There are plenty of programs out there that will allow you to assign keywords to a batch of images. Maybe Google something like IPTC batch keywords.
Personally, I use ThumbsPlus from Cerious Software and I keyword every image I take, usually via batch mode initially, then individually where required.
Individually. Currently I use Photoshop's File Browser to do this but there must be a better way. I'm updating to CS2 soon, so maybe the Bridge is better at this. Or maybe I need to buy iVMP instead. Dunno. Bear in mind the only thing I need to do individually is the number itself. I can bulk-keyword the track name and the event date easily enough with CS. I do the keywording at the same time I sort through the photos decide what to keep and what to pitch, so its not as bad as it sounds.
Hi Bill,
I'm looking around for a way to do bulk keywording and have not found anything I'm satisfied with yet. Did you say you did the bulk keywording with CS? If you did, how did you do it? With an action? Could you give me some guidance?
I'm looking around for a way to do bulk keywording and have not found anything I'm satisfied with yet. Did you say you did the bulk keywording with CS? If you did, how did you do it? With an action? Could you give me some guidance?
You just select all the images you want to keyword in the File Browser, then click on the keyword you want to assign.
New thoughts for Pro-Pricing
I've been struggling with setting up discounts, sales, etc and putting lots of thoughts into how to best implement this.
For a time I did set up sport galleries to discount prices for x amount of days (usually 1-2 weeks) then the prices went up. I found that worked pretty good at encouraging people to order right away but it was a BIG pain in the rear to remember which galleries I'd discounted and when to change them.
Andy you mentioned a possible box to tick to e-maill us a reminder to change prices... would this be something that could be implemented on a gallery by gallery basis as a smugmug service? How would it work.
Here's 2 things I think would enable this to work better:
1) Addat least 2 more Gallery Price structures. We currently have Portfolio only and if we want it any other way we need to customize it on a per gallery basis. Add Portfolio 2 & 3 ( or custom 1, 2, etc. which we could set up to be our discounted sale price list(s).
2) And here's the biggie to make this work easily!!! Add a way to see a LIST/chart of ALL our galleries at once & the current price structure they fall under.
Across the top of the page have a list of price plan structures (Portfolio 1, 2, 3, etc... if we could name these yeah... that would be even better).
This list would then have little buttons for us to quickly run down and check off which price structure is to go with which gallery.
This way I could see at a glance if I'd left x gallery in the discount list to long. And quickly change it to the Normal Portfolio price list, While at the same time make changes to all my other galleries.
Would something like this work for others?????
Let me know what you'll think? Most importanly lets each keep trying to think of creative but good options that smugmug might be able to easily implement for us.
New thoughts pro - pricing ADD-ON
I just realized someone will probably post back immediatly with a 'you can allready set galleries on a per gallery price list'.
Yes... but the way it's set up it's a pain.
One... you have to remember which gallery is set at which price currently to know which one to 'apply to' and
Two... it would just be so much easier to create more than one default price lists such as Portfolio that we could quickly & easily choose from when creating the gallery and changing it later.
And I REALLY want a list to see how each gallery is set to price with one glance. As it is I have to go to every gallery and check it.
Matthew SavilleRegistered Users, Retired ModPosts: 3,352Major grins
edited November 25, 2005
CS2 does offer quite a few improvements in these aspects, I think. Mostly stuff I haven't gotten into yet lol, but I'm beginning to discover the powerful-ness of Bridge. You can do some amazing stuff with it, with regards to organization and classification. Some didn't like the changes from CS, but I'm digging it bigtime.
For what it's worth, WHCC and their partner sites offer packages and the like. However, you must kiss goodbye the beautiful interface and go-between that is smugmug, and say hello to FTP uploading and intricate pricing/ordering rules etc. Currently this is an issue on my table and Smugmug wins hands down for beautiful, easy, customer-support intensive service, whereas WHCC is taking the cake once that's all taken care of and their prints leave the lab, un-molested, never with "spam", and always with MY name on the back. Oh and 2nd day shipped, for free. :-D
I just realized someone will probably post back immediatly with a 'you can allready set galleries on a per gallery price list'.
Yes... but the way it's set up it's a pain.
One... you have to remember which gallery is set at which price currently to know which one to 'apply to' and
Two... it would just be so much easier to create more than one default price lists such as Portfolio that we could quickly & easily choose from when creating the gallery and changing it later.
And I REALLY want a list to see how each gallery is set to price with one glance. As it is I have to go to every gallery and check it.
Thanks,
Cindy
I'm not arguing against your feature requests - I agree they would be useful. But, there are some work-arounds that can alleviate some of your pain in the meantime.
You can create your own pricing templates in smugmug. Here's how. Create several private galleries (galleries never intended to be viewed by anyone but you), one for each pricing template you want to have. Put a couple photos in each. Names the galleries to describe the pricing template that each one stands for (you can give them names like "Wedding prices", "Soccer team prices", "Portrait pose prices", etc... Set prices in each gallery according to how you want each pricing template to be. Because these galleries are private they are not meant to be viewed directly by the public, but they will still show up as one of the galleries that you can set prices from.
Now, when you want to set prices to one of your templates, you just have to scroll through the gallery list to find the named template that matches what you are looking for and apply the pricing from that gallery.
If you've already set some pricing on existing galleries, you can even create a template gallery and set it's pricing from one of your existing galleries.
John, I use your pricing idea currently and it does work well, but as Cindy says that listing idea with all the galleries and the price templates attached to them would be a great step forward. I would add to it the DATE that the template took effect or even better, the NUMBER OF DAYS that pricing structure has been active.
Smugmug Please, please move print packages to high priority for us event photographers, please. I know it's hard... but it's certainly very possible and would increase your profit considerably. At present we event photographers get to pocket what would have otherwise been your %... but we'd rather just let you handle the printing end of it so we can shoot more pictures.
At the risk of getting flamed, I solved this by starting to offer my event photos on another service that DOES all of the things we event photographers have been asking for from Smugmug. I'm *amazed* at the increase in sales I've experienced due to these new features.
What are these new features that I'm using on the other service?
1) Coupons. At the event I now tell people that if they want to see their proofs they need to prepay $20, and for their $20 they get a coupon for $20 worth of free prints from my site. When I have $20 from that customer I know I'm not wasting my time preparing their proofs for display. Most customers buy more than $20 when they order - the average is currently $62 per order.
2) Uploading proofs for ordering, followed later by processed images only for images the customer orders. For the event photographer this is a HUGE time savings. I process the proofs quickly and resize them to 600 pixels and upload them in no time. When the orders come in, I open the raw photo, custom process it for exposure, contrast, saturation, then crop to the correct size for the print or item ordered, sharpen, sign and save with a code that indicates the product the file is optimized for. I upload and "process" the image, the service sends the image off to be printed and sent to the customer. (This other service also uses EZPrints, so I'm getting the same high quality prints and products I get from my Smugmug galleries.)
