Why is the Base price of prints so high?

wildviper

I am researching Zenfolio and Smugmug Pro to see where I would like my pictures to go. Currently I am at Smugmug (basic level), but not sure if I will renew here (especially hearing about the coupons and package requests going on for so long).

One thing I noticed was that the price in Zenfolio for an 8x10 Metal print is coming in at $3 with a $0.39 profit for me. This is before I up the price at all.

The same here at Smugmug is coming in at $3.30 and no profit for me.

Am I missing something here? In my "eyes", Bay Photo and Mpix qualities are very very similar if not the same. So what gives?

Is it cause I only have a Basic account and if I went Pro, I would share in some profits?

denisegoldberg

If you switch to Pro, you set your own prices so you dictate your profits. Per the info page: "Set your prices and make 85% of the markup."

See http://www.smugmug.com/photos/professional-photo-hosting-sell-photos/.

--- Denise

wildviper

denisegoldberg wrote:

If you switch to Pro, you set your own prices so you dictate your profits. Per the info page: "Set your prices and make 85% of the markup."

See http://www.smugmug.com/photos/professional-photo-hosting-sell-photos/.

--- Denise

Thanx. I understood that, but what is confusing me is...is my markup over and above the base price of $3.30?

That would make the prints a lot more expensive and lot less in my pocket(even after paying an extra $50 per year and 3% more)

Andy

wildviper wrote:

In my "eyes",

Our tests showed otherwise, and we're thrilled with Bay - it's really amazing: http://www.smugmug.com/photos/pro-print-labs-compared/

Your markup is above and beyond the prices in our catalog.

If a print costs $1, you sell it for $11, there's $10 in profit to split between you and us. You get 85% and we 15%.

wildviper

Ok. fair enough. So the base price itself is about 30% more with no profit going to the pro.

I wouldn't go for that. Then the alternative is to be able to choose my own lab.

Can I do custom price lists for my own custom lab? So, rather than Bay photo getting the prints, they are sent to an alternate lab?

Tim Kamppinen

Have I misunderstood you, or are you seriously talking about selling metallic 8x10's for ~$3.00? That's ridiculous. You might as well save yourself the hassle and just let people buy them at cost. If you want to run a business and make money, charge enough to make a profit. You're selling images, not the paper they're printed on.

And what do you keep talking about, "no profit going to the pro"? The profit is whatever you want it to be when you set your selling price for the prints.

Ann McRae

wildviper wrote:

Can I do custom price lists for my own custom lab? So, rather than Bay photo getting the prints, they are sent to an alternate lab?

If you are using SmugMug's shopping cart, then you are using SmugMug's labs - the carts ties directly to the lab you set (EZPrints or Bay Photo). You are also using SmugMug's fantastic support system that protects you and your customers with a no quibble print guarantee.

And, as mentioned, folks are not paying you for the paper and ink, but rather for the time, energy and talent it requires to make a photo worthy of printing!

ann

wildviper

Well thanx for your concern about running my business and not keeping the price so low.

I am thinking of myself, first and foremost. If Smugmug is charging a base price that is 30% higher than a competitor, then, Smugmug's service and quality should be at least 30% better than the competitor.

It doesn't matter if I am charging $10 or $100 for the print, as a business person, I have to contain MY costs as much as I can whilst maintaining quality.

I highly doubt Bay Photo, EZ Prints are 30% better than Mpix. As for the service guarantee, if I am keeping 30% "extra" profit due to the lower base cost, I can certainly take on the "risk" of some prints being re-printed if need be on my dime.

What I mean by "no profit to the pros" is this: With Zenfolio pricing, the actual 8x10 metal print costs ME, about $2.55 ($3.00 base price - $0.45 profit back to me). Whereas with Smugmug, the same is costing ME $3.30..and no profit included.

In both cases, I can raise my prices to $10 a print say...I just would keep more at Zenfolio it seems. I was hoping that Smugmug would have a "lower" base pricing for "Pros membership".

And let's not forget, Smugmug's service level is certainly not where it was. So, I am thinking to myself...why should I pay 30% more and pay $50 per year more? I don't mind paying it...if I am getting something in return for it that I value.

By the way, the Bay Photo Metal print's base price is even higher! Around $4 or so.

TxTortoise

sort the apples first...

