT if the OP's kids are elementary age wouldn't that make a BIG difference in which level of camera would work? That seems to be the missing information.

ziggy53

I could temper the recommendtion if the children are very young, meaning that the action might not be so intense and closing rates (a primary determinant for determining AF success relative to a particular AF system) might be more modest.

By High School level sports are fairly demanding of photographic equipment.

The original poster's statement,

brvheart wrote:

... I would like any good shot to be able to be hung on the wall as a trophy so to speak. I think that life is way to short and memories are made every day none of which I want to miss. ...

, seems to indicate a need for a high percentage of "keepers".

I can say with some certainty that an entry level camera and lens, in an indoor or night sports venue, will not be able to maintain more than about a 25 percent rate of "keepers" and probably no more than 10 percent would be "wall hangers" (and the rate might be less than that relating to display quality images.)

Adding a sports quality lens, qualified as a fast aperture and fast focus lens of f2.8 constant aperture or faster with USM, the best Nikon AF-S motor or HSM (in the case of Sigma sport lenses), and you might achieve up to about a 40 percent ratio of keepers (again that is defined as during an action sequence.)

Combine a sports lens with a professional body and you still will not achieve a 100 percent ratio of keepers, much less wall hangers. Professional sports shooters can't do it even with the best equipment and years of experience. They cannot do it with indoor/night pro sports or with indoor/night HS sports. Those are the unfortunate realities.

Professional cameras use an autofocus system with at least one stop more sensitivity than lesser tier cameras and the best Nikon and Canon cameras also use "Area SIR" AF which means they don't have to "see" vertical or horizontal edges like the simpler "cross type" AF systems. Area SIR AF can focus using an image edge at any angle. These 2 properties amount to a tremendous advantage over the simpler AF SIR systems in low light situations.

Couple this with faster AF processing (the Canon 1D MKII/MKIIN/MKIII use dual processors to speed AF processing) and you have a "system" designed for better results under difficult situations.

I can say all these things because I have not only researched this technology, I tried the entry level camera and lens approach and I was dissatisfied with the results. Daylight outdoor sports were not so bad, but indoor and night sports just confounded my attempts. I upgraded lenses first and that made a positive difference, but when I upgraded bodies and used the sports lenses my success rate for indoor and night sports became dramatically better.

Please don't read my words as mean spirited, I am only relating my actual experiences. I am not a great sports photographer and never intend to be. My goal was to record, as faithfully as possible, my children as they traversed HS and, as my son is the youngest, record him and his teams as they made their way through playoffs. (They won at state level competition in 2004 and I recorded that with a Minolta advanced digicam, far from ideal.)

Anyone who wishes can see my galleries at ziggy53.smugmug.com and you should be able to see the progress I made moving from the better lens and entry-level dSLR through sports lens and best dSLR. Note that I did not sell any images. My position was to record the games that I could, acting somewhat as the team photographer. I freely gave away my images to anyone who wanted them. (There is, of course, a special bias towards my son in the football pictures. )

brvheart

well need more help
I cant go for a high end DSLR right now, so I think that I have decided on the T1i because of the 1080 video, though I like the Nikon D5000 feel better and the look of the options

is this a good buy to start with? I can obviously save and get better lenses as I go -

Option I am looking at

ziggy53

brvheart wrote:

I cant go for a high end DSLR right now, so I think that I have decided on the T1i because of the 1080 video, though I like the Nikon D5000 feel better and the look of the options

is this a good buy to start with? I can obviously save and get better lenses as I go -

Option I am looking at

I do not recommend buying a camera from an EBay vendor.

Stay with

B&H
Adorama
Tallyn's

Do you realize that the 1080P of the Canon T1i is 20fps? (compared to 30fps for television standard frame rate.) This would mean that any kind of action will be "jerkier" than you may be used to. You are also limited for the audio to the built-in microphone and AF is nowhere as nice as a real camcorder.

I just don't want you thinking this will pass for the same as a dedicated camcorder. It's not that the video is horrible, it's not, but it may not be suitable for your needs.

ziggy53

P.S. pretty good starter lenses for that camera would be:

Canon EF-S 18-55mm, f/3.5-5.6 IS (and you can get this as a kit lens with the T1i.)
Canon EF-S 55-250mm, f/4-5.6 IS

These are fairly inexpensive and reasonably good quality (better than the ones included in the EBay listing you linked.)

brvheart

Thanks Ziggy - I know that no camera is going to do video the way a camcorder would do, but we have been using the S3 as our Video for a few years now so this has to be at least as good as that if not better.

What is the reason for not doing ebay out of curiosity?

ziggy53

brvheart wrote:

Thanks Ziggy - I know that no camera is going to do video the way a camcorder would do, but we have been using the S3 as our Video for a few years now so this has to be at least as good as that if not better.

What is the reason for not doing ebay out of curiosity?

The biggest problem is service after the sale. Use an established business with a real support system. While the vendor you linked to in EBay has a pretty good "sales" history, there is no way to tell what their "service" history is. If this is a significant purchase for you then purchase from a reputable seller who specializes in cameras and related equipment.

