Vivitar 285HV slaves on Canon system?

kdog

I'm thinking of picking up a couple of Vivitar 285s to use as background/hair lights to compliment my 580EX II's. I currently either use master/slave on my 580's or the ST-2. If I got the Vivitars, what's the best way to trigger them with my setup? Or is there another route I should go without spending a grand on a couple more 580's?

Thanks folks,
-joel

Art Scott

either optical slaves or getting a set of RF slave triggers for all of your flash units............remember the optical slaves will fire from any burst of light not just your flash....but any flash.........I used to get so mad at weddings seeing my Sunpak 522 and 622's blinking away when I was trying to get my shots........of course all of their photos wer well over exposed with at least 2 of those flashes fireing at once....I just hated waiting forthem to recycle.........

kdog

Thanks, Art. I'm assuming the RF slave triggers are out because they're not compatible with my Canon wireless setup (IE, no ETTL, no manual power controls, etc.) I still want to use that for my main lights.

The optical triggers for background lights look more promising. I don't shoot weddings, so I'm not afraid of interference from other flashes. Do you know if they'll false-trigger on my ETTL pre-flashes?

Regards,
-joel

Art Scott

kdog wrote:

Thanks, Art. I'm assuming the RF slave triggers are out because they're not compatible with my Canon wireless setup (IE, no ETTL, no manual power controls, etc.) I still want to use that for my main lights.

The optical triggers for background lights look more promising. I don't shoot weddings, so I'm not afraid of interference from other flashes. Do you know if they'll false-trigger on my ETTL pre-flashes?

Regards,
-joel

False fire with a pre-flash.......mine did......when I got my first dedicated auto everything flash and it had the red eye stopper function and also other preflash setting that could be programmed in,,,,,,,my Sunpak slave would fire from the pre-flash..............but that has to do with placement and how the eye sees the flash......maybe if you cover part of the eye with gaff tape it won't get enuff from the pre to fire, but still fire from the full blast of the strobe................

kdog

Sigh, nothing is ever easy.

Thanks again, Art.

-joel

Art Scott

kdog wrote:

Sigh, nothing is ever easy.

Thanks again, Art.

-joel

I feel your pain and in the end that is what made me succumb to the RF triggers and go back to manual shooting.
I am sorry for the BAD NEWS.........cry

ziggy53

I use the following Sunpak optical slave with good results from both "manual" flash trigger and "digital" flash trigger:

http://www.adorama.com/SUDCFA.html?searchinfo=sunpak+slave

Understand that if you use the on-camera TTL flash to trigger, you really should set the FEC to -2 or so because the camera will not communicate at all with the external flashes and not accommodate their output. The Sunpak slave also has the sensor on the front and you have to rig reflectors in order for the sensor to see the flash trigger to the side or behind. Aluminum foil works best.

If you want true E-TTL II automation your best bet, at the lowest cost, is the Sigma EF 530 DG Super flash. I use several Sigma flashes and wireless flash works pretty well.

The "easiest" is, by far, a Canon 580EX/580EX II as master and then other compatible Canon flashes as slaves, or the ST-E2 transmitter with compatible flashes. While expensive the system is easiest to use and works very well. The Canon 7D camera also has a wireless flash master capability built-in, but the range, especially outdoors, is fairly unknown.

kdog

ziggy53 wrote:

I use the following Sunpak optical slave with good results from both "manual" flash trigger and "digital" flash trigger:

http://www.adorama.com/SUDCFA.html?searchinfo=sunpak+slave

I'm completely baffled by that, Ziggy. I thought an optical slave is something that would detect the light from my existing Canon wireless flashes and fire my slave flashes. I'm picturing a little box with photo resister connected to each of my slaves. Why would I need to connect something to my camera, and how would that interoperate with my existing Canon wireless setup? Are there special slave receivers that go with that unit?

Understand that if you use the on-camera TTL flash to trigger, you really should set the FEC to -2 or so because the camera will not communicate at all with the external flashes and not accommodate their output. The Sunpak slave also has the sensor on the front and you have to rig reflectors in order for the sensor to see the flash trigger to the side or behind. Aluminum foil works best.

If you want true E-TTL II automation your best bet, at the lowest cost, is the Sigma EF 530 DG Super flash. I use several Sigma flashes and wireless flash works pretty well.

