Help please, I suck, HS football at night

stacyz76

:dunno
I have read books, I have read this forum, I have tried shooting in Tv mode as well as manual and the pictures are too dark. If the are exposed correctly, they are blurry, if the are sharp, they are dark. Can someone please help me.

I have an XSi and use the 55-250 lens
Here is a pic from 2 weeks ago. It seems the best I can do is set my shutter to 1/250 at 1600 ISO f5.6 focal length is 250 exposure bias is +2


Here is another 1/250 at 1600 ISO f5 focal length is 96mm exposure bias is +2


Any, and I mean any help is greatly appreciated!

Not sure why the pics didnt show up?

Here is the first ( I Hope)




Second

catspaw

Alas, f5.6 won't quite be enough for night time football. Is that the setting you used, or is that as fast as your lens goes?

Nwestrnr

Personally I set my lens at f2.8 and try to shoot around ISO 400 if you can't go that wide you will have to up your ISO setting, some disagree but I use flash at night at the high school games with no problems. The lighting tends to be les than favorable untill you get into collage ball the lighting tends to be better on most fields

chris84

First try setting your lens to f4 (wide open for this lens), this will double the exposure compared to f5.6 right off the bat. Will the league allow flash? If not and you still cant get a proper exposure at f4 you may need to upgrade to a lens like the 70-200 f2.8 or a fast prime (85mm 1.8, 135mm f2)

Dano

You have reached the limits of your gear. Some of the fields I shoot at are 6400iso, 2.8, 400s. You will need to use flash or upgrade your equipment.

johng

Dano wrote:

You have reached the limits of your gear. Some of the fields I shoot at are 6400iso, 2.8, 400s. You will need to use flash or upgrade your equipment.

This is right on the mark. Your current gear is not up to the task. And by flash, it's important it be an external flash - the built-in won't be powerful enough, nor will it charge fast enough to be of much use. Even still, you're going to have a challenge because of focus speed of your lens. If you use AI-Servo you won't get the benefit of focus-assist of the flash. You would have to use single shot.

Truth is, I use f2.8 AND flash for HS football.

And, with the ISO 1600 limit of the XSI you're not going to have much choice - you'll HAVE to use a flash. The best HS stadiums I've shot in require ISO 3200 f2.8 to get 1/400-1/500. So save up your pennies for some additional gear.

stacyz76

Thank you thank you thank you...

I can no stop beating my head into the wall

Being so new to this type of photography, it didn't even occur to me that that lens wouldn't cut it.

rovowen

stacyz76 wrote:

Thank you thank you thank you...

I can no stop beating my head into the wall

Being so new to this type of photography, it didn't even occur to me that that lens wouldn't cut it.

I have used the Canon 55-250mm lens for night football. But with a 40D and 580 flash. Have to post process photos, for some reason doesn't look
like I used any noise reduction on this photo.

ladykassie

I have been shadowing a sports photographer for the newspaper for some high school football games..
you can see them here:

http://vision-vault.smugmug.com/Viewing-Gallery/Football

dang I am sorry, I forgot to put the high school on up.. I will do that, asap

He has taught me alot...
I have a canon Rebel xsi.. and used my 400mm len and a tripod.
manual mode
shutter to start out at 1/350 ( which that HS football game I was tooo low 1/80) and apeture at the highest opening, iso at 1600
You have to play with the both untill you get what you are comfortable with, it changes everytime you move your camera position (ie the field lights, that is why there is no real settings for any event or what have you, because everything changes)... practice practice and always look at your pictures once and awhile.

if any one wants to correct me please feel free to .. I am learning too!

~alice

jmphotocraft

chris84 wrote:

First try setting your lens to f4 (wide open for this lens)

At the 250mm end, this lens's maximum aperture is f/5.6. I assume it is also f/5.6 well down the zoom range. This simply is not going to cut it for night football or indoor basketball, etc. You need an f/2.8 lens or faster. f/2.8 is two stops (four times) faster than f/5.6. e.g., if a scene meters at 1/50 f/5.6, it will meter at 1/200 f/2.8.

stacyz76 wrote:

It seems the best I can do is set my shutter to 1/250 at 1600 ISO f5.6 focal length is 250 exposure bias is +2

If you are setting both shutter and aperture manually, exposure compensation does nothing to the output.

Dano

Rovowen, you shouldn't have noise if you are using flash. That is the whole point of using flash is to shoot at a lower iso and avoid the noise of high iso. You shouldn't have to go higher then 800 iso. That photo was under exposed and brought up in post you won't get that kind of noise straight out of the camera.

John my best field is a JC stadium that the high school I shoot for plays their home games. It is also 32/500 so I always shoot flash now. I just like the look better. Most fields would have to be shot at 6400 iso.

Alice worry about shutter last. First would be open aperture as wide as possible. 2nd in your case because you have limited iso, set to 1600. From there all you have now is the shutter speed to set correct exposure. It is what it is at that point and in most cases will be way to slow.

