Canon 70-200 F/4 and F/2.8

canon400d

Hi Ziggy
I took your last advice when I decided to go for the 17-55 2.8 and as you said, I would agree, it has hardly been off my camera. However, I have been doing a load of Autograss car venues some I have put on the Sports Forum. I have been using my 40D with my 70-200L F/4. The thing is would I be able to improve with a F2.8 lens. I see everyone using the 2.8 everywhere I go and I feel I am probably missing out. I spoke to a guy next to me on a car venue and he said he hardly ever used 2.8.
You did a wonderful job explaining the 17-55 which I truly appreciate and I hope I can get some similar advice as it is an expensive lens like the 17-55.
Regards
Bob

photokandy

Your 70-200mm f/4 is a fantastic lens; as are all the lenses in that family. Going to f/2.8 gives you an additional stop of light (twice as much as f/4), so if you shoot in low light, you'll be able to use a lower ISO. f/2.8 will also allow you to use a faster shutter speed to obtain the same exposure, so it has better subject freezing capabilities.

All that said, all the 70-200mm lenses are excellent. I have the 70-200mm f/4 with IS, and absolutely adore it. It will forever be in my camera bag and attached to a body. I did consider going up to the f/2.8, but since my body is an XSi/T1i, the f/2.8 didn't really balance well, so I went with the lighter (and cheaper) version, but I don't think that would be a problem on your 40d.

One thing you shouldn't count on is any huge improvement in your images. Your current lens is excellent with regards to optics, and any of the other 70-200mm lenses are also excellent. So if you do get the f/2.8, go into it understanding that you're really just getting better low-light/freezing capabilities.

Hopefully that helps some?

ziggy53

Hi Bob,

As long as you understand that the f2.8 versions of the Canon 70-200mm lenses are "much" heavier than the f4 versions. That's the main problem I have with mine. I actually wear a back brace if I use the EF 70-200mm, f2.8 for a longer event. Otherwise I was getting a back ache that would last into the next day.

The f2.8 is slightly less crisp than the f4 version, even at the same aperture. It is still a very capable lens but I generally require some sharpening on every image, where the f4 version only occasionally needs sharpening.

For indoor and low-light work, the f2.8 aperture can be a life saver, and the IS version helps with camera shake. (I have the non-IS version, which does require some careful technique to use in low-light.)

canon400d

ziggy53 wrote:

Hi Bob,

As long as you understand that the f2.8 versions of the Canon 70-200mm lenses are "much" heavier than the f4 versions. That's the main problem I have with mine. I actually wear a back brace if I use the EF 70-200mm, f2.8 for a longer event. Otherwise I was getting a back ache that would last into the next day.

The f2.8 is slightly less crisp than the f4 version, even at the same aperture. It is still a very capable lens but I generally require some sharpening on every image, where the f4 version only occasionally needs sharpening.

For indoor and low-light work, the f2.8 aperture can be a life saver, and the IS version helps with camera shake. (I have the non-IS version, which does require some careful technique to use in low-light.)

Thanks ever so much to the first reply and I really appreciate every thing you have said. Am I right in saying I should stay put with what I have got as I am a true amateur and love photography so much.
Ziggy yes you were right with the 17-55 2.8. You have always given me so much positive advice in the past. I don't shoot inside. What should I do I have always placed my confidence in you?
Regards
Bob

ziggy53

canon400d wrote:

Thanks ever so much to the first reply and I really appreciate every thing you have said. Am I right in saying I should stay put with what I have got as I am a true amateur and love photography so much.
Ziggy yes you were right with the 17-55 2.8. You have always given me so much positive advice in the past. I don't shoot inside. What should I do I have always placed my confidence in you?
Regards
Bob

For most outdoor applications, the f4 version is an excellent zoom. I do suggest that the "IS" f4 version is the best of breed. Remember to let the IS "settle" a bit before the point of actuation for best results. (Push the shutter button halfway to set AF and actuate the IS, then hold still for 1/2 second or so to let the IS sense its environment and set the appropriate correction. After you see the image settle, snap the image.)

canon400d

ziggy53 wrote:

For most outdoor applications, the f4 version is an excellent zoom. I do suggest that the "IS" f4 version is the best of breed. Remember to let the IS "settle" a bit before the point of actuation for best results. (Push the shutter button halfway to set AF and actuate the IS, then hold still for 1/2 second or so to let the IS sense its environment and set the appropriate correction. After you see the image settle, snap the image.)

