Oh groan
Why is it that people continue to hire photographers who know nil to nothing about all this photography? Why is it that someone who purchased an slr automatically thinks they are professional?
I know that we all have to start out somewhere, and that we need to experiment to grow. I frequently visit others websites, and see the same problems over and over again. Year over year, shoot over shoot. I mean, I feel bad for these people who have hired someone to shoot them, only to look back in 10 years and realize, geeze, you can't see our eyes for the casted shadows, great smile on everyone, I think, no one is actually in focus! lol
I know that most consumers are most concerned with the content, and don't see the mistakes that we as professionals have learned not to make, I truly feel bad for the images though that some are collecting as keepsakes :scratch
Any thoughts on this?
I know that we all have to start out somewhere, and that we need to experiment to grow. I frequently visit others websites, and see the same problems over and over again. Year over year, shoot over shoot. I mean, I feel bad for these people who have hired someone to shoot them, only to look back in 10 years and realize, geeze, you can't see our eyes for the casted shadows, great smile on everyone, I think, no one is actually in focus! lol
I know that most consumers are most concerned with the content, and don't see the mistakes that we as professionals have learned not to make, I truly feel bad for the images though that some are collecting as keepsakes :scratch
Any thoughts on this?
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Comments
Go figure....
Jeff
-Need help with Dgrin?; Wedding Photography Resources
-My Website - Blog - Tips for Senior Portraiture
....and I think the best thing I could possibly say here is simply to echo what Jeff already has.
What are some of the most common problems you see?
Here is one that comes to mind. Always composing with the head in the center. Not following the rule of thirds.
Las Cruces Photographer / Las Cruces Wedding Photographer
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It's simple Christine....people always look for the path of least resistance. They want a change and are enamored with the idea of owning their "own" business, to control their hours, to be called a "professional". So, they go out to Best Buy, buy a Rebel then post snapshots all over DGrin and say, "Hey, this is my first time"...and "Hey, what do you think about this?". Meanwhile, the basic fundamentals of good photography are out the window. Let's forget about important color correction, framing, composition, lighting.......no.....it's ART, so you can't suggest anything helpful....and truthfully, it doesn't matter. Everyone is a pro now. People without people skills, photographers without photography skills, "professionals" without knowledge or experience.
What do potential clients know? They get wedding pictures for $500.00 all day long including the reception. "Professionals" are lining up at the door to maybe give them a deal for $400.00! It's not only laughable but downright sickening.
The other day I was in a college's department of music. I was inquiring about who they use for their marketing materials (brocures, flyers, cards, etc.) and that I was still available. There are quite a few concerts forthcoming and thought to remind them.
She say's, "You're too expensive". Hmmm....she say's, "We had this discussion a while ago", smiling of course....and I sayed, "Refresh my memory". Well, the photographer on campus (part time who teaches a class) does it for $75.00 per hour....BUT....she has a "student" who does it for $15.00 an hour. She points back behind her on the shelf, "See, those are my daughter's senior pictures, and he does a nice job". Not bad really, one of the better ones I've seen lately....can't argue with that.
Now honestly.....how do you compete with $15.00 an hour? Don't give me all that doo dah about quality and superior product....in real life...if the picture's in focus and it's a nice picture, properly exposed..then why is someone going to spend $200.00 versus $15.00. Look around here..you don't even have to go to other sites or do a Google search. This site alone has plenty of examples....oh, yea...let's go to Flickr....too many pros to count over there too.
Since photography went digital, with the instant feedback, many truly believe they can do it....a hope, a dream could be a reality. Frankly, they don't understand what it takes nor willing to put in the time, hence the least path of resistance.
The market is saturated....more coming each day. There's no way I could solely rely on photography for my "all sources" of income....not anymore. Product shoots are gone due to CGI, another professional with a Rebel or done in house. Smaller companies are similar to the potential wedding client....price wars. Believe it or not, someone in the company has a digital Rebel and tells the Boss he can take the pictures for the newsletter! Same thing with a product sampling.... The marketplace has changed....drastically as around every corner is a "professional".