If I shoot ambient I will only go as low as 400s until I will up my iso.

johng

also on flash - if you really want to improve things, get the flash OFF the camera. That will get rid of the red-eye illustrated in the posted photo. I mount mine on my monopod - has the added benefit of keeping it low so more light is below rather than above the subject. The massive red-eye in a lot of football shots destroys the whites of the eyes too so it's hard to repair. Getting the flash off the camera really makes a difference:

Nwestrnr

johng wrote:

also on flash - if you really want to improve things, get the flash OFF the camera. That will get rid of the red-eye illustrated in the posted photo. I mount mine on my monopod - has the added benefit of keeping it low so more light is below rather than above the subject. The massive red-eye in a lot of football shots destroys the whites of the eyes too so it's hard to repair. Getting the flash off the camera really makes a difference:

Good tip John, I forgot to add I do this as well. Only difference is I made a telescoping pole for my flash 3' to 6' high pointed on the end so it just sticks were I want it.. Grab it and go !

BTW NICE shots John

ladykassie

some of us just can't afford to get a $3000 to $8000 lens..

Stacy.... keep at it.. learn to be comfortable with what you have and make it work for you. Learn what you can do and what you can not do using the lenses that you have and stay focus on that.
No one is perfect.. and don't get intimated or frustrated by some others equipment, focus on you, what your doing and practice.. You can do it.. ;0)
~alice

jmphotocraft

ladykassie wrote:

some of us just can't afford to get a $3000 to $8000 lens..

70-200/2.8 = $1350, with IS = $2000

135/2 = $1000

100/2 = $650

85/1.8 = $570

Stacy.... keep at it.. learn to be comfortable with what you have and make it work for you.

Bare minimum she will need a powerful flash to help the lens she has.

johng

ladykassie wrote:

some of us just can't afford to get a $3000 to $8000 lens..

Stacy.... keep at it.. learn to be comfortable with what you have and make it work for you. Learn what you can do and what you can not do using the lenses that you have and stay focus on that.
No one is perfect.. and don't get intimated or frustrated by some others equipment, focus on you, what your doing and practice.. You can do it.. ;0)
~alice

This is a very nice sentiment. It's also a bit misguided. First, no one is suggesting the OP needs to buy an $8000 lens. Second, it's a bit naive to suggest that practice alone will allow the OP to get improved shots of night time football with the current gear limitations. It's an exercise in frustration. Daytime sports would be completely different.

To re-iterate:
step 1) Buy an external flash. Since the OP is in the Canon system there are several options. 430ex is one, but it's a little under-powered and takes a while to recharge. A sigma 530DG Super will be a big improvement for not much more cash ($220). The Canon 580exII is the best bet (great power output and the ability to add the battery pack which improves recycle time and less need to change batteries) - but quite pricey at $420.

So, for $220 the OP can see an improvement. That's much more valid advice than saying "keep pounding your head against the wall sooner or later the wall will break".

Now, as mentioned there are still some issues the OP should be aware of - namely focus performance. As I stated, the OP can make a decision - work in AI Servo to get more action shots but realize focus assist will not work and their current lens will have some focus issues. Or, switch to one-shot and gain the benefit of focus-assist from the flash. The suggestion would be for the OP to try BOTH ways and see which produces better results.

2) Buy a 2.8 lens. Sigma 70-200 2.8 is the least expensive option I would recommend (Tamron has a sharp lens but slow to focus). The Sigma sells for $800. For the OP, they would STILL need to use flash because of the ISO 1600 limit of their camera. But when they upgrade the body down the road they have the option of shooting at 3200-6400 and not using flash if they prefer. What the 2.8 would give the OP is focus performance so they could use flash and AI-Servo.

All of this is why it's good to get advice from people that actually shoot nighttime football - preferably BEFORE you spend money on equipment. For certain, better lenses will lead to better shots. But it's naive to suggest equipment has no bearig and a photographer should continue to get frustrated by bad results insinuating it's their lack of skill that is giving bad results and with more practice the results will get better. In this specific case, it's not the photographer's lack of skill - it's the equipment.

ladykassie

sorry if I stepped out of my "lack of knowledge" place. Again I am still learning. Everyone is different, each photographer is different.
I was just trying to give her encouragement.
IE: Learn what you can do and what you can not do using the lenses that you have and stay focus on that.

To me, it's like saying forget it, you don't have the right lens nor the right camera so don't waste your time, and that hurts and go shot some flowers.

Give her the chance to get a feel of what she has... I have to same camera as she does, and I am working with what I have to shoot sports ...That's why I have been shadowing a sports photographer at some games. He has not once critized me for what camera and lens I have.

Again, I am sorry if I came across different then what I meant to state.