I spend a few minutes each day preparing the prints for orders. Previously I'd spend 2-3 days processing each and every event image before I could upload to Smugmug, because each image had to be ready to print. :-(
These 2 features alone have resulted in dramatic sales increases of over my sales at prior events. Further, this saved me 95% of the time it took to process my event photos for uploading to Smugmug, and 95% of the time it took to upload those photos to Smugmug. I made more money from just one event (in just one month) with this other service than I made with all of my events and private photo shoots combined on Smugmug over the last year.
In addition, this other service also offers custom watermarking, including the option to watermark with an uploaded image or with custom text, including customize size and opacity. And they offer print packages. My package sales have not been very significant, but I haven't put together a lot of packages yet.
I prepaid for 1 year at Smugmug and that year is coming to an end soon. If I renew my Smugmug account (I'm still pondering this option), I will be renewing at a lower price point since most of the additional features I wanted to use that were only available at the pro level haven't meet my expectations or needs.
So, this is my wake-up call to Smugmug. Other services ARE offering the features Event Photographers have been clamoring for. These other service might not have as much style as Smugmug offers, but I'll swap style for functionality (and sales) anyday.
jc
JC Dill - Equine Photographer, San Francisco & San Jose http://portfolio.jcdill.com "Chance favors the prepared mind." ~ Ansel Adams "Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it." ~ Terry Pratchett
At the risk of getting flamed, I solved this by starting to offer my event photos on another service that DOES all of the things we event photographers have been asking for from Smugmug. I'm *amazed* at the increase in sales I've experienced due to these new features.
What are these new features that I'm using on the other service?
1) Coupons. At the event I now tell people that if they want to see their proofs they need to prepay $20, and for their $20 they get a coupon for $20 worth of free prints from my site. When I have $20 from that customer I know I'm not wasting my time preparing their proofs for display. Most customers buy more than $20 when they order - the average is currently $62 per order.
2) Uploading proofs for ordering, followed later by processed images only for images the customer orders. For the event photographer this is a HUGE time savings. I process the proofs quickly and resize them to 600 pixels and upload them in no time. When the orders come in, I open the raw photo, custom process it for exposure, contrast, saturation, then crop to the correct size for the print or item ordered, sharpen, sign and save with a code that indicates the product the file is optimized for. I upload and "process" the image, the service sends the image off to be printed and sent to the customer. (This other service also uses EZPrints, so I'm getting the same high quality prints and products I get from my Smugmug galleries.)
I spend a few minutes each day preparing the prints for orders. Previously I'd spend 2-3 days processing each and every event image before I could upload to Smugmug, because each image had to be ready to print. :-(
These 2 features alone have resulted in dramatic sales increases of over my sales at prior events. Further, this saved me 95% of the time it took to process my event photos for uploading to Smugmug, and 95% of the time it took to upload those photos to Smugmug. I made more money from just one event (in just one month) with this other service than I made with all of my events and private photo shoots combined on Smugmug over the last year.
In addition, this other service also offers custom watermarking, including the option to watermark with an uploaded image or with custom text, including customize size and opacity. And they offer print packages. My package sales have not been very significant, but I haven't put together a lot of packages yet.
I prepaid for 1 year at Smugmug and that year is coming to an end soon. If I renew my Smugmug account (I'm still pondering this option), I will be renewing at a lower price point since most of the additional features I wanted to use that were only available at the pro level haven't meet my expectations or needs.
So, this is my wake-up call to Smugmug. Other services ARE offering the features Event Photographers have been clamoring for. These other service might not have as much style as Smugmug offers, but I'll swap style for functionality (and sales) anyday.
jc
Hi JC,
Many thanks for posting. Proof and reupload, and custom watermarks are extremely high on our priority list. Thanks for making it so clear why it's important to you event photogs.
Many thanks for posting. Proof and reupload, and custom watermarks are extremely high on our priority list. Thanks for making it so clear why it's important to you event photogs.
All the best,
Andy
SmugMug
Andy, I didn't hear you mention coupons on your priority list? I just want to make it clear that proof, reupload and custom watermarks are very low on my priority list. To tell the truth, they are not even on my priority list and I'm an event photographer too.
But COUPONS are my absolute number 1. I love a lot about smugmug but I really feel that coupons are necessary for my business. This is not just a convenience feature, it will have a big impact on sales (both Smugmug's and mine). And I know this is true because I've tested it. Since I continue to hear nothing but it's too hard to implement I will be forced to check out other services. Maybe I'll use 2 services, or maybe this other service will meet my needs. We'll see.
JC's message should certainly be a wakeup call to Smugmug. Please consider this message a strong second of that wakeup call.
Andy, I didn't hear you mention coupons on your priority list? I just want to make it clear that proof, reupload and custom watermarks are very low on my priority list. To tell the truth, they are not even on my priority list and I'm an event photographer too.
But COUPONS are my absolute number 1. I love a lot about smugmug but I really feel that coupons are necessary for my business. This is not just a convenience feature, it will have a big impact on sales (both Smugmug's and mine). And I know this is true because I've tested it. Since I continue to hear nothing but it's too hard to implement I will be forced to check out other services. Maybe I'll use 2 services, or maybe this other service will meet my needs. We'll see.
JC's message should certainly be a wakeup call to Smugmug. Please consider this message a strong second of that wakeup call.
later, Al
Hi Al, I can promise you that we're awake we read, and listen to every single request here on dgrin, and via our help@smugmug.com email.
Onethumb said this about coupons and I've repeated it a bunch of times... it's something we'd like to do but we're always faced with some mathematical issues, as well as cart-complexity issues. We talk about it all the time, but I can't promise if or when we'll have them.
We'd be sorry to see you use another service - but we do understand how important coupons are to you.
Onethumb said this about coupons and I've repeated it a bunch of times... it's something we'd like to do but we're always faced with some mathematical issues, as well as cart-complexity issues. We talk about it all the time, but I can't promise if or when we'll have them.
We'd be sorry to see you use another service - but we do understand how important coupons are to you.
I wish I had a better answer for you,
Thanks Andy,
I just read all of that Onethumb thread. An interesting read and I agree strongly with the users. Those ideas all sound great to me. I'm baffled as why you can't at least come up with some sort of compromise to give us something in this area.
Put restrictions on the coupon. We only want it to work for our galleries anyway. There must be a way to mark it only good for a certain photographer's gallery. The way I set up my galleries I don't think there is that much crossover into other photographer's galleries. I don't restrict it but my events are specific to my customers. I imagine most event photographers are similar.