NAPP Member | Canon Shooter
Weddings/Portraits and anything else that catches my eye.
www.daveswartz.com
Model Mayhem site http://www.modelmayhem.com/686552
So to my next point. It was a few weeks before my wedding when my p&s broke. Really I don't have a clue what prompted me to buy a dslr, but I did, and I had every intention on learning how to use it. I had ZERO intention of ever doing it for money or for others... but rather just wanted to be able to take some nice pictures of my little girl without drowning her out in flash or missing a cute shot because the response time was so slow. Then I got my wedding pictures back. I cried. By this time I had discovered dgrin, and all the fascinating work by some amazing people here. I had been inspired. I want to be that, I want to stop people from making the same mistake I did...but at the same time I know that I can't just go out and shoot a wedding. It takes practice, good equipment, and lots and lots of knowledge.. I have learned a lot, and I mean A LOT in the past few months, more than I ever expected to, and still I don't have it all yet, but I hope to someday. In the meantime, I have second shot a few weddings to get a feel for it and see if I have a knack for it. I have discovered a genuine passion for this, not because I can make some bucks on the side, but because I truely enjoy it.
Through all this I see the for real professionals and how anyone-with-a-dslr-wedding photographers have hurt them and the industry as a whole. But my take on it is this: if people don't value it, they won't pay for it. period. I didn't value it, and I wasn't willing to pay for it. And...I'm kicking myself in the rear everyday.....
So my point is this: it's not just the a-w-a-dslr-photog's, but also the clients that don't have a clue either. There is not anything that can be done about the a-w-a-dslr-photog's, but for all you pro's, all you can do is try to educate the clients as well as you can about why it's important to hire someone with real knowledge and experience. The people that do know the difference will pay for it and understand that you're a pro, and why you charge pro fees. If the others try to undercut you and say well so and so has a d40 and will do it for $400, explain the best you can between professional work and the first timers, and if they still don't get it I say let them go... and let the idiots be idiots together.
just to clarify I am by no means a pro, but merely learning, and hopefully going about it the right way...and I will not touch a wedding by myself until I have at least $4-5g to invest in more equipment, and until i'm good enough to charge at least $1000. Until then, i stand by as a sidekick and learn from the best on dgrin.
are you saying the day of the professional photographer is gone (with the possible exception of those who cater to the very rich?)
IN a way, that makes sense. I could have never done photography before the days of digital. For one thing, you have to shoot, say 10,000 photos and evaluate them before you get any good. Photography is like anything else--you learn by doing. it was too expensive back in the day you are paying for film and processing. without the luxury of knowing on the spot whether a picture is right and the opportunity to do it again if it is not--or fix it in Lightroom if it is close but not dead on, I couldn't do it.
which means, there are probably a lot of other guys out there that could do photography in the digital world but couldn't have in the film world.
basic economics suggest as supply (of photographers) goes up cost/price is going to go down.
I will be thinking over the implications of this in terms of marketing. it would be curious to hear from some who have been doing weddings for 20 years.
Las Cruces Photographer / Las Cruces Wedding Photographer
Other site
This just seems to be a rant to me. Sure, there will be some poor photographers who have just picked up a DSLR, there are also plenty of poor photographers who have been making a living from it for 20+ years.
If you are good you will still raise to the top of the pack because people will be able to see the difference in your work compared to the other guys. If you're good, but still not getting the work, maybe you need to look at your marketing or how you come across to clients. There are plenty of people doing well, more competition just means you need to compete harder, no point in complaining about it.
What about when you start out intending only to shoot for fun and your own satisfaction and find yourself increasingly satisfied by the experience, as well as unexpectedly encouraged AND asked to do things professionally?
Frankly, that's the position I find myself in. I'm encouraged, motivated and excited by the incredible amount of support I've had here and elsewhere (including the class I took, so not only online) and everything has snowballed entirely outside and beyond any plans or expectations. While I'd been becoming increasingly interested for a while before, I started working on photographic stuff in earnest simply because I had so much unexpected downtime this past year (curses, economic crisis!) and decided I wanted to do SOMETHING productive instead of just sitting around feeling sorry for myself. Sure, I had always enjoyed it, but had never really knuckled down and WORKED at it the way I have this year. Roll on a few months and friends and colleagues who see my photos are now regularly asking me to do shots for them and I'm at a point now where I have to decide whether to formalise this a little more (since my state requires that you register for sales tax, which would, realistically, mean formalising it as a business if only for tax purposes), or whether to take a step back and continue doing it "just for me". I'm still not decided.
