Some help with flash
InsuredDisaster
Registered Users Posts: 1,132 Major grins
I'm having some trouble here and was wondering what I can do about it. I'd really like some help, tips and pointers.
THE REQUEST:
I'd like help with getting my cameras and flashes to work together to illuminate a backlit scene. I welcome all suggestions, even if they require equipment I don't have. HOWEVER, I really am only capable of trying things that require what I do have.
WHAT I"VE GOT:
(All nikon) SB-600, SB-800, D70, D300, assortment of lenses. THe particular lense I'm using is the 10.5 fisheye.
SAMPLE SCENERIO:
I'm shooting skateboarders, using the fisheye. I'm shooting up. Now, I don't pick the spots, so often the sun is up there, hanging out. I expose for the sky, and use the SB-800 to trigger the SB-600. Since I'm shooting up, if I use the SB-800 as illumination, I just blow out the bottom of the board, and miss the faces all together. So its really all on the SB-600 to light up the skateboarder, who is of course backlit.
THE PROBLEM:
I can't really get shots with the D300 that I'm happy with. The D70 has a flash sync speed of 1/500th second, whereas the D300 only goes up to 1/250th of a second. To make up the difference, I have to stop down the lens, which, unless I'm mistaken, reduces the effective range of the flash. Now, I've tried the High speed sync on the D300, but that doesn't seem to help. If anything, it further reduces the maxium effective range.
I seem to do OK with the D70, but I'd really like to be able to use my D300. What changes to my overall setup, either camera settings, equipment usage, etc, do you recommend?
I really can't move the tripod with the SB-600 any closer to the subject; it was knocked down twice today be errant skateboards from jumps gone bad. Its already at full power. ND filters? Lower the ISO 1 stop? Stop down and throw more light (using strobes?) Reflectors? My other problem is that with the D70, the action seems crisper. With the D300, I think there's some motion blur in the shot. What do I do?:scratch
THE REQUEST:
I'd like help with getting my cameras and flashes to work together to illuminate a backlit scene. I welcome all suggestions, even if they require equipment I don't have. HOWEVER, I really am only capable of trying things that require what I do have.
WHAT I"VE GOT:
(All nikon) SB-600, SB-800, D70, D300, assortment of lenses. THe particular lense I'm using is the 10.5 fisheye.
SAMPLE SCENERIO:
I'm shooting skateboarders, using the fisheye. I'm shooting up. Now, I don't pick the spots, so often the sun is up there, hanging out. I expose for the sky, and use the SB-800 to trigger the SB-600. Since I'm shooting up, if I use the SB-800 as illumination, I just blow out the bottom of the board, and miss the faces all together. So its really all on the SB-600 to light up the skateboarder, who is of course backlit.
THE PROBLEM:
I can't really get shots with the D300 that I'm happy with. The D70 has a flash sync speed of 1/500th second, whereas the D300 only goes up to 1/250th of a second. To make up the difference, I have to stop down the lens, which, unless I'm mistaken, reduces the effective range of the flash. Now, I've tried the High speed sync on the D300, but that doesn't seem to help. If anything, it further reduces the maxium effective range.
I seem to do OK with the D70, but I'd really like to be able to use my D300. What changes to my overall setup, either camera settings, equipment usage, etc, do you recommend?
I really can't move the tripod with the SB-600 any closer to the subject; it was knocked down twice today be errant skateboards from jumps gone bad. Its already at full power. ND filters? Lower the ISO 1 stop? Stop down and throw more light (using strobes?) Reflectors? My other problem is that with the D70, the action seems crisper. With the D300, I think there's some motion blur in the shot. What do I do?:scratch
0
Comments
But you need HIgh Speed Synch I believe and shoot the camera in Manual mode. With High Speed Synch your D300 will synch at shutter speeds.
