Alienbees B800 vs B1600 vs WL x1600

chrisdg

Hello,

I was about to pull the trigger on a single AlienBees B1600 with the 47" octabox, but the rep at Paul C Buff suggested that unless I wish to light larger rooms, groups and/or overpower significant sunlight, that I am likely better off with the B800 for this reason: Lighting a model with a B1600, even at it's lowest power setting often results in blowing out the subject. On the other hand, a B800 at it's lowest power is more likely to result in a good mix. This is exactly what I was worried about, and actually experienced yesterday in my 5-minutes testing an B1600 briefly with a friend. I figured I was just doing something wrong and needed more time with it.

If you shoot portraits with the AB1600, do you often find yourself wishing for an even lower setting? (i realize that outdoors I can keep pulling the flash further away from the subject to reduce the intensity, but this results in a smaller light source and sharper shadows).

My main need will typically be shooting one person (sometimes 2 or 3), outdoors, but ideally in shady or overcast conditions - sometimes full sun. Basically location-based glamour shots.

I am also considering instead one of their White Lightning x1600 flash units, because you've then basically got the power potential of the AB1600 but with the 1/4 power switch to bring it down way low. (7-stop range). Unfortunately you also lose portability by increasing unit size and weight (and cost).

http://www.alienbees.com/b800.html
http://www.white-lightning.com/x1600.html

I am so undecided!!! Why is this never easy. Sheesh.

ziggy53

I use a pair of 1800 WS (effective)/900 WS (actual) monolights and at close proximity I have to use a double-diffused large softbox or shoot-through umbrella, either of which has enough loss to be practical.

Alternately, you can triple diffuse the light or add a scrim to cut the light output. Be careful with heat build up going this route.

Another problem with reducing flash tube output is that color balance can be affected at low output, usually pushing towards red.

There is no replacement for high output when you need it so I am glad I got pretty powerful heads because it's still easier to reduce the light than to suffer when you don't have enough output. The lower output monolights are also easier to find used if you want to fill in with lower output later on.

chrisdg

Thanks Ziggy - so maybe I should just get the larger White Lightning X1600 with the 1/4 power switch. That will give me low, close-proximity light without double or triple diffusion, plus fairly high power at the full end when needed. I can lug around the extra size and weight. Its probably worth it.

I also want that 47" foldable octabox with optional grid from Paul Buff, so i dont see that it has a double-diffusion option without a DIY effort.

http://www.white-lightning.com/images/foldable/fobgridfinal.gif + http://www.white-lightning.com/images/x1600.gif + http://www.white-lightning.com/VIIimages/VIIsmall3.gif + http://www.white-lightning.com/images/(web)lb11.jpg

true Ws: 660 true Ws (full), 165 true Ws (1/4 power switch)
effective Ws: 1600 Ws (full), 400 Ws (1/4 power switch)

ziggy53

White Lightning X1600 are very nice lights with a good reputation and fantastic support.

Art Scott

chrisdg wrote:

Hello,

I was about to pull the trigger on a single AlienBees B1600 with the 47" octabox, but the rep at Paul C Buff suggested that unless I wish to light larger rooms, groups and/or overpower significant sunlight, that I am likely better off with the B800 for this reason: Lighting a model with a B1600, even at it's lowest power setting often results in blowing out the subject.
This can only happen if you do not have the proper aperture set .......What ISO do you shoot at???
with studio or any flash one should normally set iso at it's lowest.....50, 100, 200........
Taking a B1600 down to 1/32 power is a very small amount of flash......I do not see how you can be blowing the model out......maybe if he/she is wearing a glitter type make up....I have had that happen even with my WL5000's but that was at full power..........



On the other hand, a B800 at it's lowest power is more likely to result in a good mix. This is exactly what I was worried about, and actually experienced yesterday in my 5-minutes testing an B1600 briefly with a friend. I figured I was just doing something wrong and needed more time with it.

It seems like Paul may have hired a used car salesman by accident......one can never go wrong with purchasing all the power one can afford.....

If you shoot portraits with the AB1600, do you often find yourself wishing for an even lower setting? (i realize that outdoors I can keep pulling the flash further away from the subject to reduce the intensity, but this results in a smaller light source and sharper shadows).

Do not move the lighting.....change the aperture....unless you really need a totally blurred background from a very large aperture, then change it from 2.8 to 11 and cut your lighting.........I need to get my hands on some of the more powerful White Lightning / Alien Bee lights to try out..........
Jonathan Swinton uses White Lightning 1600's in his studio with out a problem.....the Manhattan Ks studio was very tiny about a 10 by 16 room (I think, I was in it once and it was tiny).......
Using a Light meter can be very beneficial for working with powerful strobes (and hotshoe mount flashes also)........so much easier than chimping while with a paying client.........