Maybe I should say a bit more about my criteria and what I'm trying to achieve. I have two 580EXII's that I use now either as master/slave, or with my ST-2. I would like to extend this system by adding a couple more cheap lights to use primarily as background lights. I don't mind using manual flash controls. What I do like with the 580EX master/slave setup is that I can control the power output of my flash groups from the master in manual mode (manual, not ETTL). That's way cool. I don't mind having to set the background lights intensity directly on the flashes though. So if I could keep my wireless manual controls on the two 580's, and adjust the outputs of my cheap lights directly on those units, that would be fine.

Maybe the Sigma units are a good compromise. They're half the price of 580's. And if they interoperate with the Canon wireless setup, then that's a great solution. I'm assuming I'd just configure them as my "C group", and I'm good to go.

The "easiest" is, by far, a Canon 580EX/580EX II as master and then other compatible Canon flashes as slaves, or the ST-E2 transmitter with compatible flashes. While expensive the system is easiest to use and works very well. The Canon 7D camera also has a wireless flash master capability built-in, but the range, especially outdoors, is fairly unknown.

Yeah, I really don't want to spend $850 on two more flashes though. Sounds like I can get two Sigmas for the price of one 580EXII and they'll do the same job. Is there anything I lose by going with the Sigma instead of the Canon?

Thanks a bunch, Ziggy. Really appreciate the input.
-joel

ziggy53

Joel, the Sigma flashes only have "some" channel compatibility, compared to Canon. I'll try to find a more definitive explanation, but it will be later tonight.

kdog

ziggy53 wrote:

Joel, the Sigma flashes only have "some" channel compatibility, compared to Canon. I'll try to find a more definitive explanation, but it will be later tonight.

Thanks, man. No hurry.

ziggy53

Best source of information regarding Sigma flashes and compatibility with Canon wireless protocol:

http://photonotes.org/reviews/sigma-ef-500-super/

Specifically this part:

"Wireless ratio control. The 550EX identifies wireless groups as A, B or C. The EF-500 Super identifies the groups as 1, 2 or 3. Functionally they’re equivalent."

According to the Sigma EF 530 DG Super user manual:

There are 4 channels, C1-C4.
There are 3 groups, 1-3.

Unfortunately, the method of setting up the channels and groups is completely different between the Canon and Sigma products. While neither is difficult to set up, I do believe that the Canon setup is simpler and easier to learn.

---

For my own use I only own and use Sigma flashes, 4 of them, and I haven't had any problem setting them up, but I do a refresher of the setup before any shoot and I carry a "cheat sheet" with me that simplifies (for me) the steps so I can work quickly.

The Sigma EF 530 DG Super, and the previous EF 500 DG Super, have an optical trigger built-in that I use a lot in manual mode. Since the power can be adjusted manually from full output through 1/128th (full stop increments), it gives fairly good control.

Like other units, outdoor wireless operation is sad. Indoor wireless operation is good to acceptable (light walls and light ceiling through colored walls and ceiling, respectively.)

I do intend some day soon to purchase a Canon ST-E2 and test it with the Sigma flashes, but it will probably be another month or 2.

kdog

Thanks, Ziggy. You rock!

I've got a lot to think about.

Cheers,
-joel

JohnRog

Hi,
I'll apologize in advance for the length of my post, i just wanted to give you as much info as possible up front... I have a question about some of the same equipment. I have a 7d and on the advice of one of the Strobist articles I picked up 2 of the Vivitar 285s and 2 of the Wein Peanut microslave optical triggers. These are my only external flash units (I wanted to force myself to learn to set things up without the TTL crutch). I wanted to be able to trigger them from the on camera flash (in manual mode to avoid triggering from preflash). The on camera flash will trigger the 285s, but I can't seem to get them synched properly. I see the Vivitars fire, but apparently the shutter has already closed. I've tried using slower shutter speeds but get the same results. If I mount one of the Vivitars to the camera's hotshoe, then everything works as it should, but I was trying to have the flexibility to use both of them as slaves. I thought it might have to do with the power output difference between the camera's flash and the 285 monsters so I experimented a bit, and snapped some shots in portrait orientation using one of the 285s on the camera (firing at 1/16th power and pointed at 90degrees horizontally toward a fairly dark brown wall) with the slave across the room (about 20' from the camera) aimed at the subject. All of the shots showed the expected light from the slave. Then I removed the 285 from the camera and set the on camera flash to full manual power, and held the camera about a foot from the slave and snapped a couple of pictures. The results still seem like the camera didn't see the light from the slave. Any suggestions? Thanks

ziggy53 wrote:

Best source of information regarding Sigma flashes and compatibility with Canon wireless protocol:

http://photonotes.org/reviews/sigma-ef-500-super/

Specifically this part:

"Wireless ratio control. The 550EX identifies wireless groups as A, B or C. The EF-500 Super identifies the groups as 1, 2 or 3. Functionally they’re equivalent."

