PDN regarding "Dad's with Camera"

Zanotti

http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/content_display/features/pdn-online/e3id4b973c6ccee64b49cf392379b2bf88e


It hurts a little, because it can be me.....



Took a couple shots on Saturday. Thought I would share:







I kind of miss being under the lights!


Z

johng

nice images.

kdog

Haha, the article even goes as far to say that the offending MWC (mom with camera) posts her images on Smugmug!

Your images are excellent.

-joel

Zanotti

Thanks guys! Its always great to shoot in good light.

Interesting debate.


Z

jmphotocraft

I have made the leap from GWC to part-time pro. I shoot my town's little league baseball, and I just did a soccer tournament. There is no debate, GWC/MWC's are a fact of life. Should we feel bad for blacksmiths or auto workers who have been replaced by machines? Is there anything we should do about them? No. Evolve or die. GWCs haven't killed my business yet, but I won't be surprised if the day comes when I will either have to step up my game and invest in on-site printing and CD-burning, or simply go back to being a Dad-WC.

I think the pros can take some comfort in the fact that people with DSLRs are the minority of camera owners, and among them only a minority have high quality gear, and/or know how to use it.

One thing I did at my soccer tournament to give myself an edge was to line up the team group shots with the sun at the player's backs and shoot with flash. This screwed all the parents with point-n-shoots and cell phones who were clamoring behind me to steal the team shot.

Mitchell

Excellent photos! Nice and sharp with good crops and colors.

You're no GWC.

Quite frankly, I'm tired of this debate. The old paradigm of the sports photographer taking photos of kids and selling them has changed. The people who gripe about this just have their head in the sand. Go to Costco and look at the quality gear people can get for under $1000. Parents like to take photos of their kids, and now we have the gear to get decent photos from the sidelines that were not possible years ago.

Pros need to adapt (as the article mentions) or get out of the business. The crybabies that whine that mom shouldn't be allowed to take photos during games need a reality check.

David Evertsen

Those are some great photos everything looks great, would love to shoot during the day every once in a while.

The debate with Parents and Cameras is getting quite old for me as well. I shoot the majority of my stuff for one HS and Dance Studio and have grown at this over the years. There has been one thing that was not mentioned in the article, this discussion or even the discussion about the article on the Sports Shooter Message Board. The parents have all the cameras and lug them around and shoot there kids and have fun, but after a while at my school where I shoot 95% at night or indoors the parents got tired of having to get the shot and not being able to watch or enjoy their kids playing. I had a ton of Parents tell me last year they where so happy when I was there so they knew they would have great shots and could enjoy their kids playing the game. If there is a market for something there is usually someone there to fill it.

johng

David Evertsen wrote:

I shoot the majority of my stuff for one HS and Dance Studio and have grown at this over the years. I had a ton of Parents tell me last year they where so happy when I was there so they knew they would have great shots and could enjoy their kids playing the game. If there is a market for something there is usually someone there to fill it.

First let me say I agree - pros need to deal with the fact parents have better and better equipment. But since you mentioned these facts, David, let me ask some questions if I may?

1. You shoot mostly 1 school and 1 studio - do you have a student in each?
2. If you add up the time you spend at all events photographing and the time to travel and time to edit, etc. and then use your sales data to calculate an hourly wage, are you comfortable that wage could support you?

There in lies a big difference between a parent making money on the side vs. a pro who is balancing income vs. time spent. It takes a lot of revenue for a pro to show up at every game for a team and for every sport. For example, let's say you photograph 6 basketball games - on-site & travel for 3 hours each. Add in 1 hour of processing time for each - 24 hours. If you wanted to make a $10 per hour salary - you need to sell at least $240 worth of product. Problem is - $10 an hour isn't that great - not when you can't count on 40 hour weeks. So, if you're a parent with this as a side income and you're there anyway then it's no big deal. But if you're a pro needing this income, shooting all 6 games and waiting for parents to get tired of taking their own photos to make that $240 just isn't worth it.

Now - I just pulled all these numbers out of thin air. But you get the idea. There's a big difference between a business model that allows you to bring in a little extra $$ when you're not paying a salary vs. spending your limited time in a profitable venture that earns enough money to put food on the table and pay the mortgage.

