Conflict of Interests With Photos Taken On-the-Job

coldclimb

Hey all, I'm going to be doing some diggin on this subject, but I figured I'd post up as well and get all the feedback I can.

I am a firefighter/EMT and I take photos on emergency scenes that nobody else gets the chance to take. Everybody loves the photos of course and wants me to continue taking them, but I've run into troubles with being able to publish them because I'm on the clock with the fire department when I'm taking them, and I'm wondering if anyone out there has solved an issue like this and can offer me advice or a direction to go.

Details:
A few weeks ago I put together a calendar of fire photos and presented it to the Chief with the idea that I'd get them printed through Costco and sell them to the other firefighters. He took the idea to the legal department, and they told him it would be a conflict of interests for me to be taking photos while on duty and then selling them for profit.

Now obviously I want to continue taking photos, since I'm in a position many times to shoot what nobody else gets to shoot. I also want to be able to DO things with the photos both to benefit me and my fellow responders, so is there something I can propose that will resolve this issue sufficiently for the legal department here to be happy? I'm thinking a release that allows me to retain ownership while also letting the borough (which oversees the Fire Department) get whatever they'd like from the photos, but that would only address ownership, and I'd like to cover this "conflict of interests" issue sufficiently to appease the legal guys.

I have little experience with the legal side of photo business, so any help is greatly appreciated, and I'll be digging around myself as well. Thanks!

promoguy

Here's what I believe all IMHO. While you're on the clock everything you do during that period belongs to the employer. In my business, I will run into folks who might want to do business with me say, if I get you the company's business would you pay me a commission. My answer is always the same, NO.

Art Scott

It's off to DAN HELLER for you my boy....................A good place to start, there is a lot there to read and digest.

Angelo

do not confuse what you do while on-the-clock with a work-for-hire, they are not the same.

I have a suggestion that should satisfy the legal eagles, help your fellow responders and get your work recognized, albeit not with any profit in your pocket.

offer to publish the calendars, or other forms of collateral, and sell them to the community while earmarking the profit (that's the revenue stream after the cost of print / production) to a fraternal charity that benefits the fire fighters (or any other such charitable organization)

in doing this, you can still attach your name to all of the images as the photographer of record.

.

Cygnus Studios

Angelo wrote:

do not confuse what you do while on-the-clock with a work-for-hire, they are not the same.

I have a suggestion that should satisfy the legal eagles, help your fellow responders and get your work recognized, albeit not with any profit in your pocket.

offer to publish the calendars, or other forms of collateral, and sell them to the community while earmarking the profit (that's the revenue stream after the cost of print / production) to a fraternal charity that benefits the fire fighters (or any other such charitable organization)

in doing this, you can still attach your name to all of the images as the photographer of record.

Well put.

Ohiohiker

As a Paramedic I often carry my camera but rarely take pictures. If I do, it would be for training purposes only. This is mainly due to HIPAA. This is such a cloudy area I would tread lightly in concerns with the privacy of other especially in regards to MVC's or anything that can be construed as a possible HIPAA violation.

On the other hand I am not afraid to listen to the scanner and go to calls and take pictures as a 3rd party. I have several film photos by doing this that I need to scan.

Sam

While Angelo has some good points, I have a couple of thoughts on this.

First the legal department is there to protect the fire department, city, bough, etc. Nine times out of ten their answer will be no. No is the save cover your butt answer for them.

That said if your coming to my house for a fire or health related issue, I want you to be focused on your job, period.

Ohiohiker seems to have the right idea. Go on your days off. Talk to the powers that be, look at donating a portion of what ever profits you have to a charitable cause. Find an agreeable solution. You will get access I and others will not be afforded and it won't interfere with the fire departments mission.

Sam

johng

The other area for concern - similar to HIPPA:

I'm guessing it's entirely possible these photos would be taken on private property rather than public property. Without consent of those property owners I'm not sure what the laws are. And that's something your department's legal team might not have the answer to. So using those photos without permission of property owners MIGHT (big MIGHT) open things up for litigation. So this is beyond the conflict of interest side and would apply even if you were off the clock but allowed on-scene. Again, I would advise getting an opinion from a knowledgable attorney regarding whether or not you need any type of release or permission for using photos taken on private property.

For my part, as a homeowner, I might be a bit upset if I knew a person had carte blanche to take photos and use them for profit on my property using the fire department as access to get those photos. Just think about it for a second. What's' the difference between you taking and distributing a photo of the fire while on my property vs. taking a photo of something else about my house I might not want shown publicly. Ignoring any snikkering comments people arre tempted to make, I really wouldn't like the idea of a fireman walking around my house taking photos of whatever they wanted. For certain that's not your intent and I understand that. But I think there's an expectation of privacy that might come into play. And with the sue-happy public the last thing you need is to open you and your department up to a lawsuit. So check with an attorney and see what the lawws dictate about whether you are allowed to take such photos and what permissions you need to use them.

JohnBiggs

coldclimb wrote:

Hey all, I'm going to be doing some diggin on this subject, but I figured I'd post up as well and get all the feedback I can.