Manual mode will solve your exposure for the sky, and the flash in iTTL will light up your subject correctly
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
I've been trying the sync, and its not really working. I'm not sure if I'm doing something wrong. It seems to knock down the range of the flash a lot, say if the SB-800 is used on camera. I didn't really try to see if the off camera flash would be affected. I've used it in the past for much closer stuff when I was shooting people, so I do know it works there. Does it work for sports too? Thanks for the help. Its a bit frustrating here. Have to keep trying stuff.
I did some more research and did some testing outside today and I'm wondering if the high speed sync mode just cuts down the range so much that my SB-600 isn't strong enough to overcome the backlit scene. I'm guessing another strobe or two would probably help things a lot.
Does anyone know about reflectors and how effective they'd be in this situation? I'm using a wide angle lense, and would probably have the reflector 6-10 feet away from the subject, aiming where the face would be at peak action. I'm wondering if this would be a cheaper alternative to buying more strobes. Thoughts?
Here we go. Use your D70. And on the hot shoe flash, your sb600. (Under the impression you don't have remote triggers) drop your SB600 in manual to 1/64 power. If you have a shoot through umbrella, use it in conjuction with your SB800 on SU mode. (The SB 600 will be used only to fire the SB800 and not to contribute to the scene.
On your D70, place a small piece of electrical tape on the two pins closest to you. This tricks your camera into thinking there is no flash on it. Then your sync speed will be your camera's maximum shutter speed. Since aperture controls flash contribution and shutter, them aimbient, you'll get a great looking shot if your lights are placed properly. If you are limited to the hot shoe only, then you'll need some sort of diffuser and adjust your flash's power according to the distance. You'll also want to check with a DOF calculator to see what's the maximum and minimum area of sharpeness given your distance, focal length and aperture.
Hope this helps.
Nikon Shooter
It's all about the moment...
Well, first of all, thank you for replying, I never realized that the 800 had a slave sensor built into it. I thought that SU-4 mode was some sort of master mode, but never bothered to try it.
http://nikonclspracticalguide.blogspot.com/
It's not what you look at that matters: Its what you see!
Nikon
http://www.time2smile.smugmug.com
I'm just thinking that 1 flash just isn't enough power if I use HSS.
Now, I have another question. If I'm using high speed sync, and the flash lets just say has a range of 6 feet. If I need or want to be 10 feet from the subject, the flash (if used on camera) wouldn't be powerful enough, no doubt. But if I moved the flash up so that it was say 5-6 feet from the subject, so 4-5 feet in front of me, would that work? Or not?
I've sort of done a few test shots, and think this would work, but maybe smone else would give me a definate yes or no.
It's not what you look at that matters: Its what you see!
Nikon
http://www.time2smile.smugmug.com
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Helpful! Thanks!
I'm learning some things with this topic. I'm happy.
I think for now I'm going the following route. I'm meeting a friend in Thailand this fall and what better gift then a used flash! So I bought a couple more SB-600's on ebay, one of which I'll give to my friend when I see her.
I'll put them on my tripod, (how I'm not quite sure right now) or pick up a goodwill clunker if I can find one. I'll move them as close to the action as I can, and use the SB-800 to trigger them. Hopefully this will work better.
Now, I have a question. With these articles, they say that aperture controls flash as well. So if you find that the flash is too powerful, you can pick a slower shutter speed, and use a smaller aperture. I understand this, correct?
So what about ND filters? Lets say to expose for the sky, I need (totally random numbers here) 1/320th @ F14. So if I was to bring the shutter speed up to 1/640th, into High speed sync, and drop the aperture to F8, that would extend the efective power of the flash, though the HSS would negate some of that.
On the other hand, what if I slap a ND filter on there. Would that have the same effect as just closing down the lens a bit, or would that give me a bigger flash range?
Does this make sense?
It is amazing how much light a speedlite will throw when you are shooting at 400 or 800 ISO.
You must shoot in Manual mode for your camera. If the proper exposure for the sky is 1/320th at f14, then use a shutter speed of 1/1250 for an under exposure of sky by two stops. If you want to open your aperture to f8, you will need to raise your shutter speed to 1/4000th or higher but HSS will allow this easily.