Oh well, I know you've heard me. I will be spending the day setting up a gallery on this other service. There is no sign up fee but there are restrictions on upload storage so maybe a dual system will work for me.
You do realize that the way Smugmug is set up that it could become the main storage area and this other site could get all the promotion sales? Time to stop saying how hard it is and attack it in my humble opinion. I'd much rather keep all my business with you.
Onethumb said this about coupons and I've repeated it a bunch of times... it's something we'd like to do but we're always faced with some mathematical issues, as well as cart-complexity issues. We talk about it all the time, but I can't promise if or when we'll have them.
The use of coupons mentioned in this thread (basically, a pre-paid dollar amount to the customer from the photographer) is different than the coupon mentioned in Onethumb's thread (which is a % discount). I agree the discount method has potential mathematical pricing difficulties. However, the pre-paid coupon route does not have that particular problem. Possibly pre-paid coupons would be easier than discount coupons?
The use of coupons mentioned in this thread (basically, a pre-paid dollar amount to the customer from the photographer) is different than the coupon mentioned in Onethumb's thread (which is a % discount). I agree the discount method has potential mathematical pricing difficulties. However, the pre-paid coupon route does not have that particular problem. Possibly pre-paid coupons would be easier than discount coupons?
Thanks Bill for the clarification. This is something that we're discussing. Thanks also to everyone for their input here in this thread, it's really valuable and we appreciate it so much.
No promises on if/when but we're talking about it!
I would just like to voice an opinion here on this and other related topics. I joined smugmug in order to sale and post my photos for MY customers easily and have them be able to purchase on line and without having to bother me.
With that said, If there was any way on earth I could opt out of the typical smugmug thought pattern and just have my site, my customers and my features I would do it in a second. I did not buy into your services because I think I'll sale a tone of pictures to other people (not my customers) on your site. I joined for the benefits to my customers only.
My largest and really my only problem with your services is that you limit my functions because you are allowing people to purchase from 100 different photographers at once. That might be great for everyone else, but me personally its very annoying have such a limiting shopping cart experience just because of they way you have chosen to setup your services.
I am paying a yearly subscription as well as smugmug takes 15% of my profits to further support their services. It would be nice if we could have a little more available to us for all this. It might not mean much at this point, but if you ever loose me as a customer its going to most likely be because of these types of issues.
I would love to have the option to opt in or out of your typical business model. If I opt out then you don't provide any of my photos in customer searches, but you allow me more options in my shopping cart to support my own customers. Such as back buttons when they clear a shopping cart, coupons, qty discount rates as well as a little customization of the cart itself so that it fits in with the rest of my template layouts.
From a programming perspective this would not be that big a deal and would add an extra layer to your services for your professional clients.
With that said, If there was any way on earth I could opt out of the typical smugmug thought pattern and just have my site, my customers and my features I would do it in a second. I did not buy into your services because I think I'll sale a tone of pictures to other people (not my customers) on your site. I joined for the benefits to my customers only.
I'm not trying to be flippant when I say this but its obvious that you CAN opt out of the typical smugmug thought pattern. Joining Smugmug is entirely voluntary of course. You can have your own site developed that tailors exactly to your needs if you wish. Or a switch to Photo Reflect or Exposure Manager, etc.
There are things I do and don't like about Smugmug. There are features I would like have added that are not there yet. Some will get there, some will not. But for now, for the price I pay for Smugmug, going it alone or with the other services I've seen is a step down from what I currently have. Its why I stay where I'm at.
I can understand people wanting improvements to Smugmug. What I can't understand is how personally some people seem to take the "limitations" of Smugmug. As if SM is out to screw you somehow. Chill people. This is a business. They offer a particular service for a particular price. You either like it or you don't. You either spend your money with this merchant or with another.
I would just like to voice an opinion here on this and other related topics. I joined smugmug in order to sale and post my photos for MY customers easily and have them be able to purchase on line and without having to bother me.
With that said, If there was any way on earth I could opt out of the typical smugmug thought pattern and just have my site, my customers and my features I would do it in a second. I did not buy into your services because I think I'll sale a tone of pictures to other people (not my customers) on your site. I joined for the benefits to my customers only.
Are you saying that you don't want the SmugMug Guarantee that you link on your site? Most of our pros really love it that we handle any issues for their customers, thereby freeing up their time to shoot, and get more customers!
My largest and really my only problem with your services is that you limit my functions because you are allowing people to purchase from 100 different photographers at once. That might be great for everyone else, but me personally its very annoying have such a limiting shopping cart experience just because of they way you have chosen to setup your services.
I'm not sure what we're limiting here - could you please elaborate? As I've said in other threads, we're constantly innovating and offering new features. And I and others on the team have commented on stuff that we're trying to come out with -- listening to the suggestions from our customers. Some things take longer than others, though, and we appreciate your patience.
I am paying a yearly subscription as well as smugmug takes 15% of my profits to further support their services. It would be nice if we could have a little more available to us for all this. It might not mean much at this point, but if you ever loose me as a customer its going to most likely be because of these types of issues.
15% fee covers the complete cost of the transaction, shopping cart functionality, and customer service - and our guarantee. If you don't see value in it well, then, I'm not sure what I can say to convince you! What I can tell you is that we deal with pro's customers all day long - far and away the majority of help is provided within 15 minutes, almost all within an hour - and rarely, longer. This is 24/7 365 days a year. I know, because I was re-doing some pro's customers orders on Thanksgiving... (a new fellow, he didn't quite understand calibration and color issues fully, so I redid by hand, an entire order).
I would love to have the option to opt in or out of your typical business model. If I opt out then you don't provide any of my photos in customer searches, but you allow me more options in my shopping cart to support my own customers. Such as back buttons when they clear a shopping cart, coupons, qty discount rates as well as a little customization of the cart itself so that it fits in with the rest of my template layouts.
We've covered the cart customization issue here many times on this forum - we cannot allow cobranding or any customization in the cart, as it's part of the secure part of our site - necessary for the secure transactions - and our dealings with your customer's credit card.
From a programming perspective this would not be that big a deal and would add an extra layer to your services for your professional clients.
Just my 2 cents...
It's really interesting to watch an engineer read this type of statement - what may seem trivial to a lay person is often in fact, quite complicated.
We don't claim to be a site for everyone, Glenn. We do try really super hard though, to provide a beautiful viewing and buying experience, and world-class customer support - for our pros, and for their customers, too.
We hope you'll stay. Either way, thank you so very much for the valuable input.
I don't think anyone has said anything about smugmug being out to screw anyone. I also think it should be obvious that I think they are the best solution in town or I wouldn't be with them. However, anytime I see anyone ask for a process change or enhancement, we get the same answers. "Can't because its possible someone will be buying from more than one photographer". That just seems a rediculous response when I would imagine the majority of their sales come from single photographer orders. Maybe I'm wrong but I just don't see that many people going to smugmug and buying from 10 photographers in a single setting. But again, I don't have access to smugmug's records to know anything about this...