I often wonder if I'm overinflating my abilities (nobody is more aware of my artistic and technical shortcomings than I am!), but I also know that under-rating myself as a young singer starting out was (with hindsight) very limiting as the insecurity held me back. With a bit of life experience under my belt (albeit in a different artistic discipline), I'm trying not to be quite as hard on myself this time round and remind myself that "perfection is the enemy of excellence". I continue to push myself, work constantly and intensely on improving my technical skills and be brutal in my self-assessment, but I'm also not adhering to some holy grail of "must be absolutely ready before I do anything" and am thus undertaking shoots that stretch me (oh boy do they stretch me!), but that I think I stand a shot of getting through with some degree of success.
Of course, I'm not usually charging for it either - I've almost exclusively shot for friends to date and, because I feel that I'm portfolio building, have done it on the basis that both sides get the shots out of it, or specifically as a gift as in the case of the e-session (I get the shots, they get the pictures, yet it isn't undercutting somebody or cheapening what I do IF I take this to the pro level at some point). And I'm not shooting weddings, either - that e-shoot is the closest I've come and, while I think I weathered the experience, there is still SO MUCH to learn - believe me, I know my failings! I would never at this stage dream of calling "professional", or undertaking a wedding (as you all know, I'm still not sure I even WANT to shoot weddings, so there's no real conflict there).
In any case, just another county heard from. We all have different paths....
I wanted to quash this notion, before this thread goes the wrong way.
I am ranting, but not because I'm not busy, or because my business soley suffers because of it. Face it, the low ballers, low pricing makes us all suffer. My intent on this post was not to rant because I'm losing business or am not busy, the truth is, it's quite the opposite, thankfully! I'm just wanting to hear feedback from others on this situation, I know it's not something just happening in my city!
Well, if that's the attitude you have, I guess you probably will have a hard time finding the clients that actually do care about quality and a superior product. Photography's not a commodity, and you have to believe that yourself if you're going to sell anyone else on the notion.
http://blog.timkphotography.com
As pros we need to separate ourselves from the lowballers. We need to show better quality work for one thing, and in my opinion we need to highlight this on our website. Talk about how and why you blurred the background, or how and why you used off camera flash to get that gorgeous lighting. I put descriptions by each of my portfolio images talking about the shoot or how it was shot or why I like the image. Then I sit down with people and they repeat the same things back to me. "I want you to do a lot of blurred foreground images" or "I really like how you get that nice lighting from the side instead of strait on". I subtly educate people with my portfolio and make it a point to display images that are impossible to shoot with a rebel and kit glass!
When a pro meets with a client he is professional, confidant, and enthusiastic. I am always on time or early, I respond to emails and phone calls as soon as I possibly can, and I give very specific information about what they pay and what they get so that there is no doubt in anyone's mind. This is called being professional!
I also post my wedding package pricing on my website. I don't care if the competition knows what I charge! If they want to steal 1 from me by lowering their price or adding a feature let them! If a potential client likes what they see they will meet with me and then they are mine. People see what my rates are and almost never try to negotiate with me. "My price is what it costs for me to shoot your wedding. This is how I make my living and my price is fair or low for what my clients get." I have 2 or 3 big dollar studios in town that charge 3x what I do, and I have a couple around here that offer video, dj, and photography for under $2K! They meet with TONS of people and I take some of their business because I tell people about ME. My company is ME and you deal solely with ME. Do you want to pay 3x more and deal with a salesman then meet your photographer on the day of the wedding? Do you want a hobiest to shoot your wedding that may or may not even show up? Do you want to deal witha photographer who isn't even committed enough to photography to buy professional gear? I live, breathe, and speak photography. It is my passion and people see that once they meet me.
I guess all I am saying is that there will always be the lowballers and they will come and go. People who you get the opportunity to talk with need to understand how you are different, and if you aren't... then see the first post of this thread.
