Dealing with a difficult client
Nensley
Registered Users Posts: 65 Big grins
Hi everyone. I am in need of advice on dealing with a difficult client. I will try and give the quick story.
I shot photos for a friend of a friend on Oct 18th. She had three daughters that I shot. I did not charge her a session fee. She had requested a red barn, which I found, but then she complained that there weren't enough leaves. She also said she didn't plan to purchase pictures; she just wanted some to display on facebook. :huh I told her that would not be possible. She also brought her own Canon Rebel and took pictures along with me. I was so taken aback that I didn't say anything. I really don't think that she thought I knew what I was doing. I am just telling you this to show you her character.
I had the pictures edited and ready for viewing in an online gallery the next day. She was thrilled with them! Two days later she ordered a large package. I received the prints and they were gorgeous!! I got the prints to her on Oct 25th. She called me on Oct 26th and said that in one picture she could see the "pixels" on her youngest daughter's face. I don't know what she is talking about because it was only an 8x10 print and it looked great. Also she said in one print, the same daughter's lips looked "fucshia". I saw the prints and the lips looked pink but not unnatural. I reminded her that it was 35 degrees when we made the pics and the girls got cold towards the end so their noses, cheeks, and lips looked a bit pink. Her other complaint was that the background looked blurry. I explained bokeh to her and she still wasn't satisfied. So those are her complaints. She told me she would "never have purchased these if she had known what they were going to look like" and she "would never display these in her home". I told her that I saw the prints and I would never present a product to a client that I wasn't happy with. She also said that I needed to "find a new lab because obviously the lab is terrible". I ordered through White House Custom Color and I have my monitor calibrated with that lab. I explained to her that I could not possibly be responsible for every client's monitor calibration.
Here is what I offered: I offered to replace the one where she could see what she called "pixels" with another pose. I also offered to order the one with the fuschia lips in a matte to see if she liked that better. I told her I would also decrease the red and magenta saturation, but that would cause the cheeks to look less natural too. All of this was offered at my cost.
She called me later that day (Monday) and said she had spoken to another photographer who suggested that she asked me to release the copyright and provide a CD so that photographer could edit the pics and have them printed at his lab. At that point, I just about lost it. I told her I absolutely would not release the photos and that I would do exactly what I had offered to do.
Last night her husband sent me a text that said he wanted to meet with me and show me their pc so that I could see the problems. I told him that I had already spoken to his wife and offered to have the pics reprinted and that, again, I could not be responsible for the color calibration of his computer. I have their canvas that they ordered, and I am planning to meet them to give that to them.
I'm sorry this has gotten so very long, but I wanted to make sure I told everything that has taken place. I am beyond frustrated with these people. They signed a contract, and in that contract, it is clearly stated that there are no returns or refunds. I am trying my best to be professional about all of this. I am very very very new, and this is all a learning process. I am wondering if there is anything I should/could do differently. I am also wondering what to do if she still isn't happy with the reprints because, at this point, I don't expect her to ever be happy. Also should I consider adding a clause in my contract regarding color calibration?
I would really appreciate your advice and assistance.
I shot photos for a friend of a friend on Oct 18th. She had three daughters that I shot. I did not charge her a session fee. She had requested a red barn, which I found, but then she complained that there weren't enough leaves. She also said she didn't plan to purchase pictures; she just wanted some to display on facebook. :huh I told her that would not be possible. She also brought her own Canon Rebel and took pictures along with me. I was so taken aback that I didn't say anything. I really don't think that she thought I knew what I was doing. I am just telling you this to show you her character.