According to the Sigma EF 530 DG Super user manual:

There are 4 channels, C1-C4.
There are 3 groups, 1-3.

Unfortunately, the method of setting up the channels and groups is completely different between the Canon and Sigma products. While neither is difficult to set up, I do believe that the Canon setup is simpler and easier to learn.

---

For my own use I only own and use Sigma flashes, 4 of them, and I haven't had any problem setting them up, but I do a refresher of the setup before any shoot and I carry a "cheat sheet" with me that simplifies (for me) the steps so I can work quickly.

The Sigma EF 530 DG Super, and the previous EF 500 DG Super, have an optical trigger built-in that I use a lot in manual mode. Since the power can be adjusted manually from full output through 1/128th (full stop increments), it gives fairly good control.

Like other units, outdoor wireless operation is sad. Indoor wireless operation is good to acceptable (light walls and light ceiling through colored walls and ceiling, respectively.)

I do intend some day soon to purchase a Canon ST-E2 and test it with the Sigma flashes, but it will probably be another month or 2.

Art Scott

Please post a pic and attach all of the exif data to the pic.....this will help us immensely.

JohnRog wrote:

Hi,
I'll apologize in advance for the length of my post, i just wanted to give you as much info as possible up front... I have a question about some of the same equipment. I have a 7d and on the advice of one of the Strobist articles I picked up 2 of the Vivitar 285s and 2 of the Wein Peanut microslave optical triggers. These are my only external flash units (I wanted to force myself to learn to set things up without the TTL crutch). I wanted to be able to trigger them from the on camera flash (in manual mode to avoid triggering from preflash). The on camera flash will trigger the 285s, but I can't seem to get them synched properly. I see the Vivitars fire, but apparently the shutter has already closed. I've tried using slower shutter speeds but get the same results. If I mount one of the Vivitars to the camera's hotshoe, then everything works as it should, but I was trying to have the flexibility to use both of them as slaves. I thought it might have to do with the power output difference between the camera's flash and the 285 monsters so I experimented a bit, and snapped some shots in portrait orientation using one of the 285s on the camera (firing at 1/16th power and pointed at 90degrees horizontally toward a fairly dark brown wall) with the slave across the room (about 20' from the camera) aimed at the subject. All of the shots showed the expected light from the slave. Then I removed the 285 from the camera and set the on camera flash to full manual power, and held the camera about a foot from the slave and snapped a couple of pictures. The results still seem like the camera didn't see the light from the slave. Any suggestions? Thanks

ziggy53

JohnRog wrote:

Hi,
I'll apologize in advance for the length of my post, i just wanted to give you as much info as possible up front... I have a question about some of the same equipment. I have a 7d and on the advice of one of the Strobist articles I picked up 2 of the Vivitar 285s and 2 of the Wein Peanut microslave optical triggers. These are my only external flash units (I wanted to force myself to learn to set things up without the TTL crutch). I wanted to be able to trigger them from the on camera flash (in manual mode to avoid triggering from preflash). The on camera flash will trigger the 285s, but I can't seem to get them synched properly. I see the Vivitars fire, but apparently the shutter has already closed. I've tried using slower shutter speeds but get the same results. If I mount one of the Vivitars to the camera's hotshoe, then everything works as it should, but I was trying to have the flexibility to use both of them as slaves. I thought it might have to do with the power output difference between the camera's flash and the 285 monsters so I experimented a bit, and snapped some shots in portrait orientation using one of the 285s on the camera (firing at 1/16th power and pointed at 90degrees horizontally toward a fairly dark brown wall) with the slave across the room (about 20' from the camera) aimed at the subject. All of the shots showed the expected light from the slave. Then I removed the 285 from the camera and set the on camera flash to full manual power, and held the camera about a foot from the slave and snapped a couple of pictures. The results still seem like the camera didn't see the light from the slave. Any suggestions? Thanks

JohnRog, welcome to the Digital Grin.