I should also say that this all comes from a guy who shot his first wedding only 4 years ago, with a rebel, 3 lenses and a sigma flash who is now doing his damndest to maintain photography as a full time career while eating ramen and peanut butter way too often.
my $.02
Matt
Bodies: Canon 5d mkII, 5d, 40d
Lenses: 24-70 f2.8L, 70-200 f4.0L, 135 f2L, 85 f1.8, 50 1.8, 100 f2.8 macro, Tamron 28-105 f2.8
Flash: 2x 580 exII, Canon ST-E2, 2x Pocket Wizard flexTT5, and some lower end studio strobes
I can't disagree with anyone in particular because everyone makes great points on both sides of the fence... but i know where i stand on the fence and it sucks to aspire to be great and know that you have talent just not the experience. I also can't likely charge thousands for weddings and portraits, etc when I lack a decent portfolio of samples to show. I have to lower prices for my experience level.
The first wedding i did was as a 2nd for my friend and for experience. They turned out to be incredibly happy with my "unprofessional photos" [ from my Nikon D40x with only a kit lens and pop up flash] more so than the "professional" photog. at the wedding [with top of the line equipemt] that they PAID for. It's almost a slap in the face when people want to talk about any ol schmuck with a dslr with it's a case by case situation.
One of the first threads i read on here was someone asking what a professional was..... an overwhelming majority of people said "if you're making money at it, you're a professional". I personally think this is a CROCK of poo but a lot of forum members were backing this statement up.
If i can keep being a part time photog [not "professional"] and get better than maybe someday i will be a professional but right now... it's going to take time and lots of hours of practice. You can't buy equipment without money, and you can't make money with out product. If you can turn out some great stuff with simple equipment, why not?
wrt shwartzy..yeah..the barrier to entry is very small now. Things have changed. I think to be successful these days you have to be very talented and have very good marketing.
14-24 24-70 70-200mm (vr2)
85 and 50 1.4
45 PC and sb910 x2
http://www.danielkimphotography.com
There's lots of good ideas stated in this thread, all of which seem to be centered on the one thing that really seems to consistently stand out for and is constantly repeated by the best young and successful photographers - that you are selling YOU. That is, that you are selling an experience, not a bunch of pictures. It seems to be quite true that while photographers can tell the difference between good pictures and great pictures, brides cannot, and if people are competing based solely on the pictures they take, they're going to lose to someone who's willing to take similar pictures (identical to the bride) for less money.
Hopefully a bride can see the difference between crap pictures and good pictures (and Matt, I really liked the way that you captioned your photos when I took a look at your site a while ago, but it never crossed my mind that it helps your clients learn what's actually involved in making good pictures - great idea), but I see no way to educate non-photographers on what makes a great image stand out from a good image.
So... make yourself stand out by NOT competing over the photos themselves. Find ways to show your clients what a fun/exciting/crazy or chill/relaxed or whatever (depending on your own personal style) time they'll have with you and I believe you'll not only stand head and shoulders above the crowd, you also attract exactly the sorts of couples you want to work with. And yes as Matt said, be professional, courteous and on time. Doing this takes business and marketing skills (to put out the right message in the first place) and people skills (to drive your message home once you've got a client's attention). This is a service industry after all, and I think too many newer photographers stress over the pictures, when we could be competing on a whole other level. Weekend warrior types and newbies who don't get it, and try to sell their photos as a commodity, are never going to compete for the sort of brides you actually want to be hired by (way too many horror stories floating around about cheap brides shopping on price only).
I'm sure as someone with a limited portfolio (haha gotta get around to redoing my site soon too), I'll be charging less than where I want to be to start out, but by focusing on providing clients the best service, I don't expect to have to stay charging on the lower end for long.
Craig Maunder Photography: commercial and wedding photography for Hamilton, London, Toronto, Waterloo and Southern Ontario
I know this because I feel this has happend to me lol.
Now I dont think im a pro by any means.. But iv recieved alot of very positive critisism, even from other advanced photographers.. I try to ignore it because though I do think some of my shots are pretty good.. I do not feel im anywhere near the level of a PRO wedding photographer yet.
But i feel im learning very fast
My Site http://www.jayclarkphotography.com
Canon Rebel T1i | Canon 50mm 1.8 | Tamron 28-75mm 2.8 | Canon 75-300mm EF f 4.5 III | Opteka Grip | Canon 580exII | 2 Vivitar 383 Flash's and a home studio setup.
