Anyone else angry about the 7D?

DI-Joe

Ok, so I am a 5D MKII user...

I'm waiting patiently for the 5D Mark Free firmware to support 24p... 720p, etc...

Canon goes and releases the 7D which appears to be prosumer build with an 18MP APS-C sensor, but supports all these pro video features...

Amazon.com wrote:

Full HD Video is captured at 1920 x 1080 resolution at 30p (29.97), 24p (23.976) or 25p frames per second, for up to 4GB per clip. Movies are saved as .MOV files and can be viewed in Full HD with HDMI output. Other recording sizes include HD at 1280 x 720 (50p / 60p (59.94) fps) or SD/VGA at 640 x 480 (50p / 60p (59.94) fps).

60p??? we could do REAL slowmo!! 24p? film look without expensive plugins? Oh did I mention it's about 900-1000 bones cheaper than the MKII was at launch? Do any other MkII owners feel like they just got thrown under the bus by Canon? I suggest they get to releasing a firmware update that gives us these capabilities... at the very least 24p... it's what we've been screaming the whole time...

b8264d

I am not angry, disapointed that they couldn't get it right with the 5DMKII and had to remake a model, yes. I guess they saw it as a way to make more money off of people, rather than establish a loyal following by getting it right the first time. I don't know, this just doesn't make sense to me.

kdog

Yeah, Canon should just wait until they invent every new possible feature and get it 100% perfect before they release it; I don't mind waiting a decade or two between new models, how about you?

davev

I know very little about video. But from what I understand about it, 24 frames/second in HD is the standard.
For Canon to not have that as one of the recording options was just foolish.
I'm sure that they didn't want the still cameras competing with their video cameras, but come on, this was just a blatant attempt to hold back very basic features. And really, it wasn't an attempt, they did it.

From what I've read, it seems that 24 frames/second could be done with a new firmware.
If they're willing to add this feature to a lesser (?) camera, they should be able to add it to the higher end one with another (what would it be, the 3rd) firmware release.

I've been using Canons for quite a while now, and I have a ton of money in glass, but the more I see and read about how things are disabled, or just left out, I can see why some folks have made the switch to Nikon.

I bought the 5DMKII, but coming from a xxx rebel or a xxD series, I have quite a few lenses that no longer work for me, or at least not the proper way. (My Tokina 12-24 still works, but only from 19-24)
With Nikon, you can use either type of lens and the camera will adjust to it. I know that it crops the sensor, but at least you can still use the lenses.

If I were moving into the DSLR world right now, I'd go Nikon.
I feel that Nikon has listened to the people that are buying their product, and are more in tune with them.
Canon reminds me of Microsoft, send out a beta unit, if it has bugs in it, deny that there's a problem, then come out with a new product that does what the other one should have.

Kdog, for $2700 for a camera I do expect it to be perfect and not have bugs, like black dots near bright lights, or lines in sraw.

kdog

Dave, can you articulate why 24 fps is better than 30 fps? To me, more is better, but I'm not a video person. All I know is that I press the button and a spectacular video pops out. Ignoring the hysteria from "those in the know", what are you missing out by not having 24 fps? Serious question.

Also, black dots adjacent to blown-out areas were promptly fixed in firmware shortly after the camera was announced. I really don't see what the problem is. I don't know about lines on SRAW files, so maybe you can educate me on that.

As somebody whose been in technology for 30 plus years, I can tell you that no significant piece of technology like this is perfect. What is important to me is that it can and will be fixed when it does go wrong. To be fair, I think Canon has demonstrated that ability.

Regards,
-joel

jogle

I'm a 5DMkII user who's been shooting a whole pile of video and I'm even in a PAL country but I'm not pissed off about the 7D

I preordered the camera for what it could do not what it was rumoured it might someday do, if it somehow didn't live up to the advertised specs then I'd be angry but infact it does more now then when it came out and that's excellent. especially as canon almost never adds features with firmware once a camera is released.

If the 5DII doesn't do what you need it for why did you buy it?

ps, 60p isn't really useful for good looking slomo. more often then not it just looks odd. you really need to get above 120fps to get a noticable slomo look.

jogle

kdog wrote:

Dave, can you articulate why 24 fps is better than 30 fps?

I work in the film industry and spend all day looking at 24fps film. I can't stand the stroby disjointed look. I've seen footage shot at 60fps shot with the Red camera and projected in the cinema at that rate and it looks stunning. totally fluid and immersive. I can't wait for features to be shot and projected that way.