However, good or not, its not free and we do pay for it. Therefore we all have the right to our opinions. You are happy and that is great. I am happy but would like to have things work the way it would make more sense for MY customers. I am not interested in limiting my customers just because its possible to order from more photographers at the same time...
Andy, It could be funny to see them read my statement, however, I am a software engineer so I do know quite a bit about what it takes to do things. While I'm not an expert at CSS I do know quite a bit about the other aspects of how things work and what it takes to do what.
As far as your guarantee, I don't see anywhere that I said it was a bad thing or that I wasn't interested in it. Here is a very simple but very negative issue that you can't fix because of the fact that my customer Could order (but won't be) from other photographers. If they mess up and want to clear their cart and start over, you leave them on a page that has no links back to my site. Then they have only the option to hit a back button that shows them a full cart again. Granted if they hit back one more time it will still be empty but most people don't know this. They look for a way to get back...
You have no abilities to do qty discounts or pricing packages, again for the same reasons. So far any enhancement I've asked for related to the shopping cart has received the exact same answer.
I'm also not speaking of the backend order processing pages as I fully agree that you could not possibly give us access to those parts of the process, however, the shopping cart page is nothing more than a front end to choose products.
Again, I'm not upset and am happy with smugmug, just stating an opinion on an observation that you guys may not notice you do. ...
Andy, It could be funny to see them read my statement, however, I am a software engineer so I do know quite a bit about what it takes to do things. While I'm not an expert at CSS I do know quite a bit about the other aspects of how things work and what it takes to do what.
As far as your guarantee, I don't see anywhere that I said it was a bad thing or that I wasn't interested in it. Here is a very simple but very negative issue that you can't fix because of the fact that my customer Could order (but won't be) from other photographers. If they mess up and want to clear their cart and start over, you leave them on a page that has no links back to my site. Then they have only the option to hit a back button that shows them a full cart again. Granted if they hit back one more time it will still be empty but most people don't know this. They look for a way to get back...
You have no abilities to do qty discounts or pricing packages, again for the same reasons. So far any enhancement I've asked for related to the shopping cart has received the exact same answer.
I'm also not speaking of the backend order processing pages as I fully agree that you could not possibly give us access to those parts of the process, however, the shopping cart page is nothing more than a front end to choose products.
Again, I'm not upset and am happy with smugmug, just stating an opinion on an observation that you guys may not notice you do. ...
Hi Glenn, thanks again for posting - we really appreciate your direct feedback!
Just remember this was the goal, and is still the mission, vision of the company (I assume, since it is on the homepage). Yes all the things we want would be great, but the origin of the company wasn't the ultimate pro's profitable, fully customizable, everything you want site.
Hey I want improvements but realize everything is not as easy as snapping your finger. The things they have accomplished so far have exceeded my expectations.
I think the pre-paid coupon is a great possibility and maybe be much easier to implement, maybe not.
Hope those who coupons are important to figure a out a way to do it here or there.:):
"A photo is like a hamburger. You can get one from McDonalds for $1, one from Chili's for $5, or one from Ruth's Chris for $15. You usually get what you pay for, but don't expect a Ruth's Chris burger at a McDonalds price, if you want that, go cook it yourself." - me
Just remember this was the goal, and is still the mission, vision of the company (I assume, since it is on the homepage). Yes all the things we want would be great, but the origin of the company wasn't the ultimate pro's profitable, fully customizable, everything you want site.
Hey I want improvements but realize everything is not as easy as snapping your finger. The things they have accomplished so far have exceeded my expectations.
I think the pre-paid coupon is a great possibility and maybe be much easier to implement, maybe not.
Hope those who coupons are important to figure a out a way to do it here or there.:):
I don't see your point. Photo sharing? How does that say: "We let you buy photos from 10 photographers at once?"
I'm sorry, but at some point you have to just say it... If you are making the majority of your money on tom and betty and aren't really that concerned with making any changes at all because 80% of your sales are multi-photographer sales, then just say it. At least I won't hang around hoping. I can either decide to stay, based on its own merits or go somewhere else. Everything in between is just excuses to me.
I'd love to know what percent of sales are multi-photographer purchases.
Also, I don't look at the fact that 95% of your customers are happy. Remember, I'm a software engineer too and the one thing I've learned is that no matter what things you do, most people will never know you did them. Most people either don't pay attention, or just plain don't care about anything. The accept things for the way they are. Because I write software for a living I am always trying to improve things. Of the 700 business customers I have to support, I can tell you that less than 2% of them challenge us. The rest, they just do their thing and never tax the system...
I'll stop though because it sounds like I'm the only one with this opinion...
Not to beat a dead horse, but this is exactly what I mean when I say that Smugmug doesn't completely set expectations properly. There is a huge difference between "I sell my photos on my smugmug-hosted web site and they take 15% of the purchase price for their services" versus "My photos are for sale at smugmug and when they sell one, they send me 85% of the purchase price". A lot of people expect the former and are frustrated when they find out it's the latter.
My comment has nothing to do with whether 85/15 is "worth it" or whether smugmug should or should not be run this way. I'm just pointing out what I see as a very common misunderstanding that could be better addressed at the very beginning.
Not to beat a dead horse, but this is exactly what I mean when I say that Smugmug doesn't completely set expectations properly. There is a huge difference between "I sell my photos on my smugmug-hosted web site and they take 15% of the purchase price for their services" versus "My photos are for sale at smugmug and when they sell one, they send me 85% of the purchase price". A lot of people expect the former and are frustrated when they find out it's the latter.
My comment has nothing to do with whether 85/15 is "worth it" or whether smugmug should or should not be run this way. I'm just pointing out what I see as a very common misunderstanding that could be better addressed at the very beginning.
Hi Flyingpylon, thanks for posting.
I must be dense today, becuase I'm not following you at all. Are we not being clear on what the 15% is for?
I must be dense today, becuase I'm not following you at all. Are we not being clear on what the 15% is for?
No, that's not it exactly. It's the business relationship that's not clear to many people. It took me a while to catch on as well.
Many people assume that smugmug is providing them a web-based store to sell their products as they see fit. They assume smugmug should be a transparent technology provider that's helps the photographer transact business with their customers.
However, I feel smugmug operates more as a consignment store or outsourced fulfillment house. The photographer is more of a vendor that places their photos in the smugmug-owned store where they are sold along with those from other vendors. The photographer can customize their "shelves" in the store, but in the end the customers check out at smugmug's registers and they are smugmug's customers.
