Help, new D700, poor highlights

insanefred

So I just got a D700, I am coming from a D300. One of the first things I have noticed is how poorly in handles highlight details compared to the D300. It just clips the highlights like my old D50, that's bad.
I am shooting 14bit raw tried using NX2 and CS3. I have tried using -3 contrast in neutral, helps for shadows but doesn't to anything for the highlights. I am able to recover 1 stop max.
Can anyone help?
I don't want to dig into active d-lighting if I don't have too.

Thanks

ziggy53

insanefred wrote:

So I just got a D700, I am coming from a D300. One of the first things I have noticed is how poorly in handles highlight details compared to the D300. It just clips the highlights like my old D50, that's bad.
I am shooting 14bit raw tried using NX2 and CS3. I have tried using -3 contrast in neutral, helps for shadows but doesn't to anything for the highlights. I am able to recover 1 stop max.
Can anyone help?
I don't want to dig into active d-lighting if I don't have too.

Thanks

Getting used to a new camera can be frustrating at first. A new format camera can be even more so as it often allows new lenses as well.

The first thing I do with a new camera is to take side-by-side images along with the old/previous camera, noting the differences in the same light and metering, using as similar lenses as possible. Then I have a true benchmark from which to base my future settings.

If you find that a camera is consistently over exposing, you have a few choices to make, depending on the camera mode settings. The first I would recommend is the use of negative "EC" (Exposure Compensation). This is basically a correction from the metered exposure and often is the only thing required.

ban25

The D700 seems to overexpose slightly. I typically dial in -0.3 exposure compensation, sometimes -0.7.

insanefred

ban25 wrote:

The D700 seems to overexpose slightly. I typically dial in -0.3 exposure compensation, sometimes -0.7.

I seems like I have to put in -1.3 too often.

I've heard so many great things with FF senors such as the dynamic range and noise.

I sadly can not vouch for the former :cry.
Unless I have a bad copy or there is something I am doing really wrong.

Wil Davis

Have you tried checking it against an exposure meter or another camera measuring a gray card?

- Wil

insanefred

Wil Davis wrote:

Have you tried checking it against an exposure meter or another camera measuring a gray card?

- Wil

the metering appears fine other overall, but if I expose what would normally be correctly. I get blown highlights or the shadows get pretty dark. I am having to under expose a lot because I seem to be able to recover shadows better.
What I am saying, imagine someone decided to add a bunch of global contrast to the sensor level and left it that way. And not recoverable by the user. :cry

ziggy53

Time to start with the basics.

What metering mode are you using?

Lenses?

What AF mode?

Links to full-sized images displaying the problem, with full EXIF?

insanefred

ziggy53 wrote:

Time to start with the basics.

What metering mode are you using?

Lenses?

What AF mode?

Links to full-sized images displaying the problem, with full EXIF?

I have tried matrix metering, center weighted, and spot. Difference in metering, yes. Difference in shadow and highlight detail, no.

Nikon 24-70 2.8, 50 1.8, 35mm f/2, nikon 70-300 vr.

I have tried most of them.

I will get some example photos tonight.

angevin1

insanefred wrote:

I have tried matrix metering, center weighted, and spot. Difference in metering, yes. Difference in shadow and highlight detail, no.

Nikon 24-70 2.8, 50 1.8, 35mm f/2, nikon 70-300 vr.

I have tried most of them.

I will get some example photos tonight.

Can't wait to see the examples!

insanefred

Ok, I reseted my camera. and here are some examples the last one in the set is from a D300. Compare it to the on of the d700, there is more detail in the shadows and the role off to the highlights is better.

The first images show how poorly it roles off to highlights. It is about a stop under exposed, yet seems to already lose detail in the higher tones.

Examples

I shoot 14bit lossless raw, converted with NX2
My monitor is calibrated with eye-one to 5000k.
I have tried NX2, CS3 and straight JPEG.
The sample images from DPreview Here do not seem to have this problem.

Is it just me or does there seem to be something wrong?


I have also noticed today at the park, that matrix metering seems to want to fight me on the exposure comp. so I had to apply -1 stop exposure fine tune. It seems to help, but not the solution I wanted (especially if it's a full stop!)

ziggy53

The first image, DSC_3013, is definitely not blown and the highlights have plenty of headroom. If you open that image in Photoshop, Levels, then hold down the "Alt" key, now move the right most control (highlight), you can move the highlight control to roughly 220 before meaningful highlights are affected.

In the second image, DSC_2998, the umbrella appears to be somewhat blown, but that's normal for that scene. That scene is beyond the dynamic range of most cameras and is not unusual for an outdoor scene with those scene elements and a bright sun condition.

If you shoot RAW, reduce the contrast in ACR as well as bring down the highlight point in the Curves, and then apply some "Recovery", you can often retrieve a better starting point for opening in Photoshop. Then, in Photoshop, you can apply some more Highlight and Shadow, and finally a custom Curve to try to fit everything within bounds and still look good.