My main need will typically be shooting one person (sometimes 2 or 3), outdoors, but ideally in shady or overcast conditions - sometimes full sun. Basically location-based glamour shots.

I know the WL series of lights are a lot heavier but they are fan cooled.....however is you are doing most of your shooting out doors then get the AB1600 and place a fan blowing on it in the studio......





I am also considering instead one of their White Lightning x1600 flash units, because you've then basically got the power potential of the AB1600 but with the 1/4 power switch to bring it down way low. (7-stop range). Unfortunately you also lose portability by increasing unit size and weight (and cost).

http://www.alienbees.com/b800.html
http://www.white-lightning.com/x1600.html

I am so undecided!!! Why is this never easy. Sheesh.

answers are also above in Arial Black..............

Go AB's unless you really need the fan in the unit itself................

Actually it is easy......buy all the power you can afford and in a couple months buy another of the same unit and keep doing this until you have at least 4 of the units.....I have 5 WL units that I have been using for close to and maybe longer than 20 yrs.......the Paul Buff tream cannot be beat for service......I have never talked to any sales people....when I got mine and called to talk to service it was Paul I always dealth with..........

chrisdg

Thanks again Ziggy and Art. I very much appreciate your detailed responses.

So Art. I hear you and agree, seems odd that they would suggest the AB800 over the AB1600 due to too much power in close quarters, but check out this tidbit I just found on their site:

SOURCE: http://www.paulcbuff.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=52

EXCERPT:
"If you are limited to ISO200, 300 Ws may be too much power because you may have difficulty in lowering the power enough to capture those f4 shots with close placement of the lights - particularly if you have a limited power adjustment range on your lights. If this is the case, you will be forced to move the lights further from the subject than you might prefer, or forced to use other methods such as Neutral Density filters to reduce the light levels.

Some users prefer to use lights with different power levels in such studios (i.e. a 320 Ws light for main and 160 Ws lights for fill, etc.), but many find this problematical and prefer to use three or four lights of the same power for easier interchangeability.

Our experience is that far more users end up wishing they had bought lower power lights (i.e. the AlienBees B400) rather than higher power."


Granted, with my Canon 50D, I can go down to IS0100, so this is likely much less of an issue.Also, I shouldn't have said "Blowing the model out", rather we experienced facial hot spot/s.Obviously I need more time and training on this stuff.

I've decided to go with the 1600, but still torn on WhiteLightning vs AlienBees.

Nikolai

Let me chime in...
I own ProFoto 600R, ProFoto 300R, AB800 (4 units) and AB400 (2 units), and a whole bunch of modifiers...
For a small studio that's all you'd need.
For a larger studio and especially for an outdoor shooting in the hot middday unobstructed sun you do need something more powerful. My friend, who specializes in a midday beach shooting, is using AB1600 and I totally approve his choice.

If I were to start fro scratch I would get a couple of AB1600 (or WL1600) and a whole bunch of AB/WL800. But that's just me.

chrisdg

Thanks Nik! So, quick hypothetical scenario for you (or anyone else):

You and a model are about to leave your studio and head outdoors in the afternoon with minimal gear (one light and a softbox). Do you take your WL1600 or your AB1600? and which softbox?



Cheers!
-Chris

rwells

chrisdg wrote:

I've decided to go with the 1600, but still torn on WhiteLightning vs AlienBees.

While the AB units are good, they are no-where near as tough as the White Lightning units. AB's are plastic bodies, WL's are tough aluminum. You can hammer in roofing nails with the WL and they will still work...

Both are owned by Paul Buff. WL's are more expensive ~ There is a reason for this

Nikolai

chrisdg wrote:

Thanks Nik! So, quick hypothetical scenario for you (or anyone else):

You and a model are about to leave your studio and head outdoors in the afternoon with minimal gear (one light and a softbox). Do you take your WL1600 or your AB1600? and which softbox?



Cheers!
-Chris

I don't like luggin' studio stobes around.
I'd take my two Sunpacks, maybe with silver umbrellas (if there is no wind).
Highly portable, highly versatile combo: you can do double, you can do clam, you can do criss-cross, you can do diagonal - awesome stuff.

I don't have WL, but I'd presume they are similar to AB.

I'd get either unit, wagabondII (for power), and a 2x4 softbox (that what I have). I may consider their new parabolic stuff, but that thing is soooooo sensitive to wind...

Don Kondra

For Art...