The problem is that when people assume they are operating under the first scenario, they feel justified in expecting certain features or functionality that would help them run *their* store the way *they* want. But since in reality the second scenario is more correct, certain things are either not possible or are inherently more complex. People get upset, and it just seems like if the misunderstanding had been avoided with some better information up front, everyone would be happier.
I think smugmug's business model is somewhat unique (at least among photo sites), and people mistakenly assume it's something else. I think it needs to be made more clear how things work.
No, that's not it exactly. It's the business relationship that's not clear to many people. It took me a while to catch on as well.
Many people assume that smugmug is providing them a web-based store to sell their products as they see fit. They assume smugmug should be a transparent technology provider that's helps the photographer transact business with their customers.
However, I feel smugmug operates more as a consignment store or outsourced fulfillment house. The photographer is more of a vendor that places their photos in the smugmug-owned store where they are sold along with those from other vendors. The photographer can customize their "shelves" in the store, but in the end the customers check out at smugmug's registers and they are smugmug's customers.
I agree with Flyingpylon's assessment of how many people probably think SM operates versus how it actually operates. Think of an antique mall as an example. There may be 50 individual vendors under one roof who are renting floor space. But in the end, the customer goes to the Mall's check-out line and gives money to the Mall, not the antique dealer.
The thing is, with the antique mall example its pretty obvious what is going on to the customer. Not quite so with Smugmug.
My own customers often find this confusing as well. They believe they are buying from ME. Fortunately this has caused me little gripe so far, and the very few customer support issues I've had I have been able to re-direct to Smugmug to handle the issue. (and they do so quickly).
How to remedy this I'm not so sure. Since it has impacted me very little I've given little thought to this particular issue.
No, that's not it exactly. It's the business relationship that's not clear to many people. It took me a while to catch on as well.
Many people assume that smugmug is providing them a web-based store to sell their products as they see fit. They assume smugmug should be a transparent technology provider that's helps the photographer transact business with their customers.
However, I feel smugmug operates more as a consignment store or outsourced fulfillment house. The photographer is more of a vendor that places their photos in the smugmug-owned store where they are sold along with those from other vendors. The photographer can customize their "shelves" in the store, but in the end the customers check out at smugmug's registers and they are smugmug's customers.
The problem is that when people assume they are operating under the first scenario, they feel justified in expecting certain features or functionality that would help them run *their* store the way *they* want. But since in reality the second scenario is more correct, certain things are either not possible or are inherently more complex. People get upset, and it just seems like if the misunderstanding had been avoided with some better information up front, everyone would be happier.
I think smugmug's business model is somewhat unique (at least among photo sites), and people mistakenly assume it's something else. I think it needs to be made more clear how things work.
FlyingPylon - this is an excellent summary of what's going on in this argument.
It appears that most pros expect smugmug to be a "technology and infrastructure provider" and want smumug to get out of the way as much as possible letting the pro control as much of the customer interaction as they desire. Smugmug does not have that agenda. From seeing this debate for more than a year, it feels like smugmug wants as many pros as they can attract to hang out at smugmug, but they want everyone to know that the pros are hanging out at smugmug and they don't want to be "transparent" in any way. I understand that the customer needs to understand that support on print issues comes from smugmug and that the credit card statement will say smugmug on it, but those problems could be solved without denying the pros much of the experience they are asking for (like a branding presence in the cart, for example).
That leads to unfullfilled expectations for things like branding in the shopping cart, custom backprinting, discount coupons, print packages, retouch-on-demand, selling digital files, full HTML control of the page, better watermarks, etc... Some of those are just pro-features that smugmug hasn't gotten to yet, but several are exactly what FlyingPylon describes - a mismatch in expectation and agenda.
This thread about the smugmug link at the bottom of the page is an exact encapsulation of such an issue. A pro didn't like that the link made it too easy for his customers to see the non-marke-up print prices (consistent with the expectations of a transparent technology provider). Smugmug's answer was that customers need to know that smugmug itself is behind the fullfillment and service aspects of the pro's site (consistent with the consignment store model). Our response to smugmug was that the current link is a marketing/advertising link that doesn't do what pros want and doesn't do what smugmug said was the reason for having the link there in the first place.
The other main thing I think is going on here is that smugmug's main business isn't serving pros. Its main business is serving the masses who aren't after most of the things being asked for here. For reasons we don't know, they decided to make a pro-offering and to offer some pro-like features that were convenient for them to implement within their main system. But, I don't get the impression that they are really going to sleep at night thinking about how they can create a giant "pro" business serving people who make serious money off photography. Rather, it feels from the outside, that they are interested in finding ways to get more of their existing users to be attracted to a higher priced service offering by putting some compelling features into a "pro package", but aren't really trying to beat the other "pro services" out there. If they were, they simply couldn't ignore the types of things that an event photographer need to really drive business that were so aptly described earlier in the thread (coupons, retouch-on-demand, print packages, etc...).
I'd add one more thing that's actually a positive for smugmug. The reason you see people griping about this is because they like a lot that smugmug has to offer and it isn't easy to find some of the nice things that smugmug has elsewhere. But, at the same time, when pros get the feeling that smugmug just doens't share their "pro agenda", they get frustrated. They want things to work out at smugmug because there's a lot to like, but they start to sense that smugmug may not be going in the right direction for them.
P.S. It also doesn't help that smugmug never shares anything about upcoming features that would be interesting to pros. That means that you can never get any credit for anything that you are planning to do or are already working on. In fact, you can only get credit with your customers for things that are already delivered. I know you don't want to make promises that you can't keep, but keeping your customers in the dark about what you do want to do is probably not the smartest business decision if you want to keep the most vocal customers with the most unmet needs (your pros) unless you really aren't planning on doing much of it at all.
I'll also add, that if all the pros leave to go somewhere else, smugmugs photos they are making so much money on will dry up and they won't be making the sales they do today. If all you have is aunt susie and marian showing the family their photos then you'd basically become a snapfish...
I don't begin to claim that I bring enough business to smugmug yet for them to care much about whether I come or go, and I'm sure they are starting to wish I'd go, but their solution looks like it was designed for ma and pa with the pro thing being an after thought. It has a lot to offer I agree, however, with the things it lacks, I am beginning to think that $150/year plus 15% on top is a little much for what I'm getting. Don't get me wrong, I like most of what is available, but I just don't see this becoming a long lasting relationship with the constant reminders that I'm not the customer type they are mostly focused on...
I hope that changes but at the moment I'm not all that comfortable with where I am sitting...
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Personally, I use ThumbsPlus from Cerious Software and I keyword every image I take, usually via batch mode initially, then individually where required.
I'm looking around for a way to do bulk keywording and have not found anything I'm satisfied with yet. Did you say you did the bulk keywording with CS? If you did, how did you do it? With an action? Could you give me some guidance?
