Volleyball Today

donek

I shot a local tournament today. I used 4 off camera flashes bounced off one wall. This is a mix of D700, D300, 70-200 f2.8 and 200-400 f4 (too heavy to last more than 15 minutes...I need a monopod with a ball head)
1.

2.

3.

4.

My timing on spikes was pretty bad. Couldn't get a single shot with the ball in it today.
5. a little attitude

6. Team spirit

7. We won

johng

Great set Sean. Love 1 & 3 - I just appreciate captures of digs - seems like there's always another player in the way

rainbow

Nice set. It looks like four flashes off the wall gives you excellent lighting versus my ISO 1600. These are nice captures.

One thing I notice is that the blur on the ball is different. At first I thought it was the flashes not being completely synched, but then realized it is probably the slower synch shutter speed whereby the movement of the ball after the flashes go off is lit only by the gym lights. Especially apparent in #2, but seen in #1 as well.

donek

johng wrote:

Great set Sean. Love 1 & 3 - I just appreciate captures of digs - seems like there's always another player in the way

I almost always seem to have someone in the way on spikes.

donek

rainbow wrote:

Nice set. It looks like four flashes off the wall gives you excellent lighting versus my ISO 1600. These are nice captures.

One thing I notice is that the blur on the ball is different. At first I thought it was the flashes not being completely synched, but then realized it is probably the slower synch shutter speed whereby the movement of the ball after the flashes go off is lit only by the gym lights. Especially apparent in #2, but seen in #1 as well.

These were actually shot at iso 1250 to 1600 at f2.8. The bounce flash makes it possible to get f2.8 rather than f1.4 to f1.8. The sync speed is 1/250, so you do get a fair bit of ghosting from fast moving objects. If I switch to direct flash, I can go to f4 and iso 400, there are a lot of shadows.

rainbow

donek wrote:

These were actually shot at iso 1250 to 1600 at f2.8. The bounce flash makes it possible to get f2.8 rather than f1.4 to f1.8. The sync speed is 1/250, so you do get a fair bit of ghosting from fast moving objects. If I switch to direct flash, I can go to f4 and iso 400, there are a lot of shadows.

Thanks for the info. I learned something about considering bounce flash for the great lighting that you are getting, though I am a long way away from ever having that capability. I have rejected direct flash (580 EXII) due to the shadows and the white or red eye effects.

BTW, I shot a high school match Thursday and thought that the angle you shot from in #2 gave me some of my best photos.

donek

rainbow wrote:

Thanks for the info. I learned something about considering bounce flash for the great lighting that you are getting, though I am a long way away from ever having that capability. I have rejected direct flash (580 EXII) due to the shadows and the white or red eye effects.

BTW, I shot a high school match Thursday and thought that the angle you shot from in #2 gave me some of my best photos.

Perhaps I should clarify. By direct flash I do not mean shoe mounted. They are off camera, but pointed at the the athletes rather than the wall. I actually have an idea for positioning I'm going to try at my next game to see if it will allow me to use direct light while minimizing the shadows. I'll post the results. Next game is tuesday, but a different gym. I'll have to see if I can execute the idea there.

aktse

clapclap You're making me want to try strobed sports! I love the image quality.

Mitchell

These are really nice. The faces are very well exposed. I find volleyball to be one of the toughest sports to shoot. No good angle and there are usually too many bodies in the way.

The ghosting of the ball bothers me a bit. Have you shot any without the strobes? I wonder what the 70-200mm at f2.8 would look like at 1/1000 with auto ISO. With the bodies you have, you should produce some great, noise free images.

I've started shooting soccer in some lousy lighting this way with my D700. The experience has been quite liberating. I realize that an overcast sky does not compare to some of these dimly lit dungeons (I mean gyms).

donek

Mitchell wrote:

These are really nice. The faces are very well exposed. I find volleyball to be one of the toughest sports to shoot. No good angle and there are usually too many bodies in the way.

The ghosting of the ball bothers me a bit. Have you shot any without the strobes? I wonder what the 70-200mm at f2.8 would look like at 1/1000 with auto ISO. With the bodies you have, you should produce some great, noise free images.

I've started shooting soccer in some lousy lighting this way with my D700. The experience has been quite liberating. I realize that an overcast sky does not compare to some of these dimly lit dungeons (I mean gyms).

The ball ghosting bothers me a bit too. I've shot this gym before without strobes and the vacant black eye sockets bother me more than the ghosting. I guess I could try a single on camera bounced strobe to open up the eyes. Past experience indicates that I could shoot iso 1600, f1.6, 1/400. Doing the math, that translates to ISO 6400, f2.8, and 1/500. I don't know that that's much of an improvement for the increased noise and WB issues that will arise. I'm going to shoot without bouncing the strobes tomorrow. That will get me more stopping power from the flashes as I' should be able to move to iso 400 and f4. I think I have a plan for eliminating the shadows from pointing the flash at the players. We'll see.

timparker_NikonD60

Silly question that I have and may just be my inexperience, but when I have gone to different events (indoor HS) they always seem to announce that there should be no "flash" photography. How do you get around that?

I just shot a game at my daughter's HS (different thread on here) and the referee turned around as someone off to my right and behind took a shot with a flash and he kind of glared at them. My wife thought it was me....she gave me a small dose of what-for till she realized it wasn't me.

rwells

If you'll set at least 2 stops difference between ambient and flash, you'll stop the ghosting. That's the rule of thumb, adjust as needed for extremities, ball, etc.