MPIX Cost
EZ Prints Cost
Bay Photo Cost

Figure your selling price and see what the revenue difference is, it's not profit at this point. ;-) Forget the Zenfolio embedded "profit" of .30, that just confusing'.

If you have to charge more for one or the other to get the 'profit' you want, then I agree the incremental print cost is a factor, particuarly at the low purchase price levels, e.g., 4x6 @ $4 vs $8.

That said, if you want to self-fulfill go for it. But you're buying an integrated sales solution and ongoing enhancements when you create a pro account and that's what your 15% of sales is buying. Heck just the ability to have a choice of two labs with their respective pricing options adds value to this e-commerce solution, or three if you include the ability to turn-off color correction by hand at Bay.

That said, SmugMug support and customer service has and continues to be top tier so I'm not sure where this is coming from "Smugmug's service level is certainly not where it was."

(And yeah, I want package pricing as much as the next guys and don't understand why it's taken so long, but that's a red herring and I manage software development projects to pay the bills.)

Bottomline, the prices are what they are, so perform due dlligence, figure out what works for you and move on....hopefully with SmugMug. ;-)

Cheers...

Cygnus Studios

wildviper wrote:

I highly doubt Bay Photo, EZ Prints are 30% better than Mpix.

Have you personally done a test? I was using Bay before Smugmug made the switch, and would put their consistency far above Mpix.

When it is the clients money and my reputation on the line, I don't want inconsistent results.

Order the same image 10 times from each and see who is best. Don't take my word or Smugmug, do the test and find out for yourself.

Tim Kamppinen

The point is, if you would charge a decent price for your prints, a difference of less than a dollar in base price is next to meaningless. Just charge an extra dollar for your prints if you want to make the same profit. It seems strange that you're so concerned about your profits, yet unwilling to sell your photos at a price that will actually make you any money. You need to see the big picture.

wildviper

Wow...ok..let me make this as clear as I can. Hopefully, all the business people here will perhaps see my point.

I am selling lollipops. I have two suppliers I can buy from and perhaps one of them is a touch better (Supplier . However, Supplier B is charging me 30% more.

It really doesn't make any difference if I can sell the pops at $1 or $100. My cost is going up by 30% if I choose Supplier B and I am not sure if I am getting the same value back.

If I increase my price to cover that 30%, I risk alienating my clients. Let's not kid ourselves...I am not at a level of Joe Mcnally or others who can "demand" their price.

30% to you may sound little since we are talking about just one print. An order of $1,000 in prints, means $300 more I have to tag on. An order of $100, means $30 more I have to add on.

If I think clients are not going to notice, I am shooting myself in the foot. Until I get the status of Joe McNally(which I doubt) or Annie...I have to watch out and ensure I am not pricing myself out.

The argument that my "work" is art and so and so..while to me, that maybe true...my thoughts do not matter. It is the client and the marketplace..again, at least until I achieve a status of some sort.

And btw, I have not said anywhere how much I am going to charge for my prints..or how much mark-up I am going to add. So, why is everyone ganging up on that issue and just telling me to NOT sell so low!

Yes, I do have to run the Bay Photo and Mpix test to see if I can justify paying 30% more.

The whole reason I opened this thread was because I thought that Smugmug opens up a different price list if I was a "pro". Obviously that is not the case and which is PERFECTLY fine. I wouldn't mind paying the extra 30%..if I saw the quality and value difference by at least 20-30%.

Cygnus Studios

wildviper wrote:

I am selling lollipops. I have two suppliers I can buy from and perhaps one of them is a touch better (Supplier . However, Supplier B is charging me 30% more.

I am a business person. I just happen to make my living behind the camera, so I do understand the basic logic behind your thought process.

As a business person, you first have to decide if you want the best products or acceptable products. There is nothing wrong with either one, it is simply a matter of choice.

The choice of profit levels is also dictated by that choice. You are determined to believe that you cannot charge more, so there is no point arguing.

I learned very early on that I do not sell paper and ink. Most of my commercial clients get the prints for free. I charge to get the image that they have in their head. On the rare occasion that someone questions the price of the print, I offer the digital file at 15 times the price. That puts the print price into perspective pretty fast.

I also sit down with my clients prior to taking the images to educate them on the differences between true pro labs and other printers. I have prints from high end to low end. Not 1 single client has chosen anyone else once they have seen the quality in hand.