Hi Ziggy,
Thanks for that but my F/4 does not have IS and this is what I am on about. Ok I do a bit of panning so the IS if I am right will not come into it. Can I just ask, why is it everyone around me has a 2.8 to my F4 if you can follow. I will always be guided by you as you well know.

kini62

canon400d wrote:

Hi Ziggy,
Thanks for that but my F/4 does not have IS and this is what I am on about. Ok I do a bit of panning so the IS if I am right will not come into it. Can I just ask, why is it everyone around me has a 2.8 to my F4 if you can follow. I will always be guided by you as you well know.

They likely have the 2.8 vresions because they shoot other events that require the extra stop of SS or prefer the slightly shallower DOF afforded by the 2.8 version.

I do disagree that the 2.8 version is not as sharp at F4 as the F4 version though. Mine is already that sharp just bumping it to 3.2.

Gene

ziggy53

canon400d wrote:

Hi Ziggy,
Thanks for that but my F/4 does not have IS and this is what I am on about. Ok I do a bit of panning so the IS if I am right will not come into it. Can I just ask, why is it everyone around me has a 2.8 to my F4 if you can follow. I will always be guided by you as you well know.

The f2.8 is more versatile in that it is more suited to indoor and low light work, which you said you do not do. If you were to ask them they probably do some indoor photography so they might need the extra stop of light gathering power of the f2.8.

If you shoot at higher shutter speeds, let's say at 1/250th on up, then you probably don't need the IS. IS is mostly helpful with slower shutter speeds of maybe 1/30th to 1/100th. Below 1/30th and I recommend physical stabilization instead. (Tripod or monopod)

The EF 70-200mm, f4L IS USM has a very modern IS system and "Mode 2" is designed for panning motion, so yes, it will stabilize during a pan if you switch to Mode 2.

James H

canon400d wrote:

Can I just ask, why is it everyone around me has a 2.8 to my F4 if you can follow.

Not Ziggy here, obviously, but one thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is the affect of aperture on auto focus sensitivity. Basically, the wider the lens's maximum aperture, the better the AF will be able to operate, especially in low light. It doesn't matter if you're shooting at f/2.8 or f/4 or f/8, what matters is the available light the AF has to work with before the lens stops down to take a shot, so a wider aperture lens starts out with an advantage.

Also, cameras have different types of AF sensors, cross-type (most accurate/faster) and vertical. Many cameras vary the number of cross-type sensors available depending on the aperture of the lens, with the widest aperture lenses utilizing all of the cross-type sensors available. This page has more info on the subject. Scroll about halfway down to the section labeled 'NUMBER & TYPE OF AUTOFOCUS POINTS' and roll your mouse over the various aperture sizes to see how the AF points change depending on lens aperture.

Another benefit to a wider aperture lens is a brighter view through the viewfinder. The difference between f/4 and f/2.8 isn't all that noticeable in daylight situations but, it does come in handy in low light.

Anyway, I hope this is somewhat helpful. I had many of the same questions before buying my f/2.8 and the AF issue is what ultimately sold me on the faster lens. Although I was reluctant to part with the extra cash at first, I quickly got over that and became one of the 'lovers' of this lens. I wouldn't trade it for anything at this point. Now I just need a better body to fully utilize all the lens has to offer.

ziggy53

James H wrote:

Not Ziggy here, obviously, but one thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is the affect of aperture on auto focus sensitivity. Basically, the wider the lens's maximum aperture, the better the AF will be able to operate, especially in low light. It doesn't matter if you're shooting at f/2.8 or f/4 or f/8, what matters is the available light the AF has to work with before the lens stops down to take a shot, so a wider aperture lens starts out with an advantage.

Also, cameras have different types of AF sensors, cross-type (most accurate/faster) and vertical. Many cameras vary the number of cross-type sensors available depending on the aperture of the lens, with the widest aperture lenses utilizing all of the cross-type sensors available. This page has more info on the subject. Scroll about halfway down to the section labeled 'NUMBER & TYPE OF AUTOFOCUS POINTS' and roll your mouse over the various aperture sizes to see how the AF points change depending on lens aperture.