Looks like you are within 1 ~ 1.5 stops here.

Mitchell

rwells wrote:

If you'll set at least 2 stops difference between ambient and flash, you'll stop the ghosting. That's the rule of thumb, adjust as needed for extremities, ball, etc.

Looks like you are within 1 ~ 1.5 stops here.

Thanks for the tip.

Mitchell

timparker_NikonD60 wrote:

Silly question that I have and may just be my inexperience, but when I have gone to different events (indoor HS) they always seem to announce that there should be no "flash" photography. How do you get around that?

I just shot a game at my daughter's HS (different thread on here) and the referee turned around as someone off to my right and behind took a shot with a flash and he kind of glared at them. My wife thought it was me....she gave me a small dose of what-for till she realized it wasn't me.

Same experience here. No flash photography allowed during volleyball or basketball games. That's why I asked to question about going flashless.

RicherSea

I almost think it might look better with a slightly slower shutter speed and more movement blur, rather than the not quite there but not quite gone effect you have at the moment.

donek

timparker_NikonD60 wrote:

Silly question that I have and may just be my inexperience, but when I have gone to different events (indoor HS) they always seem to announce that there should be no "flash" photography. How do you get around that?

I just shot a game at my daughter's HS (different thread on here) and the referee turned around as someone off to my right and behind took a shot with a flash and he kind of glared at them. My wife thought it was me....she gave me a small dose of what-for till she realized it wasn't me.

That's so interesting. I shoot 4 different schools in the area and have never been given any trouble. I've even shot some state games at other schools and the other newspaper guys were using flash as well. If these kids have any aspirations of moving on to the college level, they'll have to get use to it. The big papers have strobes permanently mounted in the big arenas. Any time I've ever posed the question to an athlete about flash they indicate that they never even notice the flash.

johng

It does indeed vary from state to state. Up until last year in Ohio, the OHSAA (governing body) rules indicated flash was prohibited for volleyball and gymnastics but allowed for wrestling and basketball. Stobe use has been allowed for volleyball in post season tournaments, and I believe they may be allowing strobe setup use (with prior permission) in regular season this year but direct flash is sill a no-no.

donek

rwells wrote:

If you'll set at least 2 stops difference between ambient and flash, you'll stop the ghosting. That's the rule of thumb, adjust as needed for extremities, ball, etc.

Looks like you are within 1 ~ 1.5 stops here.

I've heard/read this statement a number of times, but have never seen it work in practice. It is possible that it is due to the cheap cactus triggers I use, but I don't believe so. I believe the trouble lies with the color of the ball.

Below are 3 photos of a white volleyball. The 2nd is 2 stops underexposed and the 3rd 4 stops underexposed.





As you can see, even undexposing 4 stops, the ball is still visible. The carpet it is sitting on is close to a skin tone and begins to loose significant clarity at 2 stops, but not completely. As a result, the abient light (when 2 or even 4 stops below your flashed exposure) will still create a ghost impression of the ball on an image. 2 stops will dramatically dimnish skin tone ghosting, but is insufficient for the volleyball.

I am shooting a game this evening. I will take an ambient reading and then attempt to create 6 stops of exposure difference between flash and ambient and see if the ghosting dissapears. Such an experiment should allow us to determine if the flash triggers are firing at different times.

rwells

donek wrote:

I've heard/read this statement a number of times, but have never seen it work in practice.

Sean,

Try it, you'll like it


Here are some examples:


This was shot using 3 580EX flash's. I'm about 2 1/3 stops over ambient w/flash exposure.
I've have shots where I was testing this setup with the ISO at 400, 800, 1600 & 3200 ~ ALL of those shots have significant ghosting.
Interesting note: Notice the big black arrow pointing to the bulls back right leg. There is ghosting there due to some of the flash exposure being blocked by his front leg.
(sorry for the blacked out face, I can't post recognizable images here)

ISO 200 ~ f/2.8 ~ 1/200


2 stops over ambient
ISO 400 ~ f/4.5 ~ 1/250


This shot is not quite 2 stops over ambient.
Info: (3) 580EX flash's ~ one on each corner (fired w/PW from PC port) & one on camera bounced off back wall in ETTL to eliminate shadows.
Should have brought the ambient down another 1/2 stop to completely eliminate ghosting of the feet.
NOTE: This setup will be easy with my PW FlexTT5's ~ full ETTL on all of them...

ISO 400 ~ f/2.8 ~ 1/250

donek

rwells wrote:

Sean,

Try it, you'll like it

I should have said I've never had it work for me. Last nights game is here:
http://dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=144048
I made an ambient exposure, but accidentally deleted it. I think I did a bit better on stopping things though.

winger

donek wrote:

Great set overall but this one is my favorite. Volleyball is in general a challenging sport to shoot between the lighting in the gym and trying to get a clean shot. You did an excellent job here.

Photosbychuck

Great Series

I shot my first vollyball game last weekend and it was alot of fun.
I did not use my flash because I did not want to bother the players.
I am not sure about the flash rules here in North Carolina.
I am going to rent a 2.8 lens in October and compair the shots with my other lens.
I have photos from the vollyball game on my web site if you want to check them out.

Take Care,
Charles