It's all part of the joy of working in an extreme dynamic range. Short of taking multiple exposures and combining them with layers and masks, you are doing pretty much what you can, but even the wonderful Nikon D700 doesn't do miracles in that lighting.

The rest of your images are similar and some show minor highlight clipping, but if you keep the clipping confined to scene elements that are not critical, that's usually a good compromise.

insanefred

ziggy53 wrote:

The first image, DSC_3013, is definitely not blown and the highlights have plenty of headroom. If you open that image in Photoshop, Levels, then hold down the "Alt" key, now move the right most control (highlight), you can move the highlight control to roughly 220 before meaningful highlights are affected.

In the second image, DSC_2998, the umbrella appears to be somewhat blown, but that's normal for that scene. That scene is beyond the dynamic range of most cameras and is not unusual for an outdoor scene with those scene elements and a bright sun condition.

If you shoot RAW, reduce the contrast in ACR as well as bring down the highlight point in the Curves, and then apply some "Recovery", you can often retrieve a better starting point for opening in Photoshop. Then, in Photoshop, you can apply some more Highlight and Shadow, and finally a custom Curve to try to fit everything within bounds and still look good.

It's all part of the joy of working in an extreme dynamic range. Short of taking multiple exposures and combining them with layers and masks, you are doing pretty much what you can, but even the wonderful Nikon D700 doesn't do miracles in that lighting.

The rest of your images are similar and some show minor highlight clipping, but if you keep the clipping confined to scene elements that are not critical, that's usually a good compromise.

I think you are ignoring a few details that I have said.
Yes, even in CS3 or NX2, the white shirt is already losing detail at just 220.
The D300 performs noticeably better in a similar scene.
And the fact that I am fighting the metering, because it wants to over expose a full stop.

ziggy53

insanefred wrote:

I think you are ignoring a few details that I have said.
Yes, even in CS3 or NX2, the white shirt is already losing detail at just 220.
The D300 performs noticeably better in a similar scene.
And the fact that I am fighting the metering, because it wants to over expose a full stop.

I am not ignoring anything. Rather I am encouraging you to work with the camera a bit more.

The first image has limited DOF and "that" is what is causing most of the loss of detail. It is to be expected with f3.2 and 70mm at a relatively short distance. That is predictable behavior for that combination of settings and distances.

The second image shows "0" "ExopsureBiasValue" so the EXIF is saying you did not compensate that image with a minus EV. In others words, I'm saying that the second image is properly exposed for the circumstances, it's just the lighting circumstances are creating a dynamic range beyond the ability of that camera to record in a single exposure. The EXIF shows that you were in Manual Exposure mode and you handled it properly IMO.

The EXIF reader I am using on the second image shows "Multi-Segment" metering, and I am not sure what metering mode that translates into for the D700, but the meter could be easily fooled by a scene with that broad a dynamic range.

If you take my advice and do the simple things I mentioned before regarding processing, ultimately I think you can be very happy with the results.

Tim Kamppinen

I'm trying to understand this... are you saying that the D700's meter works differently, tends to overexpose, and that's causing you problems, or that that D700 actually has less dynamic range than the D300 (seems highly unlikely). If it's the former, there's a simple solution: shoot in manual mode.

Also, I don't use NX2 but doesn't it keep the JPEG settings from the camera as defaults when you import the image for RAW conversion? If so maybe you just need to switch to Neutral picture control. Sorry if this is a stupid suggestion...

insanefred

Maybe you're right, but I am going to the camera store either tomorrow or Tuesday to compare with another D700 to be sure.

insanefred

Tim Kamppinen wrote:

I'm trying to understand this... are you saying that the D700's meter works differently, tends to overexpose, and that's causing you problems, or that that D700 actually has less dynamic range than the D300 (seems highly unlikely). If it's the former, there's a simple solution: shoot in manual mode.

Also, I don't use NX2 but doesn't it keep the JPEG settings from the camera as defaults when you import the image for RAW conversion? If so maybe you just need to switch to Neutral picture control. Sorry if this is a stupid suggestion...

I am saying it's both. LOW dynamic range, and overexposing.
I am shoot neutral. sharpening 3, contrast -3, brightness -1, sat 0, hue 0

angevin1

insanefred wrote:

Ok, I reseted my camera. and here are some examples the last one in the set is from a D300. Compare it to the on of the d700, there is more detail in the shadows and the role off to the highlights is better.

The first images show how poorly it roles off to highlights. It is about a stop under exposed, yet seems to already lose detail in the higher tones.

Examples

I shoot 14bit lossless raw, converted with NX2
My monitor is calibrated with eye-one to 5000k.
I have tried NX2, CS3 and straight JPEG.
The sample images from DPreview Here do not seem to have this problem.

Is it just me or does there seem to be something wrong?