You missed the point Tim. It's not how I feel or convey or sell "MY" work or value...and trust me, I've been in sales and marketing/self employment for 30+ years. What statement I am making is a "reality check". Just because someone thinks they can fly doesn't mean they can. Nor can anyone compete in any market that is saturated, providing low prices and adequate work. Many clients have no clue what a superior product (and because it's the internet I may have to explain what this means) is..that's why they need educated. Therefore the types of potential client shifts and as Josh recognized, the low end is no longer in the scope of the serious professional...and another reason, those who are in the middle are vying for the same work. The higher end market will always exist.
I was simply pointing out the obvious. IF 1 out of 10 people have a DSLR, they in turn know at least 10 people who "have been wanting to have photos of their family"...and instead of finding a Pro....who gets it.....FOR FREE?????
NAPP Member | Canon Shooter
Weddings/Portraits and anything else that catches my eye.
www.daveswartz.com
Model Mayhem site http://www.modelmayhem.com/686552
In my eyes there are different types, and here's my analogy:
1. Anyone with a dlsr-
So lets say I don't have an accounting degree, but I just happen to purchase turbo tax for my own taxes. Suddenly i'm thinking, "hey, I can charge people $100 to do their taxes and make some extra money because have the tool. I can charge less than the big guys because I don't value the time and effort this takes, and I just want to make money" They don't really care about the end result. that is the way I feel that a lot of the $400 craigslisters are. They showed up, pointed, and shot. simply stick it on green and go=plug in the numbers in turbo tax. THESE are the people that I believe the OP and others are mostly talking about, and what is hurting the industry. These are the people who call themselves photographers because they have a camera. It would be like someone calling themselves an accountant because they have turbotax.
2. Then there's the next type, people who have a genuine desire for it, but not much knowlege or experience. In the accounting world, it would be someone who decides to go to school for it, who really have a passion for taxes and want to do it for a living because they enjoy it (only God knows why,
3. A step above this is what i'll refer to as the "intern" In accounting, this might be someone who has graduated, maybe they're cpa eligible, they have the knowledge but have not had a a lot of experience in the real world. This person might intern for a company to gain real world experience, or they may enter the market, and charge lower prices because they have the knowledge, but not enough experience, but that's ok. They have the knowledge and the resources, know enough to get the job done and understand how and why the job got done or how and why it didn't, and learn from it. In wedding photography terms, this might be someone who has learned and practiced enough, should be able to operate their camera with their eyes closed, can be in a setting and anticipate from what they've learned a general idea of how they are going to get the shot they envision. This would be maybe a second shooter, or a step above, some of the people who are genuinely ready but don't have the real world experience or portfolio to command higher prices. THESE aren't the people who I believe are hurting the industry, and as long as you have the knowledge and are willing to sacrifice time and energy into learning it as a whole, there's nothing wrong with just starting out and charging a little less. Everyone has to start somewhere. But the knowlege and loads of practice must be there. Another thing, part of the learning experience and qualifications is what many have said on this forum...never show up to do a wedding without a backup of EVERYTHING. To me, you should be at least a level 3 before stepping into a wedding by yourself and if you are at this point you would automatically know that backups are a necessity. You wouldn't even dare take a job without planning on backups, because by this point you know it's standard. So, just because you have a d40 doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't start out somewhere. If the vision and the knowlege is there, then you aren't going about it wrong at all. and if you are a "level 3" you should already know how you would handle getting hired for a wedding in a church that has next to 0 light, and you would know that it is a must to rent backups if you can't purchase. You may even lose money on the deal in the first few times, but it should be part of the sacrifice your willing to make. It should be part of a long term plan, not money in your pocket immediately, JUST THE SAME as than any other startup business investment. And again, in my view, there is nothing wrong with these people charging less because they are starting out. But before they start out they need to be knowledgable and not just in it for the money. that is the difference between this and the people in level one.
4. and of course...level 4, which is pretty obvious. Pros/CPA's. They have put their time in, made sacrifices, gotten past the level of costing them to work, and their work commands the price that they are charging, no question.