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
So, higher ISO would require either shorter shutter speeds, or even smaller aperture, right? Would that negate the benefits of picking a higher ISO? Im a bit confused here.
If I did pick a higher ISO, which would cause a flash hit more? Higher shutter speed (max sync is 320, so I'd be using HSS) or smaller aperture?
At ISO 100, your flash will need to be within 4-6 feet to over drive sunlight, but at ISO 400, you can move your flashes farther back from say 4 feet at ISO 100, past 5.6 feet, to 8 feet at ISO 400, and to 16 feet at ISO 1600. You aperture would stay the same with each ISO and flash distance.
Bear in mind, moving a manual flash from 2.8 to 4 feet costs one stop of light, 4 feet to 5.6 feet costs another stop of light. SO moving your flash to subject distance from 2.8 feet to 5.6 feet costs 2 stops of light. Raising your ISO from 100 to 400 restores those stops of light you lost moving the flash from 2.8 feet to 5.6 feet. Raising your ISO to 1600 let you move the flash from 5.6 feet, past 8 feet, to 11 feet.
HSS allows you to use a faster shutter speed to under expose ambient light in the background and sky, which is what I think you are wanting to do with your skateboarders, right?
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
Ok, so basically, if I understand this, if all of your light comes from the flash, then higher ISO's would help, and require no further exposure adjustments. It would just allow you to move your flash back a bit.
On the other hand, if you are using your flash for fill (as I mainly am) and you are shooting a heavily backlit scene with high ambient lighting, higher ISO's WOULD require exposure compensation, since the ambient lighting is already too bright. This would in turn simply negate the higher ISO's, since the ratio of flash fill to ambient doens't change. Correct? This is what was confusing me in the earlier post.
I am trying to use the HSS, but I've found that the flash that is powerful enough without using HSS due to the camera having a higher sync speed is no longer powerful enough with a camera using HSS for the same shutter speed. I was confused about this, but it sounds like either continueing to use the D70, or getting more flashes is the only real answer, outside of perhaps modifying the flash output or maybe putting reflectors in the scene. Is this correct?
Raising your ISO won't make any real difference if the flash is just for fill, because you are still using ambient for your main light.
I thought you wanted to use flash as the light for the skate boarder, and ambient for background like they do on the Strobist. This lets you have different lighting brightness for the subject and the background
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
Well, what I'm trying to do is balance the light. I set the camera to expose for the sky, but since the skater is always much darker, even if the sun isn't behind him, then I need flash to light up the skater.
Exhibit A, Sky more or less properly exposed, but without flash:
Exhibit B Exposure set for sky, then flash used for the skater.
Obviously, You could say that Photo A is set too dark regardless. Its not my finest shot, but just shows what I'm trying to do. I'd consider this fill flash, but maybe I'm using the wrong term?
Of course, yes, I am using the flash to independently light the skater, as he clearly comes out dark or sillouhetted.
Set your camera in manual mode, and figure out the exposure for the sky. Add your flash or flashes in iTTL, and shoot with the camera in Manual Mode. You should rock right along with this technique. But this is not fill flash shooting, you are using the flash in iTTL to correctly light up the foreground subject. I do this in the Canon world the same way. The real beauty is that you can under expose the back ground by upping your shutter speed, and still light the subject correctly with flash.
If you set your camera to Tungsten color balance, and gel your flash with a CTO gel, you can capture a very deep blue sky and a correctly color balanced subject with the CTO gelled flash lighting.
Cool shots are coming for you!!
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
Ah, I'd just been reading about this "cross prossessing" (ok, ok, its not, but its pretty creative) and using gels for such things. Thanks for the help. I really did learn a lot from this topic.
To be honest, I had flashes, I loved them, but I hardly used them to even a fraction of their potential. I just knew that they were vastly superior to on camera flash. Then I finally figured out how to get them to function off camera outdoors and I can't wait to shoot with them again! Now if only I had a bigger pool of subjects. Can't shoot the same skaters every day of the week now can I?