I had the pictures edited and ready for viewing in an online gallery the next day. She was thrilled with them! Two days later she ordered a large package. I received the prints and they were gorgeous!! I got the prints to her on Oct 25th. She called me on Oct 26th and said that in one picture she could see the "pixels" on her youngest daughter's face. I don't know what she is talking about because it was only an 8x10 print and it looked great. Also she said in one print, the same daughter's lips looked "fucshia". I saw the prints and the lips looked pink but not unnatural. I reminded her that it was 35 degrees when we made the pics and the girls got cold towards the end so their noses, cheeks, and lips looked a bit pink. Her other complaint was that the background looked blurry. I explained bokeh to her and she still wasn't satisfied. So those are her complaints. She told me she would "never have purchased these if she had known what they were going to look like" and she "would never display these in her home". I told her that I saw the prints and I would never present a product to a client that I wasn't happy with. She also said that I needed to "find a new lab because obviously the lab is terrible". I ordered through White House Custom Color and I have my monitor calibrated with that lab. I explained to her that I could not possibly be responsible for every client's monitor calibration.
Here is what I offered: I offered to replace the one where she could see what she called "pixels" with another pose. I also offered to order the one with the fuschia lips in a matte to see if she liked that better. I told her I would also decrease the red and magenta saturation, but that would cause the cheeks to look less natural too. All of this was offered at my cost.
She called me later that day (Monday) and said she had spoken to another photographer who suggested that she asked me to release the copyright and provide a CD so that photographer could edit the pics and have them printed at his lab. At that point, I just about lost it. I told her I absolutely would not release the photos and that I would do exactly what I had offered to do.
Last night her husband sent me a text that said he wanted to meet with me and show me their pc so that I could see the problems. I told him that I had already spoken to his wife and offered to have the pics reprinted and that, again, I could not be responsible for the color calibration of his computer. I have their canvas that they ordered, and I am planning to meet them to give that to them.
I'm sorry this has gotten so very long, but I wanted to make sure I told everything that has taken place. I am beyond frustrated with these people. They signed a contract, and in that contract, it is clearly stated that there are no returns or refunds. I am trying my best to be professional about all of this. I am very very very new, and this is all a learning process. I am wondering if there is anything I should/could do differently. I am also wondering what to do if she still isn't happy with the reprints because, at this point, I don't expect her to ever be happy. Also should I consider adding a clause in my contract regarding color calibration?
I would really appreciate your advice and assistance.
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With respect to what to have learned from this:
1. Don't start working for someone without understanding what they want from the shoot (digital images for facebook in this case).
2. Don't work without charging a fee - you cannot reply on print sales to pay the bills.
3. Quit shooting when the mom pulls out her camera.
Perhaps you could share a link to the proofs so that we can have a look.
ann
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Here is the link http://www.capture-nakiaensleyphotography.com/Other/Friends/10012020_RVgad
Number 25 is the one with the "fuschia" lips. Number 33 is the one that she can "see the pixels in"
The last two are the ones I edited by decreasing the saturation of the red and magentas.
Thanks for your response. I had spoken to her about what she wanted from the shoot, and she didn't mention a word about sharing on fb until the actual shoot. She had specifically told me she wanted fall shots and that she wanted a canvas to display. I have definitely learned my lesson about working for free. And I will take your advice on not shooting when mom pulls out her camera.
I am tempted to refund her money, but my contract specifically states there are no refunds. Should I still do it? She hasn't mentioned problems with all of the prints so I think she might be happy with most of them.
You should have charged a session fee, she's really taking you for granted. Your work is good enough for that. If you guys keep going back and forth and iterate on prints this can turn into a nightmare. The daughters have freckles... but there is some noise in some of the photos you shot (I can see it in #9, 24, 25, for instance). Maybe that's the pixelation she's referring to?
In my opinion, release the files of the photos she had printed - but charge her for them - and let her run with it and just count this session as a learning experience. Don't refund - it would signal to the client that you admit that you artistically did something wrong, and you should never do that. And next a client brings a camera, stop taking photographs when they start, it's a violation of your own artistry, I've never heard of that ever happening. She clearly has her own ideas.