I am a firefighter/EMT and I take photos on emergency scenes that nobody else gets the chance to take. Everybody loves the photos of course and wants me to continue taking them, but I've run into troubles with being able to publish them because I'm on the clock with the fire department when I'm taking them, and I'm wondering if anyone out there has solved an issue like this and can offer me advice or a direction to go.

Details:
A few weeks ago I put together a calendar of fire photos and presented it to the Chief with the idea that I'd get them printed through Costco and sell them to the other firefighters. He took the idea to the legal department, and they told him it would be a conflict of interests for me to be taking photos while on duty and then selling them for profit.

Now obviously I want to continue taking photos, since I'm in a position many times to shoot what nobody else gets to shoot. I also want to be able to DO things with the photos both to benefit me and my fellow responders, so is there something I can propose that will resolve this issue sufficiently for the legal department here to be happy? I'm thinking a release that allows me to retain ownership while also letting the borough (which oversees the Fire Department) get whatever they'd like from the photos, but that would only address ownership, and I'd like to cover this "conflict of interests" issue sufficiently to appease the legal guys.

I have little experience with the legal side of photo business, so any help is greatly appreciated, and I'll be digging around myself as well. Thanks!

You could take your off time and go take photos. You may still get access others wont because they know you, but then it would no longer be a conflict.

Cygnus Studios

johng wrote:

For my part, as a homeowner, I might be a bit upset if I knew a person had carte blanche to take photos and use them for profit on my property using the fire department as access to get those photos.

That is a darn good point. I do freelance for some area newspapers and I am often granted access that others do not get. I would not consider using the images taken at times of strife for personal gain. It is a can of worms that I have no desire to open up.

While I have a greater latitude of protection granted by the newspaper, once the line of personal use is crossed, I open myself up to possibilities that may cause more trouble than it is worth.

coldclimb

Just a quick reply to let you all know I'm reading what you write and considering it.

Good points everyone! And thanks for the link to Dan Heller, he's got some great resources I hadn't run across before. I've spent yesterday and today reading and reading, and I've barely skimmed the surface.

We do have a state firefighters association, and I can easily earmark the profits to go there instead of to me, which would be a perfectly fine solution for me since I'm more interested in making a cool calendar that everyone will like than in making money for myself. That's probably the option I'll pursue especially for this current situation with the calendar, but I also want to leave the door open for my personal use of my photos sometime in the future, should I want to. Things like publication in books of my own photography and such.

Also good points on the private property issue. I guess it would be a good idea to limit publications in the community to photos that don't show the property so much as the firefighters in action. I have clear examples of both in my work, with images showing a whole house and the fire activity around it, and the other end of the spectrum with a simple firefighter silhouette outlined in the smoke over an unrecognizable rubble pile. Clearly one of those has potential to incite feelings in the homeowner, and the other homeowner has little to no chance of even knowing it was their house...

Some great food for thought, and if anyone has anything else to add please do speak up, I'm wanting to learn here and I can take criticism, however harsh!

Oh, and Sam, to ease your mind a bit, typically I'm taking photos on fire scenes while I'm supposed to be sitting in rehab resting after going through a couple bottles of air. EMS stuff and car accidents and such, while often presenting opportunities for photos, are a little less ideal for a quality final product, largely due to the fact that the victim is usually IN the pictures, whereas with a fire, the tragedy is a little less dramatically obvious and viewers can often just enjoy the less-considered awesome side of the event.

On that note, gotta go help somebody!

Mox

Agreed. I also agree that if someone is on my property because I have an emergency, photography is the last thing I want them to be thinking about.



Edit: And, of course your post came in as I was typing - thanks for clarifying.

Angelo

John:

I've watched and enjoyed your posts and adventures over the years and I know you to be a good-hearted, brave and selfless man.

Anyone who has seen your climb photos are in awe of your skill and those who've seen you in action fighting fire deeply embedded in the forest know you possess bravery far beyond what most of us will ever face.

I never thought for a moment your intent was based in profiteering or absent respect for those around you in dangerous circumstances.

I hope you find an outlet for your idea and have little doubt it will be respected and appreciated by those who truly matter to you. If there's any way in which I can assist you realize your goal do not hesitate to ask.


.

orljustin

Angelo wrote:

do not confuse what you do while on-the-clock with a work-for-hire, they are not the same.
.

Do not confuse what you read on an internet forum for the correct answer. They are not the same.

Angelo

orljustin wrote:

Do not confuse what you read on an internet forum for the correct answer. They are not the same.

and sometimes they are.

coldclimb

Well I spoke with the chief about giving all the proceeds to the state firefighters association, and I think that should work for us to avoid the issue of ME making money. I'm not too disappointed about giving it all to them, cause it's a good cause, it'll help get an awesome calendar on the market for the firefighters and community, and I suppose my name at least will be on it.

I'll re-do my layout so no recognizable property gets published, and I'm thinking of getting model releases from the firefighters even though I don't think I'll need them.

This thread has been a great help, thanks to everyone that offered some input! And keep it up if you think of anything I haven't, I'm definitely learning here.

Ken K

I suggest that you consult with "The Photo Attorney", Carolyn Wright. Here is her web site: http://www.photoattorney.com/

Ken