Indy film makes lust after 24p, not because it looks good, but because it has history, people see the stuttery look and go "oh, that's a film not a video" because that's what they have been brought up with. I hope that more and more HD tv shows will be shot at 60p (which is part of the hdtv spec) and that holywood will catch up.

davev

kdog wrote:

Dave, can you articulate why 24 fps is better than 30 fps? To me, more is better, but I'm not a video person. All I know is that I press the button and a spectacular video pops out. Ignoring the hysteria from "those in the know", what are you missing out by not having 24 fps? Serious question.

I'm missing out on nothing. But to be fair to others that do use, and bought the camera because this feature was on it, wouldn't it be nice for it to fall into an industry standard?
Maybe instead of a using JPG, they should have used PIX. Why keep a standard?

kdog wrote:

Also, black dots adjacent to blown-out areas were promptly fixed in firmware shortly after the camera was announced. I really don't see what the problem is. I don't know about lines on SRAW files, so maybe you can educate me on that.

Once again, no I can't. I don't shoot RAW of any type. Just stuff I've read about another flaw of the camera. Did a quick search for it, it appears that it was fixed in another firmware upgrade.

kdog wrote:

As somebody whose been in technology for 30 plus years, I can tell you that no significant piece of technology like this is perfect. What is important to me is that it can and will be fixed when it does go wrong. To be fair, I think Canon has demonstrated that ability.

Regards,
-joel

I do not have your 30 years in technology. But I'm sure Canon does.
If this were a brand new, never seen before item, I would agree, there would probably be bugs in the system.
But this isn't the first camera that Canon ever made. This isn't even the first camera of this series.

I know I shouldn't, but I relate things to the type of work that I do, make welds at nuclear power plants and oil refineries.
Be happy that I'm better at my job than the techie's are at their's.
Our motto is "Perfect is acceptable"

Later.

ziggy53

I was really trying to stay out of this thread, but there needs to be some education.

It should not be forgotten that the dSLR + Video hybrid cameras are a recent invention. Just because someone can "imagine" features doesn't mean that those features are easy to implement, nor does it necessarily make good marketing sense.

In order for a dSLR to provide video output, it must be "designed" to produce video output. That means that the imager and its multiple channel readout, the chip refresh cycles, the support circuits and the image processing section all have to be designed and coordinated in a fashion to support a video stream which may, but probably is not, of constant bandwidth. If it supports all of these things at one frame rate, that does not imply that it can support the same things at a different frame rate, or a different format or resolution, or a different interlace. All of these things need to be designed into the device, and, in the case of the dSLR, they need to be designed so that they do not interfere with the basic still capture capabilities.

Anyone who thinks this is simple or "a given" just hasn't got a clue. If it were a simple thing to do, it would have been long ago, like it was with P&S cameras and advanced digicams. It took a certain "critical mass" of technology and incentives to merge to finally cause the current situation and allow the 7D the rather unique capabilities it has.

If it is possible to do in the 5D MKII, or any other camera, it will probably happen, but it won't happen just because someone "get's mad" or because "they" think it should be done.

Canon is very aware that the general public craves a single device that can be used for very high quality video and still image acquisition. The 7D is evidence of that fact, but so are all of the other recent hybrid cameras.

Our pontification and speculation regarding which cameras may already include the necessary control circuits and parts does not matter. What "might" matter is careful and measured requests, not here, but directed at Canon corporate itself. If enough of us were to submit such requests, it might have some weight.

Likewise Nikon shooters and Olympus shooters and Sony shooters and Pentax shooters and everybody else need to send such requests to their corporate offices as well.

Such requests would have more weight if they include a detailed description of you you have actually used similar tools, rather than speculation on how you might use the tools requested. Each of these manufacturers knows the difference between a simple "wish" by the general populus and a true "need" by a working practitioner of the craft. If you can describe in detail how you have prepared for a feature and researched what you would need to implement the entire system, which might include the computer hardware and software required to actually follow through with the plan, the better chance you will have of your request being taken seriously.

Good luck and know that I am doing what I preach.

b8264d

Thank you for the education, I stand corrected and must say I am not a video guy. Yet. With the little "playing" I've done with the 5D MK II, I can see why people really enjoy getting into video and making movies.

Baldy

I took my 7D to SF last night a compared the video to my 5D MKII:

http://cmac.smugmug.com/Photography/Testing-video-new-Canon-7D/9810697_dbQtK#666271446_zKBEY

I love everything about my 5D MKII except how slow it is to focus and shoot, but after shooting with the 7D last night I can tell I'll use it 90% of the time. The quality is very close to the 5D, but the controls are nicer and it shoots and focuses faster. Me likey.