To that end, from a purely business standpoint I think it's now a market that is very difficult to get good payback for the time and equipment $$$ investment.

I'm not crying - it's a side job for me too. In the last 2 years though I've cut way back. My revenue has gone down by about 35% but by re-evaluating what and how I shoot I've cut my time commitment down by about 75% because I no longer shoot 6 games of a team hoping for that $240 in sales. Just my opinion.

jmphotocraft

I think the answer is on-site printing or on-site previewing and order taking.

I go to a motorcycle track day once a year (as a rider) and there is a pro photographer there with 4 computers running slideshows which people can also use to browse images and place orders. There is always a feeding-frenzy around these machines.

mercphoto

jmphotocraft wrote:

I think the answer is on-site printing or on-site previewing and order taking.

I go to a motorcycle track day once a year (as a rider) and there is a pro photographer there with 4 computers running slideshows which people can also use to browse images and place orders. There is always a feeding-frenzy around these machines.

That works very well in a racing environment because there is typically a lot of down-time for the riders, and they have nothing better to do than look at your photos. That's when you get the impulse buy, when the adrenaline is still high and they have that ability to click "buy" right then. The urge to buy just isn't as strong Monday morning while browsing the photographer's website.

That doesn't work so well at league football/baseball/what-have-you. The game is over and people want to leave right then and there. They don't want to wait in line for a photo kiosk. (then again, if we are talking about a weekend tournament, then you have that down-time thing again, and the kiosk idea works).

mercphoto

Zanotti wrote:

http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/content_display/features/pdn-online/e3id4b973c6ccee64b49cf392379b2bf88e


It hurts a little, because it can be me.....

First off those are top-notch images that would warrant top-dollar if you were to sell them. Very nice.

Secondly the whole GWC thing, its a thorny issue all around. People who say that if the parents tried to make a living at the rates they charge (if any) they would find they could not, that's absolutely correct. If they tried to turn that hobby into a job they would fail to pay the bills. But they're not trying to pay the bills, they're simply having fun, taking pictures, and sharing them. This does hurt the working pro, no doubt about it. But as sad as that is, the working pro doesn't have a "right" to make a living and a profit doing sports photography. He/she might not like the fact the business model is eroding, but seriously, its just life. The photographer doesn't have a right to say these people can't do as they wish with their photos simply so they can pay the mortgage. I mean, is it any different than hiring my neighbor's boy at half the going rate to mow my lawn rather than hire a professional landscaping business? Or what if I repair my neighbor's sink faucet rather than employ a plumber?

austinado16

Any of you following my big gymnastics thread know that as of this past May, I made the decision to spend up and become a DWC.

Why? A few reasons:
1) I'm the kind of person who enjoys doing everything myself. From automotive repair to home construction and everything in between. I'd rather do it, than pay someone else. I wouldn't call myself a gadget junkie, or gear junkie, but being pretty mechanically minded, and a fast learn-by-doing kinda guy, I figured I could make this work.

2) After pricing the local pro at previos gymnastics meets, and buying a couple of photos at $20ea for a 5x7........1 for us, 1 for my mom, 1 for my wife's parents, etc. I was pretty sure that it wouldn't take long to pay off a camera purchase. Especially considering I want a few dozen nice shots per meet, not just one.

3) I considered the purchase an investment in saving some fantastic family memories, year round, not just during the short gymnastic season.

So with all that in mind, I came here, learned alot, and made a purchase.

I certainly think pulling this off as a career would be tough, even in "normal" economic times.

I miss the days of just sitting and watching, and enjoying the meet from the bleachers. That definately changes when you're analyzing the action through a rectangle in the back of a camera.

It's been the right choice for us, and we're enjoying the shots we're getting.

To the OP: Super nice shots! I dream of the day I can shoot action outdoors!

tjk60

mercphoto wrote:

First off those are top-notch images that would warrant top-dollar if you were to sell them. Very nice.