Another benefit to a wider aperture lens is a brighter view through the viewfinder. The difference between f/4 and f/2.8 isn't all that noticeable in daylight situations but, it does come in handy in low light.

Anyway, I hope this is somewhat helpful. I had many of the same questions before buying my f/2.8 and the AF issue is what ultimately sold me on the faster lens. Although I was reluctant to part with the extra cash at first, I quickly got over that and became one of the 'lovers' of this lens. I wouldn't trade it for anything at this point. Now I just need a better body to fully utilize all the lens has to offer.

That's true. Many modern cameras do have a central focus point with extra sensitivity and accuracy using lenses with a maximum aperture of f2.8 or better. Good point.

Scott_Quier

In the FWIW column, my son just purchased (new from B&H) the EF 70-200 f/4L USM (non-IS). To test how well it's mated to his Canon 30D, we used this device



(but outside as the weather was nice). Looking at the results at various apertures and focal lengths - WOW, that thing is just razor sharp, even at f/4. Though I have the EF 70-200 f/2.8L IS USM, I am suffering from a very sever case of lens envy. It is such a nice, small, and very sweet lens.

Maybe this weekend, Matt will allow me to mount his lens on my camera, dial it in (AF Microadjust) if necessary and do some test shots to compare it to my version at various apertures and focal lengths.

Hmmmm .... maybe he'll let me take his lens to the Shoot Out rather than force me to carry my heavy version - there's a thought.

canon400d

Scott_Quier wrote:

In the FWIW column, my son just purchased (new from B&H) the EF 70-200 f/4L USM (non-IS). To test how well it's mated to his Canon 30D, we used this device



(but outside as the weather was nice). Looking at the results at various apertures and focal lengths - WOW, that thing is just razor sharp, even at f/4. Though I have the EF 70-200 f/2.8L IS USM, I am suffering from a very sever case of lens envy. It is such a nice, small, and very sweet lens.

Maybe this weekend, Matt will allow me to mount his lens on my camera, dial it in (AF Microadjust) if necessary and do some test shots to compare it to my version at various apertures and focal lengths.

Hmmmm .... maybe he'll let me take his lens to the Shoot Out rather than force me to carry my heavy version - there's a thought.

Thanks once again Ziggy and also to Kini 62, Harry and Scott for the advice on this matter. In view of what Has been said and the fact that I do not do any indoor shoots I am probably just as well keeping the F4 and ensure that I maintain high shutter speeds to compensate the IS.
Regards
Bob

Rocketman766

Scott_Quier wrote:

In the FWIW column, my son just purchased (new from B&H) the EF 70-200 f/4L USM (non-IS). To test how well it's mated to his Canon 30D, we used this device



(but outside as the weather was nice). Looking at the results at various apertures and focal lengths - WOW, that thing is just razor sharp, even at f/4. Though I have the EF 70-200 f/2.8L IS USM, I am suffering from a very sever case of lens envy. It is such a nice, small, and very sweet lens.

Maybe this weekend, Matt will allow me to mount his lens on my camera, dial it in (AF Microadjust) if necessary and do some test shots to compare it to my version at various apertures and focal lengths.

Hmmmm .... maybe he'll let me take his lens to the Shoot Out rather than force me to carry my heavy version - there's a thought.

When you used this set up to test and adjust the lens, how far is the camera from the target? The research I found on the internet says to have the camera 50 times the focal distance from the target. With my 70-200, this puts me 32 feet away...sound correct? My first test results told me NOTHING... I was not impressed with my images at all... I am sure its all operator error, but I want to make sure.

Scott_Quier

Rocketman766 wrote:

When you used this set up to test and adjust the lens, how far is the camera from the target? The research I found on the internet says to have the camera 50 times the focal distance from the target. With my 70-200, this puts me 32 feet away...sound correct? My first test results told me NOTHING... I was not impressed with my images at all... I am sure its all operator error, but I want to make sure.

It's all rule of thumb. My take on it is to calibrate the lens/camera combination by focusing at the distance at which the lens is most likely to be used - more or less. With zooms, I also do the calibration at the focal length at which I suspect I will most likely use the lens - if known Basically, you want to test/calibrate under the conditions similar to those under which the lens/camera combination is most likely to be used.