Thanks, Al
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
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later, Al
I've been struggling with setting up discounts, sales, etc and putting lots of thoughts into how to best implement this.
For a time I did set up sport galleries to discount prices for x amount of days (usually 1-2 weeks) then the prices went up. I found that worked pretty good at encouraging people to order right away but it was a BIG pain in the rear to remember which galleries I'd discounted and when to change them.
Andy you mentioned a possible box to tick to e-maill us a reminder to change prices... would this be something that could be implemented on a gallery by gallery basis as a smugmug service? How would it work.
Here's 2 things I think would enable this to work better:
1) Addat least 2 more Gallery Price structures. We currently have Portfolio only and if we want it any other way we need to customize it on a per gallery basis. Add Portfolio 2 & 3 ( or custom 1, 2, etc. which we could set up to be our discounted sale price list(s).
2) And here's the biggie to make this work easily!!! Add a way to see a LIST/chart of ALL our galleries at once & the current price structure they fall under.
Across the top of the page have a list of price plan structures (Portfolio 1, 2, 3, etc... if we could name these yeah... that would be even better).
This list would then have little buttons for us to quickly run down and check off which price structure is to go with which gallery.
This way I could see at a glance if I'd left x gallery in the discount list to long. And quickly change it to the Normal Portfolio price list, While at the same time make changes to all my other galleries.
Would something like this work for others?????
Let me know what you'll think? Most importanly lets each keep trying to think of creative but good options that smugmug might be able to easily implement for us.
Thanks to all & Happy Shooting!
I just realized someone will probably post back immediatly with a 'you can allready set galleries on a per gallery price list'.
Yes... but the way it's set up it's a pain.
One... you have to remember which gallery is set at which price currently to know which one to 'apply to' and
Two... it would just be so much easier to create more than one default price lists such as Portfolio that we could quickly & easily choose from when creating the gallery and changing it later.
And I REALLY want a list to see how each gallery is set to price with one glance. As it is I have to go to every gallery and check it.
Thanks,
Cindy
For what it's worth, WHCC and their partner sites offer packages and the like. However, you must kiss goodbye the beautiful interface and go-between that is smugmug, and say hello to FTP uploading and intricate pricing/ordering rules etc. Currently this is an issue on my table and Smugmug wins hands down for beautiful, easy, customer-support intensive service, whereas WHCC is taking the cake once that's all taken care of and their prints leave the lab, un-molested, never with "spam", and always with MY name on the back. Oh and 2nd day shipped, for free. :-D
Take care,
-Matt-
My SmugMug Portfolio • My Astro-Landscape Photo Blog • Dgrin Weddings Forum
I'm not arguing against your feature requests - I agree they would be useful. But, there are some work-arounds that can alleviate some of your pain in the meantime.
You can create your own pricing templates in smugmug. Here's how. Create several private galleries (galleries never intended to be viewed by anyone but you), one for each pricing template you want to have. Put a couple photos in each. Names the galleries to describe the pricing template that each one stands for (you can give them names like "Wedding prices", "Soccer team prices", "Portrait pose prices", etc... Set prices in each gallery according to how you want each pricing template to be. Because these galleries are private they are not meant to be viewed directly by the public, but they will still show up as one of the galleries that you can set prices from.
Now, when you want to set prices to one of your templates, you just have to scroll through the gallery list to find the named template that matches what you are looking for and apply the pricing from that gallery.
If you've already set some pricing on existing galleries, you can even create a template gallery and set it's pricing from one of your existing galleries.
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Thank you,
John, I use your pricing idea currently and it does work well, but as Cindy says that listing idea with all the galleries and the price templates attached to them would be a great step forward. I would add to it the DATE that the template took effect or even better, the NUMBER OF DAYS that pricing structure has been active.
later, Al
At the risk of getting flamed, I solved this by starting to offer my event photos on another service that DOES all of the things we event photographers have been asking for from Smugmug. I'm *amazed* at the increase in sales I've experienced due to these new features.
What are these new features that I'm using on the other service?
1) Coupons. At the event I now tell people that if they want to see their proofs they need to prepay $20, and for their $20 they get a coupon for $20 worth of free prints from my site. When I have $20 from that customer I know I'm not wasting my time preparing their proofs for display. Most customers buy more than $20 when they order - the average is currently $62 per order.
2) Uploading proofs for ordering, followed later by processed images only for images the customer orders. For the event photographer this is a HUGE time savings. I process the proofs quickly and resize them to 600 pixels and upload them in no time. When the orders come in, I open the raw photo, custom process it for exposure, contrast, saturation, then crop to the correct size for the print or item ordered, sharpen, sign and save with a code that indicates the product the file is optimized for. I upload and "process" the image, the service sends the image off to be printed and sent to the customer. (This other service also uses EZPrints, so I'm getting the same high quality prints and products I get from my Smugmug galleries.)
I spend a few minutes each day preparing the prints for orders. Previously I'd spend 2-3 days processing each and every event image before I could upload to Smugmug, because each image had to be ready to print. :-(
These 2 features alone have resulted in dramatic sales increases of over my sales at prior events. Further, this saved me 95% of the time it took to process my event photos for uploading to Smugmug, and 95% of the time it took to upload those photos to Smugmug. I made more money from just one event (in just one month) with this other service than I made with all of my events and private photo shoots combined on Smugmug over the last year.
In addition, this other service also offers custom watermarking, including the option to watermark with an uploaded image or with custom text, including customize size and opacity. And they offer print packages. My package sales have not been very significant, but I haven't put together a lot of packages yet.
I prepaid for 1 year at Smugmug and that year is coming to an end soon. If I renew my Smugmug account (I'm still pondering this option), I will be renewing at a lower price point since most of the additional features I wanted to use that were only available at the pro level haven't meet my expectations or needs.
So, this is my wake-up call to Smugmug. Other services ARE offering the features Event Photographers have been clamoring for. These other service might not have as much style as Smugmug offers, but I'll swap style for functionality (and sales) anyday.
jc
"Chance favors the prepared mind." ~ Ansel Adams
"Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it." ~ Terry Pratchett
Hi JC,
Many thanks for posting. Proof and reupload, and custom watermarks are extremely high on our priority list. Thanks for making it so clear why it's important to you event photogs.
All the best,
Andy
SmugMug
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Andy, I didn't hear you mention coupons on your priority list? I just want to make it clear that proof, reupload and custom watermarks are very low on my priority list. To tell the truth, they are not even on my priority list and I'm an event photographer too.
But COUPONS are my absolute number 1. I love a lot about smugmug but I really feel that coupons are necessary for my business. This is not just a convenience feature, it will have a big impact on sales (both Smugmug's and mine). And I know this is true because I've tested it. Since I continue to hear nothing but it's too hard to implement I will be forced to check out other services. Maybe I'll use 2 services, or maybe this other service will meet my needs. We'll see.