Secondly the whole GWC thing, its a thorny issue all around. People who say that if the parents tried to make a living at the rates they charge (if any) they would find they could not, that's absolutely correct. If they tried to turn that hobby into a job they would fail to pay the bills. But they're not trying to pay the bills, they're simply having fun, taking pictures, and sharing them. This does hurt the working pro, no doubt about it. But as sad as that is, the working pro doesn't have a "right" to make a living and a profit doing sports photography. He/she might not like the fact the business model is eroding, but seriously, its just life. The photographer doesn't have a right to say these people can't do as they wish with their photos simply so they can pay the mortgage. I mean, is it any different than hiring my neighbor's boy at half the going rate to mow my lawn rather than hire a professional landscaping business? Or what if I repair my neighbor's sink faucet rather than employ a plumber?

Agreed. I started as DWC, made some money, and am now getting undercut by DWC. Can't get upset, either I change how/what I shoot, or go into full hobby mode...

mercphoto

tjk60 wrote:

Agreed. I started as DWC, made some money, and am now getting undercut by DWC. Can't get upset, either I change how/what I shoot, or go into full hobby mode...

I see you're a Sports Shooter member. I used to be. One thing that would get my dander up is to see someone complain about under-cutters, and then in another thread ask where to get the best mail-order price on a lens (instead of supporting the local store), or where to get free music for their DVD's (if free photos are bad, isn't free music bad too?).

David Evertsen

johng wrote:

First let me say I agree - pros need to deal with the fact parents have better and better equipment. But since you mentioned these facts, David, let me ask some questions if I may?

1. You shoot mostly 1 school and 1 studio - do you have a student in each?
2. If you add up the time you spend at all events photographing and the time to travel and time to edit, etc. and then use your sales data to calculate an hourly wage, are you comfortable that wage could support you?

John,

I have two girls that dance at the studio and at competitions, I wanted to get great pictures of them and slowly got into photography to do this. I could not get better without practice and asked the local HS AD if I could shoot Football and started shooting JV/Freshman football games. I built a relationship over the past 3 years and now can shoot anything I want at the school sports-wise. I have no kids at the school, I am not zoned for it but honestly I picked the school because 95% of my friends kids go there.

I have made some money but not enough to ever pay for the investment of time I have given it however, I was horrible 3 years ago and the investment in myself and photography skills was worth it. Along the way I have picked up another HS that I shoot their Dance Magnet recitals and some local Dance groups I shoot from time to time. The money I make selling Dance Photos is much more than the HS sports I shoot and I use it to pay for some of the Dance fees and such.

I am not even close to supporting my family with the money I make doing this, I am happy I have found something that I can do that can raise some extra cash for dance and my kids are glad I don't sit at Dance Competitions complaining about when can we go home.


Standing on the sidelines and sitting in the back of a Theatre as much as I have lately has taught me to appreciate how hard this is and how hard you have to work at it. I tip my hat to those that do make a living off it.

johng

Sounds great David. My only point in all that was what works for us making extra $$$ on the side doesn't necessarily make a good business model - even if the business is part time. Which is why I personally changed my approach so I'm no longer making $1.75 an hour for my shooting

David Evertsen

johng wrote:

My only point in all that was what works for us making extra $$$ on the side doesn't necessarily make a good business model - even if the business is part time. Which is why I personally changed my approach so I'm no longer making $1.75 an hour for my shooting

I agree, that is something that is starting cross my mind more and more.

ian408

Some good discussion on the topic. It's a very tough business to be in.

Dano

Dads or Moms giving away stuff doesn't really bother me, but the "Wow I got published and received absolutely nothing but the opportunity to have a company take advantage of me" threads get to me.

jmphotocraft

mercphoto wrote:

That doesn't work so well at league football/baseball/what-have-you. The game is over and people want to leave right then and there. They don't want to wait in line for a photo kiosk. (then again, if we are talking about a weekend tournament, then you have that down-time thing again, and the kiosk idea works).

When talking about shooting one game, you are absolutely right. However I shot an entire town little league for two months. I think I could have made a small killing with a kiosk at the fields. On the evenings I was shooting, other teams I had already shot would also be playing, so I could have had something to show them.

Hmmm... a few netbooks under my ez-up tent and a mobile broadband connection to Smugmug.... hmmm....