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Welcome to dealing with clients, the good, the bad, and the ugly. First it's good to vent and this is as good a place as any. Now you have a choice, go all defensive, pull out the contract and fight or use this as a challenge! Find a way to make this client happy. While this may not always be possible, you should always try.
That said I looked at your web site and I believe your referring to the Pierce family.
I think you have some nice captures but I see some issues. I do see some inconsistencies in white balance and skin tones. It also looks like a few shots that really needed some fill flash but none was used. On one shot I can see some noise. I am wondering if your client is confusing pixilation with noise.
I wish I could see the prints because that I think is the real issue.
As a mental exercise I would recommend you try to take a step back from your creative photographer artist self and fully engage your sales business self. (Easy for me to say)
Have someone, preferably another photographer who has more experience than yourself to take a look at your images, and provide an honest evaluation
Unless you feel threatened in any way I would meet with the husband, you still have a canvas to deliver, so trying to avoid a meeting would just aggravate the client further, and your going to see them anyway.
Try and get specifics about the images they don't like. You need to do this with the prints, and or your calibrated monitor.Using their computer is iffy at best.
I would listen to them and try to not say too much. Listen, find out what they want. Try to see things from their side and determine if what they are saying is real. Make sure there isn't any hidden agendas.
Go home and see if it's possible to reprocess any images to their liking.
Now comes the good part.................if it's just a processing issue there are many here who I am sure will be willing to help you out of a jam.
I don't claim to be great at people processing, but if you have one or two images you would like me to look at please send it.
Oh.................I really really hope you shot in RAW!
Sam
EDIT! I was looking at the wrong set of images...............I think this set is much better than to one I looked at. You have some nice images and on first glance I don't see any thing terrible. A few images I would think are gems with any parent being pleased.
Even if they are unreasonable I would make the effort to separate the real from the imagined. Again make sure there isn't a hidden agenda like buyers remorse and simply wanting there money back! That I wouldn't do.
OK, I am now going back to my cave.
Sam
Thanks for responding. I have no idea what to charge for the files...
Ok, let me see if I can comment on some of your comments.
It is actually the gallery labeled "friends". I linked in here in a pp.
I am still learning all about white balance, processing, fill flash, etc. And I am very very very clear about that with people before I take their pics. These people know I am brand new. And my fees reflect that. I am charging much much less than other area photographers while I build my portfolio.
I have had several other photographers take a look and I have received their feedback. I am just looking for more from people who don't actually know me.
I have no intention of meeting with her husband without my husband. I don't even know him. This whole thing just screams intimidation to me. I am getting a very weird vibe about it.
I already know all their specifics complaints, and I have done more processing to try my best to make them happy. I think there is a hidden agenda--She wants to take advantage of me and see how much she can get. I am feeling very threatened, but I want to handle this professionally and use it as a learning experience. So far, I have totally separated the art from the business, but that is becoming increasingly difficult as they come up with more and more unreasonable requests.
Thank you for responding.
Just saw your edit. Thank you.
Charge enough that they understand photography isn't free, isn't an hourly service, and is an art. Charge enough so that it makes them think twice about trying to do it on their own. Charge enough so that you can cut your losses from this project... but that's just the way I think. I'm very much a business-driven person and I'm extremely warm to my clients, but if I spot a problem that I know has a hidden agenda and isn't just because of my own artistry, I'm more likely to let it go than keep trying to fix it.
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Again I am just offering some thoughts. Your the one there on the front lines and need to make the call.
One area where I see a real potential problem is with both husbands getting involved. Not a good idea! Both will try and stand up for and protect their wives.
Maybe you could arrange to meet at a coffee shop. If so I would recommend your husband sit and have a cup of coffee away from you. It's your business, deal with it. He is there only to make sure your not physically harmed.
If you believe the conversation is getting too heated just get up and leave.
If there is a hidden agenda you can't win, but if they are just a little out there you may be able to turn it around. If you can separate yourself a little you can make a game out of it. In the end if the situation is impossible you can just walk out.