JC's message should certainly be a wakeup call to Smugmug. Please consider this message a strong second of that wakeup call.
later, Al
Hi Al, I can promise you that we're awake
Onethumb said this about coupons and I've repeated it a bunch of times... it's something we'd like to do but we're always faced with some mathematical issues, as well as cart-complexity issues. We talk about it all the time, but I can't promise if or when we'll have them.
We'd be sorry to see you use another service - but we do understand how important coupons are to you.
I wish I had a better answer for you,
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I just read all of that Onethumb thread. An interesting read and I agree strongly with the users. Those ideas all sound great to me. I'm baffled as why you can't at least come up with some sort of compromise to give us something in this area.
Put restrictions on the coupon. We only want it to work for our galleries anyway. There must be a way to mark it only good for a certain photographer's gallery. The way I set up my galleries I don't think there is that much crossover into other photographer's galleries. I don't restrict it but my events are specific to my customers. I imagine most event photographers are similar.
Oh well, I know you've heard me. I will be spending the day setting up a gallery on this other service. There is no sign up fee but there are restrictions on upload storage so maybe a dual system will work for me.
You do realize that the way Smugmug is set up that it could become the main storage area and this other site could get all the promotion sales? Time to stop saying how hard it is and attack it in my humble opinion. I'd much rather keep all my business with you.
later, Al
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
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Thanks Bill for the clarification. This is something that we're discussing. Thanks also to everyone for their input here in this thread, it's really valuable and we appreciate it so much.
No promises on if/when but we're talking about it!
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With that said, If there was any way on earth I could opt out of the typical smugmug thought pattern and just have my site, my customers and my features I would do it in a second. I did not buy into your services because I think I'll sale a tone of pictures to other people (not my customers) on your site. I joined for the benefits to my customers only.
My largest and really my only problem with your services is that you limit my functions because you are allowing people to purchase from 100 different photographers at once. That might be great for everyone else, but me personally its very annoying have such a limiting shopping cart experience just because of they way you have chosen to setup your services.
I am paying a yearly subscription as well as smugmug takes 15% of my profits to further support their services. It would be nice if we could have a little more available to us for all this. It might not mean much at this point, but if you ever loose me as a customer its going to most likely be because of these types of issues.
I would love to have the option to opt in or out of your typical business model. If I opt out then you don't provide any of my photos in customer searches, but you allow me more options in my shopping cart to support my own customers. Such as back buttons when they clear a shopping cart, coupons, qty discount rates as well as a little customization of the cart itself so that it fits in with the rest of my template layouts.
From a programming perspective this would not be that big a deal and would add an extra layer to your services for your professional clients.
Just my 2 cents...
glenn hancock
http://www.gshutter.com
There are things I do and don't like about Smugmug. There are features I would like have added that are not there yet. Some will get there, some will not. But for now, for the price I pay for Smugmug, going it alone or with the other services I've seen is a step down from what I currently have. Its why I stay where I'm at.
I can understand people wanting improvements to Smugmug. What I can't understand is how personally some people seem to take the "limitations" of Smugmug. As if SM is out to screw you somehow. Chill people. This is a business. They offer a particular service for a particular price. You either like it or you don't. You either spend your money with this merchant or with another.
Signed, a mostly satisfied SM user.
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
Are you saying that you don't want the SmugMug Guarantee that you link on your site? Most of our pros really love it that we handle any issues for their customers, thereby freeing up their time to shoot, and get more customers!
I'm not sure what we're limiting here - could you please elaborate? As I've said in other threads, we're constantly innovating and offering new features. And I and others on the team have commented on stuff that we're trying to come out with -- listening to the suggestions from our customers. Some things take longer than others, though, and we appreciate your patience.
15% fee covers the complete cost of the transaction, shopping cart functionality, and customer service - and our guarantee. If you don't see value in it well, then, I'm not sure what I can say to convince you! What I can tell you is that we deal with pro's customers all day long - far and away the majority of help is provided within 15 minutes, almost all within an hour - and rarely, longer. This is 24/7 365 days a year. I know, because I was re-doing some pro's customers orders on Thanksgiving... (a new fellow, he didn't quite understand calibration and color issues fully, so I redid by hand, an entire order).
We've covered the cart customization issue here many times on this forum - we cannot allow cobranding or any customization in the cart, as it's part of the secure part of our site - necessary for the secure transactions - and our dealings with your customer's credit card.
It's really interesting to watch an engineer read this type of statement - what may seem trivial to a lay person is often in fact, quite complicated.
We don't claim to be a site for everyone, Glenn. We do try really super hard though, to provide a beautiful viewing and buying experience, and world-class customer support - for our pros, and for their customers, too.
We hope you'll stay. Either way, thank you so very much for the valuable input.
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I don't think anyone has said anything about smugmug being out to screw anyone. I also think it should be obvious that I think they are the best solution in town or I wouldn't be with them. However, anytime I see anyone ask for a process change or enhancement, we get the same answers. "Can't because its possible someone will be buying from more than one photographer". That just seems a rediculous response when I would imagine the majority of their sales come from single photographer orders. Maybe I'm wrong but I just don't see that many people going to smugmug and buying from 10 photographers in a single setting. But again, I don't have access to smugmug's records to know anything about this...
However, good or not, its not free and we do pay for it. Therefore we all have the right to our opinions. You are happy and that is great. I am happy but would like to have things work the way it would make more sense for MY customers. I am not interested in limiting my customers just because its possible to order from more photographers at the same time...
Sorry if I offended you..
glenn hancock
http://www.gshutter.com
As far as your guarantee, I don't see anywhere that I said it was a bad thing or that I wasn't interested in it. Here is a very simple but very negative issue that you can't fix because of the fact that my customer Could order (but won't be) from other photographers. If they mess up and want to clear their cart and start over, you leave them on a page that has no links back to my site. Then they have only the option to hit a back button that shows them a full cart again. Granted if they hit back one more time it will still be empty but most people don't know this. They look for a way to get back...
You have no abilities to do qty discounts or pricing packages, again for the same reasons. So far any enhancement I've asked for related to the shopping cart has received the exact same answer.
I'm also not speaking of the backend order processing pages as I fully agree that you could not possibly give us access to those parts of the process, however, the shopping cart page is nothing more than a front end to choose products.
Again, I'm not upset and am happy with smugmug, just stating an opinion on an observation that you guys may not notice you do. ...
glenn hancock
http://www.gshutter.com
Hi Glenn, thanks again for posting - we really appreciate your direct feedback!
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Just remember this was the goal, and is still the mission, vision of the company (I assume, since it is on the homepage). Yes all the things we want would be great, but the origin of the company wasn't the ultimate pro's profitable, fully customizable, everything you want site.