If you mean that you are using the built-in flash of a Canon 7D, I don't believe that you can turn off the pre-flash of that unit. It sounds like the Peanut slaves are responding to the pre-flash and firing before the main flash.

Try taking one of the 285HV flashes, making sure that it is an "HV" version (the version prior to the 285HV, the Vivitar 285 flash, has dangerous trigger voltages) and mount it directly onto the hotshoe of the 7D (without the Peanut installed).

Now see if the other 285HV with the Peanut installed is able to fire during the exposure. It should as that's what I do, except I generally use a different manual flash mounted onto the camera.

If it works, just purchase any inexpensive manual or "auto" flash that is voltage safe and use that on the camera to fire the slaved flashes.

JohnRog

Ok... mine are brand new hv's, and that's what I was trying to say I had tried in the other post...it did work, I was just hoping there was a way to get it to work with the on camera flash... so even in manual mode there is a preflash? Oh well... maybe I'll try one of the cheap Chinese eBay flashes to trigger the others. Any horror stories on those? Thanks for the help and the welcome.

ziggy53 wrote:

JohnRog, welcome to the Digital Grin.

If you mean that you are using the built-in flash of a Canon 7D, I don't believe that you can turn off the pre-flash of that unit. It sounds like the Peanut slaves are responding to the pre-flash and firing before the main flash.

Try taking one of the 285HV flashes, making sure that it is an "HV" version (the version prior to the 285HV, the Vivitar 285 flash, has dangerous trigger voltages) and mount it directly onto the hotshoe of the 7D (without the Peanut installed).

Now see if the other 285HV with the Peanut installed is able to fire during the exposure. It should as that's what I do, except I generally use a different manual flash mounted onto the camera.

If it works, just purchase any inexpensive manual or "auto" flash that is voltage safe and use that on the camera to fire the slaved flashes.

Art Scott

JohnRog wrote:

Ok.. Oh well... maybe I'll try one of the cheap Chinese eBay flashes to trigger the others. Any horror stories on those? Thanks for the help and the welcome.

I have been using the RD616 RF triggers for a quite a while now and never had a problem........the above link takes you to the ebay retailer I buy from also.......I received one unit that was DOA and they replaced without a prob.......

ziggy53

JohnRog wrote:

Ok... mine are brand new hv's, and that's what I was trying to say I had tried in the other post...it did work, I was just hoping there was a way to get it to work with the on camera flash... so even in manual mode there is a preflash? Oh well... maybe I'll try one of the cheap Chinese eBay flashes to trigger the others. Any horror stories on those? Thanks for the help and the welcome.

The quality of those very cheap Chinese flashes is always suspect.

I would rather recommend that you try a radio transmitter/slave setup. The high frequency RF602/RF-602 sets are getting good reviews:

http://cgi.ebay.com/RF602-RF-602-for-Canon-1D-5D-50D-20D-with-2-receivers_W0QQitemZ220506348077QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCamera_Camcorder_Remotes?hash=item335733da2d#ht_2813wt_685

time2smile

it does sound like your prefash is setting off the slaves. It drove me crazy for a while, until i figured it out. I dont know canon but nikon offers a settings that fires the prefash by itself, and than remembers that until you disable or the meter turns off. They call it the FV Lock. Canon should have something similar to that, than the flash will fire the optic slaves correctly.

good luck

JohnRog

update
Ok, so I finally got it to work with the 7d's built in flash... I originally had a sigma 530 super flash set up as a slave, so I had activated the wireless mode in the flash settings. It was a really nice unit, but when I realized that I could get 2 Vivitar 285 hv's and 2 peanut triggers for the same price, I decided to return the sigma. I never went back in to turn off wireless until the other day, and apparently there is preflash even in manual mode when wireless is active. Now that it's switched off, the optical slaves are working just fine with the onboard flash In manual mode... thanks to all for the help...

ziggy53

JohnRog wrote:

Ok, so I finally got it to work with the 7d's built in flash... I originally had a sigma 530 super flash set up as a slave, so I had activated the wireless mode in the flash settings. It was a really nice unit, but when I realized that I could get 2 Vivitar 285 hv's and 2 peanut triggers for the same price, I decided to return the sigma. I never went back in to turn off wireless until the other day, and apparently there is preflash even in manual mode when wireless is active. Now that it's switched off, the optical slaves are working just fine with the onboard flash In manual mode... thanks to all for the help...

It's very good to know that the Canon 7D has the capability to turn off the pre-flash in the on-board flash.