The AB1600's are fan cooled

Cheers, Don

ziggy53

I'll throw in a plug for the Flashpoint II monolights. Fan cooled and metal skinned they are durable and quick to recycle. The Flashpoint II Model 1820A have enough power to work in sunlight and enough power control that I don't have much trouble in small rooms either.

User, and field, replaceable flash tubes and modeling light. Plenty of power options from 300 WS (effective) through 2400 WS (effective). (Different models.) The 1820s have infinite power control from full to 1/8th (with moderate color shift.)

I use a pair of these monolights along with a bevy of battery powered flashes, both shoe flashes and handle bracket flashes, to produce my lighting needs.

All of the following are using the Flashpoint 1820A monolights as primary:











The Flashpoint use standard umbrellas, but they have a proprietary speed ring. While they have enough modifiers to meet my needs, you might want to research speed ring adapters in order to use other manufacturer modifiers.

The lights:

http://www.adorama.com/searchsite/default.aspx?searchinfo=flashpoint%20monolight

Modifiers:

http://www.adorama.com/FP2BD.html
http://www.adorama.com/SZGS7.html
http://www.adorama.com/FP2SN.html
http://www.adorama.com/FP2SB2436.html

Photoflex Adapter ring (I gather others are available):

http://www.adorama.com/PF9107FP.html

Art Scott

Don Kondra wrote:

For Art...

The AB1600's are fan cooled

Cheers, Don

Yes.....I finally found that on the products feature page.....Thanx Don......I did not think that Paul would send out a system like the AB without but could not find it whilst looking prior to posting..............

EDIT: AFTER THOUGHT...........While perusinmg my Rosco filter swatch book I noticed ND filters and also heavier spun white diffusion filters.........this could help in extreme cases of too much light.......

rwells

Art Scott wrote:

Yes.....I finally found that on the products feature page.....Thanx Don......I did not think that Paul would send out a system like the AB without but could not find it whilst looking prior to posting..............

That's why I'm holding on to my White Lightning Ultra's = No Fan

If your shooting in nasty, dusty dirty places (rodeo's - bull riding, etc), you don't want a fan pulling all that into your strobes.

mrcoons

Ziggy, do they make a powerpack for the Flashpoint lights? I looked around on Adorama's site but did not see any mention made of one.

Art Scott

Randy.....you could always use a piece of women's hose to filter the dirt and dust from getting into your flash unit:D

Spray with a dust collector like Pledge of Dust Off or something similar that is oil free and you keep the indsides of the strobe much cleaner than with out.....but occaisonal cleaning of the insides doesn't hurt either.........

ziggy53

mrcoons wrote:

Ziggy, do they make a powerpack for the Flashpoint lights? I looked around on Adorama's site but did not see any mention made of one.

No, but the Alien Bee Vagabond II system should work.

I will also be testing my units on a "true/pure" sinewave inverter and deep discharge battery. (Don't try to use a cheap inverter with "modified" sine wave as that will almost certainly cause damage to the flash.) If I have success and don't destroy my units I'll make a recommendation. It will be a while before I'm satisfied and report back, so the Vagabond units are the best bet for a commercially available remote power source for now.

HelenOster

Message from Helen at Adorama Camera

ziggy53 wrote:

No, but the Alien Bee Vagabond II system should work.

I will also be testing my units on a "true/pure" sinewave inverter and deep discharge battery. (Don't try to use a cheap inverter with "modified" sine wave as that will almost certainly cause damage to the flash.) If I have success and don't destroy my units I'll make a recommendation. It will be a while before I'm satisfied and report back, so the Vagabond units are the best bet for a commercially available remote power source for now.

I don't want to be 'the voice of doom', but this is from the site that makes the Vagabond power pack:


"The Vagabond II is designed specifically for powering Paul C. Buff, Inc.™ products and we cannot make any claim for suitability with products from other manufacturers, nor can we accept any liability for any damage that might be caused to such equipment. We will, however, warranty the Vagabond II itself as well as any Paul C. Buff, Inc.™ equipment it powers".


So… it MAY work but I wouldn’t suggest it......

ziggy53

HelenOster wrote:

I don't want to be 'the voice of doom', but this is from the site that makes the Vagabond power pack:


"The Vagabond II is designed specifically for powering Paul C. Buff, Inc.™ products and we cannot make any claim for suitability with products from other manufacturers, nor can we accept any liability for any damage that might be caused to such equipment. We will, however, warranty the Vagabond II itself as well as any Paul C. Buff, Inc.™ equipment it powers".


So… it MAY work but I wouldn’t suggest it......

You are right to recommend caution and I'm sure that any warranty that covers the flash units would not cover using a third-party mobile power pack.