Hey I want improvements but realize everything is not as easy as snapping your finger. The things they have accomplished so far have exceeded my expectations.
I think the pre-paid coupon is a great possibility and maybe be much easier to implement, maybe not.
Hope those who coupons are important to figure a out a way to do it here or there.:):
I'm sorry, but at some point you have to just say it... If you are making the majority of your money on tom and betty and aren't really that concerned with making any changes at all because 80% of your sales are multi-photographer sales, then just say it. At least I won't hang around hoping. I can either decide to stay, based on its own merits or go somewhere else. Everything in between is just excuses to me.
I'd love to know what percent of sales are multi-photographer purchases.
Also, I don't look at the fact that 95% of your customers are happy. Remember, I'm a software engineer too and the one thing I've learned is that no matter what things you do, most people will never know you did them. Most people either don't pay attention, or just plain don't care about anything. The accept things for the way they are. Because I write software for a living I am always trying to improve things. Of the 700 business customers I have to support, I can tell you that less than 2% of them challenge us. The rest, they just do their thing and never tax the system...
I'll stop though because it sounds like I'm the only one with this opinion...
glenn hancock
http://www.gshutter.com
My comment has nothing to do with whether 85/15 is "worth it" or whether smugmug should or should not be run this way. I'm just pointing out what I see as a very common misunderstanding that could be better addressed at the very beginning.
Hi Flyingpylon, thanks for posting.
I must be dense today, becuase I'm not following you at all. Are we not being clear on what the 15% is for?
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Many people assume that smugmug is providing them a web-based store to sell their products as they see fit. They assume smugmug should be a transparent technology provider that's helps the photographer transact business with their customers.
However, I feel smugmug operates more as a consignment store or outsourced fulfillment house. The photographer is more of a vendor that places their photos in the smugmug-owned store where they are sold along with those from other vendors. The photographer can customize their "shelves" in the store, but in the end the customers check out at smugmug's registers and they are smugmug's customers.
The problem is that when people assume they are operating under the first scenario, they feel justified in expecting certain features or functionality that would help them run *their* store the way *they* want. But since in reality the second scenario is more correct, certain things are either not possible or are inherently more complex. People get upset, and it just seems like if the misunderstanding had been avoided with some better information up front, everyone would be happier.
I think smugmug's business model is somewhat unique (at least among photo sites), and people mistakenly assume it's something else. I think it needs to be made more clear how things work.
The thing is, with the antique mall example its pretty obvious what is going on to the customer. Not quite so with Smugmug.
My own customers often find this confusing as well. They believe they are buying from ME. Fortunately this has caused me little gripe so far, and the very few customer support issues I've had I have been able to re-direct to Smugmug to handle the issue. (and they do so quickly).
How to remedy this I'm not so sure. Since it has impacted me very little I've given little thought to this particular issue.
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
FlyingPylon - this is an excellent summary of what's going on in this argument.
It appears that most pros expect smugmug to be a "technology and infrastructure provider" and want smumug to get out of the way as much as possible letting the pro control as much of the customer interaction as they desire. Smugmug does not have that agenda. From seeing this debate for more than a year, it feels like smugmug wants as many pros as they can attract to hang out at smugmug, but they want everyone to know that the pros are hanging out at smugmug and they don't want to be "transparent" in any way. I understand that the customer needs to understand that support on print issues comes from smugmug and that the credit card statement will say smugmug on it, but those problems could be solved without denying the pros much of the experience they are asking for (like a branding presence in the cart, for example).
That leads to unfullfilled expectations for things like branding in the shopping cart, custom backprinting, discount coupons, print packages, retouch-on-demand, selling digital files, full HTML control of the page, better watermarks, etc... Some of those are just pro-features that smugmug hasn't gotten to yet, but several are exactly what FlyingPylon describes - a mismatch in expectation and agenda.
This thread about the smugmug link at the bottom of the page is an exact encapsulation of such an issue. A pro didn't like that the link made it too easy for his customers to see the non-marke-up print prices (consistent with the expectations of a transparent technology provider). Smugmug's answer was that customers need to know that smugmug itself is behind the fullfillment and service aspects of the pro's site (consistent with the consignment store model). Our response to smugmug was that the current link is a marketing/advertising link that doesn't do what pros want and doesn't do what smugmug said was the reason for having the link there in the first place.
The other main thing I think is going on here is that smugmug's main business isn't serving pros. Its main business is serving the masses who aren't after most of the things being asked for here. For reasons we don't know, they decided to make a pro-offering and to offer some pro-like features that were convenient for them to implement within their main system. But, I don't get the impression that they are really going to sleep at night thinking about how they can create a giant "pro" business serving people who make serious money off photography. Rather, it feels from the outside, that they are interested in finding ways to get more of their existing users to be attracted to a higher priced service offering by putting some compelling features into a "pro package", but aren't really trying to beat the other "pro services" out there. If they were, they simply couldn't ignore the types of things that an event photographer need to really drive business that were so aptly described earlier in the thread (coupons, retouch-on-demand, print packages, etc...).
I'd add one more thing that's actually a positive for smugmug. The reason you see people griping about this is because they like a lot that smugmug has to offer and it isn't easy to find some of the nice things that smugmug has elsewhere. But, at the same time, when pros get the feeling that smugmug just doens't share their "pro agenda", they get frustrated. They want things to work out at smugmug because there's a lot to like, but they start to sense that smugmug may not be going in the right direction for them.
P.S. It also doesn't help that smugmug never shares anything about upcoming features that would be interesting to pros. That means that you can never get any credit for anything that you are planning to do or are already working on. In fact, you can only get credit with your customers for things that are already delivered. I know you don't want to make promises that you can't keep, but keeping your customers in the dark about what you do want to do is probably not the smartest business decision if you want to keep the most vocal customers with the most unmet needs (your pros) unless you really aren't planning on doing much of it at all.
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I'll also add, that if all the pros leave to go somewhere else, smugmugs photos they are making so much money on will dry up and they won't be making the sales they do today. If all you have is aunt susie and marian showing the family their photos then you'd basically become a snapfish...
I don't begin to claim that I bring enough business to smugmug yet for them to care much about whether I come or go, and I'm sure they are starting to wish I'd go, but their solution looks like it was designed for ma and pa with the pro thing being an after thought. It has a lot to offer I agree, however, with the things it lacks, I am beginning to think that $150/year plus 15% on top is a little much for what I'm getting. Don't get me wrong, I like most of what is available, but I just don't see this becoming a long lasting relationship with the constant reminders that I'm not the customer type they are mostly focused on...
I hope that changes but at the moment I'm not all that comfortable with where I am sitting...
Just my 2 cents...
glenn hancock
http://www.gshutter.com