So bottom line....Anyone with a dslr can take pictures. Anyone with turbotax can "do taxes". it's the end result and knowing how to get the best of the bottom line that will make a difference. If someone wants to pay next to nothing for green mode at their wedding just the same as they would pay H&R block to do taxes, then so be it. The pro photogs will know what it takes to get the best shot, just as the qualified CPA knows how to get the most on your return. You want a lower tax liability/higher quality end result then you have to pay the pro rate. otherwise, your loss, and I mean that literally in tax terms.
Sorry for the silly analogy, but wanted to put in how I view it and hopefully try to bridge the seemingly never ending gap between the pros here and the ones who are genuinely trying to make a name for themselves.
wow..very long read melissa the most interesting part of that was..you are an ACCOUNTANT?!? CAN YOU DO MY TAXES?!?
hehe..agree with all you points btw.
14-24 24-70 70-200mm (vr2)
85 and 50 1.4
45 PC and sb910 x2
http://www.danielkimphotography.com
Yeah I'll do your taxes...50 bucks... and for an additional $50 and I'll shoot your wedding too
With most every service out there, there are different prices people are willing to pay for them. Now, you don't always get what you pay for (sometimes you get more, sometimes less), but generally the more you pay, the nicer the service. That goes for restaurants to hotels to yes, photographers. Compare a Day's Inn to the Hilton. Now, also keep in mind that you can't buy more hours to sleep by paying more money (only 24 hours in a day folks), but you can pay more money to get a more comfortable night's sleep.
Likewise, you aren't buying multiple wedding days...you've only got one day, one shot at it. If you are a bride planning a 30k wedding, you're not going to hire someone for $250 to shoot it.
Conversely, if you're planning a 5k wedding, you can't afford a 4k photographer. There will always be people who have the money to spend 30k+ on a wedding...and there will always be people who only have 5K.
That's why I really don't worry about $250 photographers...they're not in my same market--we're not even competitors. Do you think Neiman Marcus worries about Walmart's reach? No way!
So, just focus on creating an outstanding product that speaks to your market. Forget about the small fish...they're not taking your brides!
Pittsburgh Wedding Photographer
Pittsburgh Wedding Photography Blog
Well said.
I see this in my business every day (engineering). There will always be other firms that practically give their services away. However, they're competing for clients I won't stand a chance with, because they can't afford me. So, I don't bother with them, and spend my time trying to win work with clients that understand, and appreciate, what my services are worth.
Not really Josh. There will always be a need for pros. As others here have mentioned many things about appealing to one's own target market and forgetting the low ballers or the unqualified, my main point is that the market HAS changed. It is a different world now. We have to implement strategies that work, agressively. Discovering those strategies will take a bit of due diligence. What once was the target market has become the property of the novice...not all but certainly a high percentage.
When I say I wouldn't depend on my sole income from photography, I mean right now....not until I develop the new niche for what I do. Many jobs I used to do are no longer available....it's done "in house" and mainly by people who either have a camera in the company or know of the so called "pro" who just got a camera last year. This is only one example of course. I do many types of photography. Weddings are one part of the whole in my career. If self-employment has taught me anything it's being versatile.
Regarding weddings, the same principles apply...there is a shift..a change....it is different than the 80's or 90's or even the early part of 2000's. More and more of what I would consider the "given" clients are now gobbled up due to low priced, inexperienced shooters. It is what it is. I'm not rambling on about how my business is suffering or how it doesn't pay to be a photographer. I am saying as this dynamic has presented itself, one has to completely re-evaluate the types of clients to pursue and alter their marketing strategies.
I hope this is clear.
NAPP Member | Canon Shooter
Weddings/Portraits and anything else that catches my eye.
www.daveswartz.com
Model Mayhem site http://www.modelmayhem.com/686552
You make a very good point here. A lot of patting on the back actually takes place right here on gdrin. It's not that it isn't nice to give someone a pat on the back sometimes, but are we actually giving them a false sense of their abilities. Unfortunatly, often it's noobes congratulating other noobes on a job well done. Are we just setting them up for failure?