The dPReview page you site is an interesting read. And this page from that same review: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/NikonD700/page20.asp really covers the argument you make; The D300 is Dynamically stronger to start with than the D700. It goes on to read how to coax the range out of it "almost 5 stops more"; akin to what Ziggy53 has advised.

cheers,

ziggy53

angevin1 wrote:

The dPReview page you site is an interesting read. And this page from that same review: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/NikonD700/page20.asp really covers the argument you make; The D300 is Dynamically stronger to start with than the D700. It goes on to read how to coax the range out of it "almost 5 stops more"; akin to what Ziggy53 has advised.

cheers,

Good call Tom. It would appear that the D700 is applying a strong, high-contrast tone curve to JPG processing to make the images "pop". In a high contrast situation, like outdoors in bright sunlight, this will lead to the clipping that InsaneFred is experiencing.

It seems rather conclusive that the D700 needs RAW capture and RAW processing in order to exploit the full capabilities of the imager. It would also appear that the 14 bit mode of the D700 is the real deal and worth the effort in high DR situations especially.

thegridrunner

So essentially, the jpeg image setting are 'toasted' in with a punchier (contrasty) tonal range at the get-go. This pretty much dictates that if you want a greater tonal range, you have to shoot raw and process the image manually.
I have the same situation with my D80. I adapted by capturing in the raw + jpeg mode. Now when I process, I have a point of reference with the jpeg image.
By the way Tom, thanks for including the curves chart, it cleared things right up.

insanefred

the Dynamic range jpeg test is based on camera defaults. They're almost always too punchy.
Like I said, I am shooting 14bit raw, I only can recover up too 1 stop.
I never shoot jpeg anyways.

I am gonna go to a local camera store and do a side by side test with another D700 and a D300 just to see if it's me or the camera.
Every thing about the camera is awesome, notable improvement over the D300, except the metering and dynamic range.
So far the only picture control that give me just a little extra highlight shoulder is STANDARD mode. And hates D2X modes. And maybe I have to enable active D-lighting.

insanefred

*update*

Well, I went to a camera store today, and tested/compared to another D700 and D3 (I didn't get a chance to compare to a D300). I also spent a lot of time walking around town to just get to know the matrix metering behavior. Here is my findings....

Both the D3 and D700s shoot a little hot. So I need to cope with this.
The D700 is just like the D300 in low light, it tries to over expose about .3 to 1.0 stops. This is easy enough to predict.
In brighter light high contrast, it seems to ignore whites and light blues, and meters bases on overall mid tones. So if you plan on preserving highlights, you'll need to dial in some exposure comp.
In Bright but low contrast (overcast) It meters about +0.3 hot but otherwise accurate. - But any camera can do that!
In brightly back lit scenes, in ignores both shadow and highlights. So either I need to dial in some exposure comp. or use fill flash.

The D700 hates D2xmodes (too steep of tone curve even with -3 contrast and -1 brightnes), seems to love Standard mode (provides a better shoulder graduate to highlights.
I also find that the D700 is naturally more contrasty (like some p&s cameras) no matter what setting you use.

In any case I feel a lot better knowing it's not just me or my camera being defective. I am going to spend more time getting to know the camera this week.
All and all, I'd like to thank everyone for helping.

Splitpin

Forum newbie, just read this thread and see its a bit dated but anyway wanted to say - I have had a D700 for about a year and have carried out just about every test comparison I can, mainly using a tripod and comparing against my D200 et a similar zoom setting.
I have to conclude that the 700 definately overexposes sometimes up to 1 stop.
The D200 copes much better with high contrast / highlight type scenes.
For example a long dark street with high buildings each side and a very bright sun at the end is taken in its stride by the 200 and the whole thing is well exposed but 700 does not cope well with the sun in this case
I have also compred with different lenses and find that my Nikon 24-120 VR causes spikes to the right of the camera histogram which are much less with my Nikon 70-300 mm VR at similar zoom setings.

OK you can compensate and you can spot meter or whatever but I like to set aperture prioity, matrix metering and usually landscape mode with 51 point 3D and just take pictures, like I can on the 200 (apert from 3D
I dont want to be constantly tying to look at histograms in bright sunlight.

ziggy53

Splitpin wrote: »

Forum newbie, just read this thread and see its a bit dated but anyway wanted to say - I have had a D700 for about a year and have carried out just about every test comparison I can, mainly using a tripod and comparing against my D200 et a similar zoom setting.
I have to conclude that the 700 definately overexposes sometimes up to 1 stop.
The D200 copes much better with high contrast / highlight type scenes.
For example a long dark street with high buildings each side and a very bright sun at the end is taken in its stride by the 200 and the whole thing is well exposed but 700 does not cope well with the sun in this case
I have also compred with different lenses and find that my Nikon 24-120 VR causes spikes to the right of the camera histogram which are much less with my Nikon 70-300 mm VR at similar zoom setings.

OK you can compensate and you can spot meter or whatever but I like to set aperture prioity, matrix metering and usually landscape mode with 51 point 3D and just take pictures, like I can on the 200 (apert from 3D
I dont want to be constantly tying to look at histograms in bright sunlight.

It sounds like the exposure meter "behind" the camera (that would be you) is doing the job. As long as you can recognize when the camera needs exposure compensation and you respond accordingly, you "and" the camera can work cooperatively. Understanding your individual camera goes a long way towards success.