† Peace

~alice

johng

Alice,

It's not a matter of criticizing. There's just no good way to get good photos with f5.6 ISO 1600 for night time football. Unfortunately night time football is more difficult than daytime sports. None of us like it but we all have to live with it because it's a reality we can't change. Like a person who wants to shoot birds in flight but only has a 50mm lens. They can try all they like and 1 in 1000 might be good but in the meantime they'll keep getting frustrated thinking they're doing something wrong. When,in fact, it isn't them it's that they're using the wrong tool for the job. The people here aren't 2nd graders. I don't think it's putting someone down to suggest they need to use a flash. Nor is it putting them down to spell out the pros/cons of equipment they could try to improve their shots. It's just basic advice. If this type of advice is damaging to your ego I think you're going to find it difficult getting GOOD advice from qualified shooters. Good advice means explaining what equipment is needed and what equipment is beneficial. Low light sports shooting requires a bit more equipment than daylight does. If your mentor isn't explaining that to you then he's not doing a very good job of educating you. Of course this is just my opinion. If you don't like my advice you are free to discard it. It won't hurt my feelings.

ladykassie

I respect your opinion and I respect everyone as a photographer.. I am so sorry if I came across _____________ fill in the blank..

I understand.

Jacobovs

johng wrote:

also on flash - if you really want to improve things, get the flash OFF the camera. That will get rid of the red-eye illustrated in the posted photo. I mount mine on my monopod - has the added benefit of keeping it low so more light is below rather than above the subject. The massive red-eye in a lot of football shots destroys the whites of the eyes too so it's hard to repair. Getting the flash off the camera really makes a difference:

That's a great tip. How do you point the flash? Straight out or up?

johng

Jacobovs wrote:

That's a great tip. How do you point the flash? Straight out or up?

Strait out. The light will naturally spread up/down enough to illuminate the subject.

StevenV

somebody here, a while back, posted that they taped the flash to the same monopod on which they carried their camera, about knee-height. I think they said they had to adjust color a little because the flash was bringing out so much green from the turf.

Dano

Some mount them below some above. I have tried both but prefer above.

Jacobovs

Dano wrote:

Some mount them below some above. I have tried both but prefer above.

If you don't mind me asking, why above? and what is that you rigged up? Is it custom or something one can buy?

Dano

This is just what I prefer many shoot below with success. With flashed football you try to balance ambient and flash to keep from having shadows, but they are inevitable and the ones cast by the angle of the lower flash I didn't care for. I think having it higher just mimics the over head lights better. Again just my opinion. John which do you use?

I also hear that you get the face better from below but I never have a problem with this.





I use a Pro SQ bracket and customized it. Took the handle off and put on a Wimberley quick release plate. Also made it extend a few inches higher and use a Quantum battery to speed up recycle.

crazy7photography

ladykassie wrote:

I have been shadowing a sports photographer for the newspaper for some high school football games..
you can see them here:

http://vision-vault.smugmug.com/Viewing-Gallery/Football

dang I am sorry, I forgot to put the high school on up.. I will do that, asap


~alice

Alice,
Great photos, What 400 lens are you using?

Graham Cracker

Dano wrote:

Some mount them below some above. I have tried both but prefer above.


Can I ask if your flash is a 580? also what type of power source do you use.(Just saw you said Quantum, sorry) I have never tried flash with HS football but there are times I would like to try. Thanks Patrick

Kixx

Curious about flash at night Football Games
You guys and gals who use flash at night games, do you need to get authorization from anybody if you're on the sidelines taking pics using flash during games? Are there 'different rules' for end zone flash?

Thanks!

johng

Kixx wrote:

You guys and gals who use flash at night games, do you need to get authorization from anybody if you're on the sidelines taking pics using flash during games? Are there 'different rules' for end zone flash?

Thanks!

Not in NE Ohio where I shoot. Of course I use common sense. If I'm on the sideline and a runner is 3 yards away coming right at me, I don't blast him. But the reality is, except for an extreme example like that, most players I've talked to don't even register teh fact the flash is used. Indoor sports are a bit different - gymnastics I've never heard of it being allowed on-camera, volleyball in some places but still not by me, wrestling and basketball it is A-OK. But I can't speak for the entire united states.

Dano

Grham Craker answered in PM.

Kixx flash is pretty widely used and accepted in So. Cal. as well. I shot a game for a private Christian school and meet with the AD before the game to make sure I was alright with flash. Thankfully they had no problem with it because ambient was 6400/200/2.8

Graham Cracker

Dano wrote:

Grham Craker answered in PM.

Kixx flash is pretty widely used and accepted in So. Cal. as well. I shot a game for a private Christian school and meet with the AD before the game to make sure I was alright with flash. Thankfully they had no problem with it because ambient was 6400/200/2.8

I agree with Dan, I shoot a small private school in GA and any money I make I donate back to school so they are excited to have the money and great pictures for their publications. I have to confess though I don't use flash much on field.