Sam
I do appreciate you responding Sam!! I don't know why she feels like she needed to get her husband involved. Like I said, it screams intimidation to me. I have been nothing but professional with her. And when I get off the phone with her, I vent to my poor husband. If I were in her place and asked my husband to take over, he would probably think I was nuts. I agree that it is my business. I am not worried about being physically harmed; I just don't want to be bullied, ya know?
I have offered to reorder the prints and I will do that. If they are still unhappy I am just not sure what I will do. I have been advised by several other photographers to not sell her the CD and release the copyrights. I just don't know.
I didn't have any problem noticing your frustration.
Again venting can be good, we all need that from time to time.
You didn't charge her a sitting fee, so if i might ask, what did you charge for the prints? I ask not to criticize, but to see what's on the table.
I would not simply reprint, or give up my copyright.
If she can articulate what she wants changed, and what would make her happy and if it's within your abilities and reasonable, I would certainly seriously consider doing it.
You always have the ability to tell her to have a nice life and goodby, but of course that should, and will be the last step.
Once you understand the above and are willing to do this you can turn this into a fun game and challenge.
Steel your self for the meeting and understand she is probably as nervous as you are. If she starts out speaking fast and loud, even aggressive it's pretty normal. Don't react. Try speaking slowly and lower your voice a little. Say something like I know your upset, lets work together and fix this. Now let's look at the images you have questions about.
The key here is to keep control, manage and, guide the meeting.
When you slow down your speech and lower you voice most people will shortly begin to pace you which will lower their anxiety and put them more at ease. By using the word "we" you are defining the issue as something that you share and can work together to solve.
These techniques are not nefarious but a method of getting to a point where both parties are calm and rational and where you really can solve the issue.
Think of how you will feel when your customer thanks you and is pleased with the outcome.
We won't be able to talk to you for weeks.
Sam
- Ummmm ... you have originals exposed - usually not a good idea. If they all of a sudden stop communicating, you'll know why.
- You should have charged a session fee. But that's water under the bridge - for next time.
- Becuase you didn't charge a fee and because you admitted to them that you don't know what you are doing, they are attempting to take advantage of you. Don't let them.
- Remember, the contract is there to cover things if there's a disagreement. If you both agree that something needs to be changed to make everyone happy, that is, in essence, a change to the contract - go with it if it makes you happy. However,
- Taking at look at your #25 (you called it out), I see some issues:
- Your WB is off, by quite a bit. Check out the whites of her eyes. You can drop a WB tool onto the whites of most caucasian (white) people and get a pretty good start on a good WB.
- Her lips are a little more than a little over saturated
- Noise ... and there is a bit of it - I'm guessing here as I wasn't on-scene when you shot this but .... I don't know at what ISO you shot this, but I'm thinking it was too high and then you may have pushed the exposure in post.
- Take a look at the attached (your original on top, my edit on bottom). This was just a quick 30-seconds edit to attempt to correct some of the more glaring issues I see in the original.
I would offer her a choice:- Offer a full refund on condition you have returned to you all the prints. If they aren't good enough to pay for, they aren't good enough for them to keep.
- Offer to re-work the problems. Get some expert advice, do it once more and do it right. Re-deliver. If they like them, you're golden. If not, go back to #1
- Shut down on them. Go limp. Don't answer the phone. NOT my first choice, but there it is.
I'll leave it as an exercise to the student to figure out which way I would go with this.My Photos
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You've received lots of fine advice about the pictures from others on this forum, so I won't add my 2c, but I would just like to mention that faced with a similar situation, I'd draw their attention to my rate sheet:
Performing services as per contract (per hour):
$75 (basic)
$100 (if you watch)
$150 (if you help)
- Wil
BTW: Welcome to Digital Grin Photography Forum!