Set your ISO at 200 or whatever the native setting is on your camera. Some Nikons go down to "Lo 1" which is supposed to be ISO 100 but it's really more like 160 and it has negative effects on dynamic range so don't bother.
Set your shutter speed to the max sync value without going into Auto FP territory. This gives you the maximum advantage over the ambient light since shutter speed doesn't impact you flash but does cut the ambient.
Now, find the exposure you want for the background by adjusting the aperture. Doing it this way you're getting the most efficiency out of your flash. You can fire at full power if necessary and you're actually getting full power, not the crippled Auto FP version of full power.
Now add your flash in, adjusting the power level until you find a setting that works. If you go to full power and you're still not getting enough light then your only option is to add another flash or move the one you have closer. I'd put the flash as close as possible to begin with, like just out of the frame of my shot, to maximize the efficiency. Also, zoom the flash in as much as you can while still lighting your subject effectively. You don't want to waste photons lighting the sidewalk which has plenty of sunlight falling on it already.
Even if you're getting what you want at 1/1 power, if you have another flash you'd be better off doubling them up to decrease recycle times and improve battery life. Although, depending on how much you want to underexpose the background and what the ambient light is like (this will be easier on a cloudy day) you might get what you need out of one bare flash at 1/2 power.
http://blog.timkphotography.com
Good hint about the zoom function.
So I've got a more firepower on the way, and I'll put that up on the tripod or stands or wahtever I've got. This will increase the overall power, as well as allow me to have faster cycle times, less workload on the flashes, etc.
Now, I left the flash on wide angle mainly because I wanted to give myself leeway when the shutter went off. If the guy was ahead or behind the beam of light, then I might get a great shot, but his face would be too dark. Does this make sense to you? Given this, would you still recommend zooming in? Maybe only a little bit?
In practice, I have found that the output power from the flash in TTL can vary drastically depending on whether you are shooting at or lower than the camera's native flash synch speed verses using a higher speed and HSS.
If you need a full power flash burst, then staying below the native synch speed might be the key to getting your result.
Jeff
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Yep, I wish the native was higher, but it just isn't. Action is blurring a bit.
On the other hand, I've thought about dragging the shutter with rear curtain sync, but so far, I've had some problems with enough flash power during the day to do that with all the ND's and stopping down I had to use.
MORE POWER!
Try shooting at 1/400th. 1/500th, or even 1/600th with your speedlites in manual output, with the camera in manual mode and see if you get an entire frame exposed, or if you begin to see an edge of the frame go dark due to the shutter closing shutting off the light from the flash. If the whole frame is exposed with the flash, you can use that shutter speed.
I know the D-70 is listed as having a synch speed of ~ 1/250th, but try higher shutter speeds and see if they don't synch for you. That will let you use the flash without High Speed Synch, which is significantly more powerful, but at higher shutter speeds to limit ambient light.
The Strobist has had lots of threads about balancing sunlight and flash, and even over-driving sunlight with battery powered speedlites...
The next step up in lighting is a pair of battery powered monolights, which will easily over drive sunlight. But if your exposure in manual mode, under exposes for sunlight by 2 stops, the job is even easier for your speedlites to light the fore ground subject properly
I have been looking for a link on Strobist about this discussion, but have not found what I want yet. YOu might find this interesting though as it is about what we are talking aobut - http://strobist.blogspot.com/2006/06/free-custom-backdrops-delivered-daily.html
http://strobist.blogspot.com/2008/04/on-assignment-controlling-daylight-pt-1.html
Hacking the synch speed on D-70 http://strobist.blogspot.com/2007/05/hacking-your-cameras-sync-speed-pt-1.html
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
A solution for full power at a higher synch speed might be available for you with the newer version of the pocketwizard triggers. The "flex" system touts high speed synch, but it works differently than the canon or nikon versions and allows full powered useage....specifically for those who are attempting to over power daylight. Im still not sure whether the gained spoeed would be enough to stop the action for you, but it might be something worth researching.
Jeff
-Need help with Dgrin?; Wedding Photography Resources
-My Website - Blog - Tips for Senior Portraiture