I recently attended the wedding of some very good friends. A while back I offered to do their pictures for them and was informed that the FofB already made arrangements. The daughter of an old college buddy with (you guessed it) a Canon Rebel, kit lens, Vivitar flash on the camera. My first impression of their "photographer" set the tone for the whole day. She showed up dressed for a day at a cheap bar. As she began taking pictures at the church I knew right away she was in trouble. She positioned herself in the center aisle several rows behind a guest with a dslr who was continually hanging out into the aisle blocking her view. She had the flash mounted in the hot shoe and pointed at the 30+foot ceiling. This only got worse as the evening progressed. At the reception I struck up a conversation with her to see if I could tell why she actually got the job. It was all because of the recommendation of a friend and nothing to do with cost or ability. Since she didn't have a web site I convinced her to send me a few of her best shots. They were AWFUL. I saw the bride recently and asked how she liked her pictures, she made several excuses and said she really didn't get what she expected and apologized for not having me shoot them. I apologized for not pursueing more vigorously and offered to do some studio shots of the bride and groom. I hope they take me up on my offer, they were a really beautiful couple. So it's not always about the money. By the way, the father spent about 40-50g's on this wedding, but he saved a hell of a lot on pictures .
Possibly... or possibly not.
I think it is reasonable to assume SOME degree of self-awareness plays into all of this but, sadly, some people have none (this goes back to what Swartzy was saying that some people just do NOT get it).
I may be one of those people who has taken positive feedback too seriously - who knows? I would hope that people consider the SOURCE of comments although sadly, I fear, not all people do. When the professionals and those whose work I admire step up to offer me an opionion, you BET I listen hard, even if the comments are not 100% favourable, or don't echo what I thought I knew. I'd be a fool not to listen!!! And, in fact, I take that kind of feedback as far more significant than out-and-out "praise" - for starters, somebody with expertise is taking their valuable time to help me by offering feedback and secondly, Conversely, while it's always really nice to have pats on the back, I HOPE that I can discern between those, and genuinely positive, constructive, educated feedback.
One last point (sorry - rambling over my coffee after a super-late night...): the truly clueless WILL get weeded out one way or another. The truly talented and/or committed WILL find a way to sustain an artistic vision and press forward. One only has to spend more than a couple of months around this place to see that process as people come and go (or stay
Melissa, I absolutely LOVE your analogy and, more imoprtantly, your "tiers" - I think you have summed up very well the kinds of ages-and-stages
Speaking for myself, no I do NOT think that those who comment are "making it look easy" and certainly the comments I have received from the professionals here have definitely given me much to ponder and work on to improve (one of the many reasons I love this place). ALso, since I am a teacher of another artistic discipline, I am pretty used to direct artistic comment/criticism/correction, and try to read even positive comments carefully to determine what they're *really* saying rather than taking them only at face value (lovely though the occasional ego boost may be
This sub-topic veers the thread slightly tangentially away from the original discussion, but it's definitely a reminder that good C&C includes what to IMPROVE as well as what's right. If people take offense at having their artistic children (ie pictures) deconstructed (both pro and con) in the process of improvement, then they probably don't really understand that improvement means CHANGE, means sometimes accepting that you got it seriously wrong and need to go back a step, address the problems and try again. That's not "failure", that's growth, which is always good. I suspect that many who are truly serious about making the jump from "enthusiast" to "pro" realise that, and take it in stride, even when it's sometimes a rough road.
HOwever, as I say, I perhaps come it this from a somewhat different background than many - I can only speak for my own experience.
/tangent.
ETA: If this sounds somewhat defensive, and it isn't meant to be - I'm enjoying the discussion of this "in abstract" and merely using myself as an example since I can speak to my own experience with some degree of authority (but, hopefully, without delusions....
AGREED!
IMO - People who actually want to learn and make their work amazing... will know a real compliment/criticism and blowing smoke. I would like to think my feedback is getting a bit better but who knows. It's also the factor that some people that have only been told their work is amazing are going to get butt hurt when someone professional says... eh you should work on x, y, z. It is what they need to know to produce better work but the skin has to be thick and willing to hear that in order to actually do better next time.
I asked my husband what he though about some baby photos I did last weekend... his response was "i think they're good". WTF?? I could have strangled my husband last night but when i look back at what he said i should have just slapped myself for even asking as he's clueless to photography and art in general. Asking people that are unqualified to give a REAL opinion and critique is like asking a 3rd grader to do quadratic equations.