I shot some 24fps and slow mo too, and they both looked good.

ziggy53

Baldy wrote:

I took my 7D to SF last night a compared the video to my 5D MKII:

http://cmac.smugmug.com/Photography/Testing-video-new-Canon-7D/9810697_dbQtK#666271446_zKBEY

I love everything about my 5D MKII except how slow it is to focus and shoot, but after shooting with the 7D last night I can tell I'll use it 90% of the time. The quality is very close to the 5D, but the controls are nicer and it shoots and focuses faster. Me likey.

I shot some 24fps and slow mo too, and they both looked good.

I can hope for a 5D MKIIN or 5D MKIII maybe, although the 1Ds MKIV might be the killer camera and I suspect it is not too far in the distance. Now that Canon has showed what's possible, I can't imagine them holding back too much in the ascendant cameras.

DustinFinn

ziggy53 wrote:

I can hope for a 5D MKIIN or 5D MKIII maybe, although the 1Ds MKIV might be the killer camera and I suspect it is not too far in the distance. Now that Canon has showed what's possible, I can't imagine them holding back too much in the ascendant cameras.

This is the key right here, if you look at a feature by feature run down of the 7D, it all points to a rough revamp of the 5D, along with the upgrades tot he 1D/1Ds lines.

The AF situation alone is a huge, huge upgrade and the older 9 point AF system is what frustrates me about the 5D I own, and the 5Dmk2 I've borrowed from Canon and rented from Lens Rentals... The new AF in the 7D is why I am selling my 40D and 1DMk2n. I am impressed with the 7D enough to let my prized 1Dmk2n go...

So I am rambling, sorry for that, but I think Ziggy has it right, if you wait it out a bit, you might enjoy Canon might be releasing that is certainly hinted at from this 7D release.

Catharsis

davev wrote:

If I were moving into the DSLR world right now, I'd go Nikon.
I feel that Nikon has listened to the people that are buying their product, and are more in tune with them.
Canon reminds me of Microsoft, send out a beta unit, if it has bugs in it, deny that there's a problem, then come out with a new product that does what the other one should have.

It's not as if Nikon doesn't have it's drawbacks too. All brands have thier good points and bad points, at least canon currently has manual control over the exposure unlike other brands. Bottom line is there is always going to be a trade off.

jogle

DustinFinn wrote:

This is the key right here, if you look at a feature by feature run down of the 7D, it all points to a rough revamp of the 5D, along with the upgrades tot he 1D/1Ds lines.

I see the 7D as more of a baby 1D sports camera (fast frame rate, less megapixels, cropped sensor) Where the 5D is a baby 1Ds portrait/landscape camera (lots of pixels, great in low light)

They really are different beasts for different uses. I think Canon were really caught of guard by the film makers who have picked up the 5D, they would have been listening to their photography customers that had started to do a little video when developing this.

I think it'll be a few generations before they really get good ergonomics and their video UI settles down.

antrix

5D MKII to get 24fps
5D MKII will get 24fps in firmware update. Announced today: http://www.dpreview.com/news/0910/09102003eos5dfirmware.asp

dogwood

kdog wrote:

Yeah, Canon should just wait until they invent every new possible feature and get it 100% perfect before they release it; I don't mind waiting a decade or two between new models, how about you?

Just getting into the video aspect of the 5DMKII myself even though I've had the camera for nine months or so. And you know what? As a still camera alone, the 5DMKII rocks! It's a tool and used properly, it can make you money. So no, I'm not too upset.

Marc Muench

I like this discussion and just wanted to through this out there. Of all the Canon 35mm cameras, high end video cameras, large format cameras I have used over the 20+ years as a working professional, the 7D is the best camera I have ever used

I have been integrating it into my work over the past three weeks.

Not necessarily the best quality, but the most pleasing in the hand and most versatile. There will be some significant improvements to the Adobe RAW converter before long and maybe some needed firmware updates, but.......


I also believe there are too many pixels stuffed in the censor. However, I am not worried! I believe when converted down in ACR to 11mp the files look tremendous. I will continue shooting in full res but plan on working with the scaled down file size just for cleaner pixels. I hope to post some results of this once the camera profile is completed by Adobe.

Also, I really wish there was a fold out monitor The G11 fold out monitor ROCKS

In-case you are wondering, I am not sponsored by Canon.