Keep in mind that part of your job as the pro, is to educate your clients. Demonstrate to them why you use certain products vs others. Show them the value of your work. The average person is quite happy with Walmart prints until they see the difference.

Personally I want to give what I believe is the best for my clients. I went through dozens of pro labs across the country before settling on Bay Photo. I have found them not only among the best, but they are the most consistent. That is darn important. On a scale of 1 to 10, they are always an 8.5

Sure anyone can hit a ten once in a while, but it is when they miss and hit a 5 is when I get scared. Some were so far around the map I wondered who was watching the prints as they came out. When you open a box and have to wonder what one eyed, color blind, ex Walmart greeter is running the printer it is time to find the best and most consistent.

SamirD

Your question really comes down to, "is it worth it?" I've been with SM so long, I remember when Bay Photo wasn't an option.

So all of my prints came through EZ Prints. Now cameras have stepped up a notch in the last 5 years, and I haven't upgraded. So I switched over all my galleries to Bay Photo. And guess what? Sales have increased. I didn't have to invest a single penny in better equipment or time in post, but my images now turn out better than the average Joe with a 50D at walmart. That's the value you bring to your customers, and that's what SM can help you bring.

carmel6942

Not sure but I think you need to recheck your math, I think that .30 on 3.00 is only a 10% difference. That might help make your mind up faster. I by no means sell lots of prints and I don't really post alot of pictures but the few times I have ever had any problems I have always had help very quickly and the problem is always fixed. To me that is worth every bit of the 10% difference.

wildviper

carmel6942 wrote:

Not sure but I think you need to recheck your math, I think that .30 on 3.00 is only a 10% difference. That might help make your mind up faster. I by no means sell lots of prints and I don't really post alot of pictures but the few times I have ever had any problems I have always had help very quickly and the problem is always fixed. To me that is worth every bit of the 10% difference.

It isn't just 10%. If it was, i wouldn't care.

The base price at Mpix through Zenfolio for an 8x10 Metallic is $2.55. (the $3 price includes $0.45 profit to the photographer). The base price at "EZ Print" here is $3.30 for the same size and metallic.

3.30/2.55 = 29.41% higher.

Mind you, Bay Photo's base price is somewhere around $4 which is a 57% higher cost.

I will test out Bay Photo myself and see. I highly doubt, I can see a 50% increase in quality from Bayphoto (EDIT: I put Mpix...meant Bayphoto).

Btw, Mpix is no slouch from what I read across the net and the prints I have gotten.

Oscarc

wildviper wrote:

It isn't just 10%. If it was, i wouldn't care.

The base price at Mpix through Zenfolio for an 8x10 Metallic is $2.55. (the $3 price includes $0.45 profit to the photographer). The base price at "EZ Print" here is $3.30 for the same size and metallic.

3.30/2.55 = 29.41% higher.

Mind you, Bay Photo's base price is somewhere around $4 which is a 57% higher cost.

While that's true, that's misleading. The most important metric when selliing goods is profit.

If you charge $5 for an 8x10, you got $2.45 profit from Zenfolio and $1.70 from Smugmug, making Zenfolio 44% more profitable. However, if you charge $30 for an 8x10, you get $27.45 from Zenfolio and $26.70 from SmugMug, making Zenfolio only 3% more profitable. That's why the amount you charge is very relevent to this discussion. Is SmugMug worth an additional 3%?

Tim Kamppinen

Oscarc wrote:

While that's true, that's misleading. The most important metric when selliing goods is profit.

If you charge $5 for an 8x10, you got $2.45 profit from Zenfolio and $1.70 from Smugmug, making Zenfolio 44% more profitable. However, if you charge $30 for an 8x10, you get $27.45 from Zenfolio and $26.70 from SmugMug, making Zenfolio only 3% more profitable. That's why the amount you charge is very relevent to this discussion. Is SmugMug worth an additional 3%?

Exactly.

termina3

Oscarc wrote:

While that's true, that's misleading. The most important metric when selliing goods is profit.

If you charge $5 for an 8x10, you got $2.45 profit from Zenfolio and $1.70 from Smugmug, making Zenfolio 44% more profitable. However, if you charge $30 for an 8x10, you get $27.45 from Zenfolio and $26.70 from SmugMug, making Zenfolio only 3% more profitable. That's why the amount you charge is very relevent to this discussion. Is SmugMug worth an additional 3%?