Again, I do not recommend either of the lenses that vendor was putting into their "kit". (I will conditionally recommend the longer lens, the Tamron 75-300,f4-f5.6 LD, if you use it as a 75-200mm, f5.6-f8 . Used in that way, it's not too bad. That does mean that it works best in very good light, at small apertures, at considerably less than the 300mm rating.)

I make absolutely nothing from sales of any of the vendors I recommend, so I have no incentive other than to share positive experiences in the form of recommendations.

brvheart

Thanks Ziggy - note taken. Maybe I should just hold out until I can spend what is required to do it correctly. The S3 is serving me fine in most cases.

brvheart

What are the thoughts on a used XTi with Sigma 70-300mm F/4-5.6, Canon 28-90mm kit, comes with Bag, Tripod, off brand flash, filter kit, manuals, 4GB CF card and reader from someone local here?

I know that it does not get me the video, but maybe that is a good thing and it puts me in a DSLR to learn with at a minimal cost.

ziggy53

brvheart wrote:

What are the thoughts on a used XTi with Sigma 70-300mm F/4-5.6, Canon 28-90mm kit, comes with Bag, Tripod, off brand flash, filter kit, manuals, 4GB CF card and reader from someone local here?

I know that it does not get me the video, but maybe that is a good thing and it puts me in a DSLR to learn with at a minimal cost.

Even the rather old Canon XT/350D has some merit. The bigger problem is the lenses you are specifying. Here is an example of a kit better than you have specified:

Canon XSi with EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS lens (refurbished) $550USD:
http://www.adorama.com/ICADRXSIBKR.html?searchinfo=refurbished+canon

Be sure to read the reviews:
http://www.adorama.com/ICADRXSIBKR.html?searchinfo=refurbished+canon#ProductReviews

Canon EF-S 55-250mm f/4-5.6 IS zoom lens (refurbished), as I mentioned previously, $200:
http://www.adorama.com/CA55250AFSR.html?searchinfo=refurbished+canon

Sigma EF-530 DG Super Shoe Mount Flash for Canon EOS E-TTL-II, $220:
http://www.adorama.com/SG530EOS.html?searchinfo=sigma+530+super+canon

That puts you at just below $1000. Buy a SanDisk 4 GB Ultra II, SDHC card:
http://www.adorama.com/IDSU15SD4GB.html?searchinfo=sandisk+4gb+sd+card

I think that just makes your $1000 budget. You do need some AA batteries for the flash and I highly recommend you build some DIY flash modifiers (less than $3 each, easy to build):

http://www.fototime.com/inv/908195739C4C0D3

http://abetterbouncecard.com/

Joe Demb also makes an interesting device for sale (reasonable):

http://www.dembflashproducts.com/flipit/

I own a FlipIt product and it works well and is very well made.

For a bag almost anything will do for a start. The Adorama "Slinger" is actually pretty good and not very expensive at all:

Here is the gray bag ($15 less than the black and the same bag otherwise), $45:
http://www.adorama.com/GBSLGY.html?searchinfo=slinger

If you do all of this you will have a very competent starter system, capable of excellent results (after you spend some time learning how to make it all work.)

Eventually you will probably want to upgrade the lenses and we can help when that time comes. Tripod and head will come later.

brvheart

Thank you all for the input in this thread, it has been very helpful. At the end of the day, I chose not to get a DSLR that had video on it.

Ziggy - I took what you said to heart about the lenses, and though I did not go that route, I do understand and thank you for the info. I know that I wil upgrade my lenes as I go and thought about the need to spend double the offer I was looking at. To me it was to good a deal to pass on. So this is what I got -

Canon XTi
battery and charger
Sigma 70-300mm F/4-5.6
Canon 28-90mm kit lens
Wide Angle lens
2 Bags
Tripod
off brand flash
filter kit
Hood
52-58mm adpters
4GB CF card and reader
All cables and original manuals included

I got all this for roughly $400 so I thought that I really could not beat this for my first DSLR.

I hope that I get the Ziggy seal of approval

What do you guys think? Good deal? I had test images and camera to a friend of mine that is a pro photog and he said everything checked out and no dead pixels - so I am pretty happy.

HeatherWB

For all of that, that sounds like a GREAT deal.

Really, what's important is that you've now got what you need to get started learning photography, even if it isn't top of the line.

Now go out there and start shooting. :

Heather

ziggy53

brvheart wrote:

Thank you all for the input in this thread, it has been very helpful. At the end of the day, I chose not to get a DSLR that had video on it.

Ziggy - I took what you said to heart about the lenses, and though I did not go that route, I do understand and thank you for the info. I know that I wil upgrade my lenes as I go and thought about the need to spend double the offer I was looking at. To me it was to good a deal to pass on. So this is what I got -

Canon XTi
battery and charger
Sigma 70-300mm F/4-5.6
Canon 28-90mm kit lens
Wide Angle lens
2 Bags
Tripod
off brand flash
filter kit
Hood
52-58mm adpters
4GB CF card and reader
All cables and original manuals included

I got all this for roughly $400 so I thought that I really could not beat this for my first DSLR.

I hope that I get the Ziggy seal of approval

What do you guys think? Good deal? I had test images and camera to a friend of mine that is a pro photog and he said everything checked out and no dead pixels - so I am pretty happy.

At that price those lenses are virtually free so yes, a very good deal. Please do keep us posted on your progress and questions.