I just took a quick look at the site with the pics and noticed a couple of things:
1. even though you've watermarked the pictures, do yourself a favour and switch off access to the original (otherwise the less scrupulous folk will help themselves…
2. disable right-click-save (otherwise less scrupulous folk… etc… etc…)
BTW - I like your pics, and they're certainly good enough for FaceBook
I think your client is trying to pull a fast one!
That's all…
- Wil
Love it!
Ok thanks. I told you before that I am tough stuff, so I am fine with what you wrote. Let me see if I can address some things.
I have my images watermarked and right click protected. Please further explain what you mean by having originals exposed. I promise I am not slow, but I just don't know what you mean.
Yeah, I get it about the session fee.......
As far as telling her that I don't know what I'm doing... That certainly wasn't my intention, but I can see your point. I will have to be more careful of that from now. It's all a learning process, right???
My ISO was set at 200.
I am very green with regards to editing. I just got Photoshop Elements 2 weeks ago. I am learning. I have offered to correct the oversaturation. I am learning about white balance. I really am trying. I don't think I suck at this, but to tell you the truth, this week has been a test. Thank you for posting your edit. I am going to look at it more closely and see what I can come up with. I guess I have to decide how much more time I am willing to put into this to try to make a client happy who might never be happy.
Can you please explain to me how to switch off access to the original? Thank you.
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Largest size (yours is set to Original right now; Large is plenty big for portrait proofs)
HTH -
- Wil
That way there's never any argument, and I never have to deal with "…well I really didn't mean to order that one, and anyway I've decided that…" etc. etc. etc.
I'm a great believer of the KISS principle
- Wil
Good catch. I was so focused on the conflict resolution I didn't see the technical issues.
When I went and grabbed the image I could see a lot of noise. Looks like it was underexposed, shot at a higher ISO, and pushed in post.
Here is my quick take on it. Maybe too much noise reduction. If I had the RAW I could do a little better but I might be inclined to re-shoot, but that's just me.
Again I think some of the captures are nice with good expressions, but may need a some technical improvement.
Sam
PS: Interesting, this image looks a little washed out when viewed with FireFox from the web, but color is much nicer when I view it in Photoshop.
Seriously, all I did was to
P.S. - I like Sam's edit a bit better than mine.
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Ok, I am getting ready to take my own children out and SHOOT IN RAW!!!! I need a bigger memory card if I am going to shoot in RAW, I think.
Thanks for sharing. I have photoshop elements though.
I definately would have to echo the above advice.
I picked up this one from "Mastering Digital Photography" October magazine published by Photo Techniques.
See: http://phototechmag.com/
Basically I used CYMK proof and curves adjusting the blue and red channels independently in addition to adjusting the brightness of the image. I slightly desaturated the image. Then I used Neat image to clean up some of the noise and added some sharpening.
I worked off of a screen capture and did a fast job but it seem as though there was a lot of noise.
And yes shoot RAW!
Sam
Well,
It seems that you have great advice on the tech side, and lots on the customer relations side.
The first thing I would tell them is'
" I want you to be happy and satisfied with my services as a professional"
To me that sets the scene, they understand what you are offering and you have shown them where you want to go.
Get them to itemise all the issues as they see them, write them down and then confirm in writing later. Once you have that move forward with the processing, send them a proof and get them to sign off on it.
In the end, you will whittle the list down to Zero.
Should you decide to offer any refund, again get them to agree in writing that a refund is offered as full settlement for all outstanding issues.
I recommend the following:
Shoot raw,
Use a reflector or fill flash. (Fill will be easier)
Get lightroom,
Learn to fix white balance with lightroom (easy)
Learn to whiten teeth with lightroom
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The funny thing is she continues to request a CD of the images.
I have her address, so I am going to mail the canvas along with the reprints to her and then we are done. I have tried to make her happy, but I do not think it is possible.
Again, thank you for your assistance.
Thank you for your post. Do you recommend whitening all teeth? I am asking seriously because I don't know if it is a good idea to whiten everyone's teeth even if they aren't really white, KWIM?
Thanks.