I agree--but I expect the OP will point out that the actual profit from SmugMug in this case that goes to the photographer is $22.27 because of the 85/15 split.

Still, your point holds true. The increased print cost shrinks when put next to the total revenue (or even total profit).

BTW, I suspect Joe McNally is charging more than $30 per 8x10, whether it's through the actual print sale or higher hourly fees.

SamirD

termina3 wrote:

...because of the 85/15 split.

On a related note, is this shown on the "profit" column in the pricing screen? I've always thought I was getting less than what I put in on that screen, and this may make sense. Can anyone else verify that the profit column is before or after the 15%?

jh4wvu

SamirD wrote:

On a related note, is this shown on the "profit" column in the pricing screen? I've always thought I was getting less than what I put in on that screen, and this may make sense. Can anyone else verify that the profit column is before or after the 15%?

The amount in the profit column does in fact take into account the 15%. I just looked.

Chris

SamirD

jh4wvu wrote:

The amount in the profit column does in fact take into account the 15%. I just looked.

Chris

Thank you! I just double-checked it too. I even checked sales from the past, and everything looked ok. I didn't think I was looking at it right. If there was anything wrong in the accounting, I'm sure a bunch of pros would have spoken up by now.

wildviper

Oscarc wrote:

While that's true, that's misleading. The most important metric when selliing goods is profit.

I can't believe this thread is going this way, but, here goes. Profit has two components: Sale Price and Actual Cost. While Sale Price is important (and I never EVER said that was not), I am not focusing on that here since I am comparing two "suppliers" of services to me. I am deciding which one I want to do business with.

Since most of the services "I" need are offered by both(or I can live with/without), the factor that is different is the cost of the product to ME. As I said earlier, the purpose of my thread was to find out if there was a "secret" pricing(that was lower) for us photographers once we go "Pro" with SmugMug.

The answer to that is a no. The question for me then is, "Is SmugMug/Bay Photo worth the extra cost to me over Zenfolio/Mpix?"

That answer, I don't know yet. I am going to test out Bay Photo like I said. Maybe it is and maybe I will be their fan for life. At this point, I have to test them. I am preparing prints to send to them and send to Mpix.

If you charge $5 for an 8x10, you got $2.45 profit from Zenfolio and $1.70 from Smugmug, making Zenfolio 44% more profitable. However, if you charge $30 for an 8x10, you get $27.45 from Zenfolio and $26.70 from SmugMug, making Zenfolio only 3% more profitable. That's why the amount you charge is very relevent to this discussion. Is SmugMug worth an additional 3%?

I understand your point. However, I am sorry, but as I stated above, my objective is to choose a supplier of services. What I price my prints for retail is irrelevant to that discussion. Based on your argument above, I can even charge $100 and the % difference falls even further. However, as I stated above, I do not have the STATUS to be able to command much higher print costs, just yet. Hopefully in future.

And besides, as stated, I am evaluating suppliers..not what I can get away with charging my clients.

SamirD

I can understand where you are coming from by looking at them as suppliers. But the problem is that the products are of different quality.

I was in the radiator and ac condensor distribution business a few years ago. I had many suppliers I could buy from, but there were consequences to the quality of the products. If I went with suppliers whose products were too cheap, I ran into the problem of possibly losing customers. I went with suppliers that were too expensive, then I couldn't make money the parts. And my sales pricing and customer were direct factors in the supplier choice. If I could get more money, I'll provide a higher quality product. If the customer didn't care about quality and just wanted price, I had that product too.

The hard part with photography is that choosing a supplier isn't as easy as the example above. There are many, many more factors when considering the pricing to your customer. Quality is one of the largest influences on your customer in photography. A higher quality image will sell more easily, period. There's different ways to get this higher quality--better technique, better equipment, better print.

I think SM has placed themselves at the top when it comes to quality. I know they've done testing, and are more particular than my customers or even myself. And the pricing is pretty close to other competitors. I've even been able to set my prices to compete with local Wolf Camera outfits and still make a bit. And with superior quality and service. I think SM's quality has influenced my buyers for sure, even though it is a marginally more expensive product.