Comments and Questions about 1st wedding
Hello All,
Let me preface this post by saying that I have read many post both here and elsewhere that seem to be fairly critical of regular consumers wanting to step up in an area they have grown to appreciate and love. It makes one hesitant to post however at the end of the day I want to learn and grow and there is no other way than to subject oneself to criticism. For those that lump people into categories I would like to explain how I came to love photography. I have always had an interest but never took the plunge until last year. I was given a grim prognosis ( Oct 24th of last year ) basically a 30% chance to survive the following day, when I did I told my family that I'm going to do a few things I have always wanted to do instead of working myself to death. One of those things was get a good camera ( subjective i know ) and head to the mountains to take in the fresh air take pictures and make memories. I immediately set about researching and went to purchase my first camera with my family a week later. I was IMMEDIATELY hooked, I have been fairly good at anything I have ever tried yet not very passionate about ANYTHING I have ever accomplished until I discovered the joy oh photography. Not everyone falls into the cookie cutter classifications we are all a little to quick to place them. I went to the store after researching with a predisposition to Nikon as I have several of their scopes and they are of Top notch quality. I ended up with Sony because of reasons that could be debated for days but needless to say even as a notice one thing I KNOW about any hobby I have ever started is that being comfortable is paramount to getting enjoyment so how the camera felt and how well its interface allowed me to interact with it were deciding factors ( along with budget of coarse ). Sony it was and as I got more serious I expanded to an even more easily manipulated body the a700.
That said I shot a wedding free this weekend for the experience and as a favor asked of me ( because im not pretentious enough to believe I should be paid till I KNOW in my heart I can provide a consistent product worthy of monetary reward ). I have a little home studio and concentrated on controlled lighting portrait shots that I incorrectly assumed would be the focus of a traditional wedding. I have reflectors, holders, softbox strobes ect. I even made ( cause Sony doesnt have this ) a little adapter to put my flash on a light stand and fire wirelessly through an umbrella without cords making setup quick and easy outside. When I met the couple at the venue the night before all was out the window. The Groom was adamant about not posing for shots using lighting or anything at all candid and didnt want even flash ect. pure candid. Well needless to say this is not what I had understood as the scheme for the wedding and wasnt my focus of practice leading up to it ( all was short notice anyway ). The Groom was combative and uncooperative in taking any pictures that feddered his complete freedom of movement. I would like some professionals to browse the photos from the wedding and give me a little feedback both in terms of individual shots and maybe bigger picture as well, just any thoughts at all really. I love the technical side of this as well. I will start with a few questions and observances of my own.
1. The biggest mistake I think I made is not being fully prepared for a wide variety of situations, is this normal for first timers if anyone can still remember their first time i would appreciate any stories or insight on it.
2. The 2nd biggest mistake and the single largest thing I need to work on IMHO is my assertiveness. Once they wanted candid shots and the initial confrontation was done I got very diminutive and tried to just blend in and get true candid shots undetected. Any posing that was done was initiated by family members with point and shoots but I did at least have the foresight to take advantage of that so if you take the time to browse my photos no posing was initiated by me.
3. Biggest mistake as related to my equipment load out is split 2 fold
a. I need a true wide angle lens, if you look at my photos you will the the first one is of the venue at night with the bride sitting in front and calling the owners. This shot with say 11mm would have been my favorite of the shoot because I could have gotten the entire lodge with its awesome lighting ( remember it was a halloween wedding ) with PERFECT clouding shrouding a full moon. I ache when i think of the shot opportunity i lost on that. Plus there were several multi person grouping shots i could have gotten AND encased with the awesome settings by getting tighter. I just found myself wishing several times during the day and night before that I could go wider.
b. My wife shot as my second but I needed a second camera with say my Minolta 28-75 f2.8 then my 70-200 f2.8 on the other since this was shot mainly outside. I found myself missing shots even trying to anticipate while swapping lenses.
4. Wanting to accommodate the flow of the wedding I stayed to out of the way so to speak and in hindsight really feel like I should have inserted myself more into the ceremony even if that meant not being so aesthetically pleasing to the attendees and family alike.
Any comments on my own observances would be appreciated. Now to my questions.
1. Holy cow is it hard to shoot a black suit and white dress in direct sunlight at 3pm ( before time change )? I tried to use the AEL to meter off the average light AROUND the Bride and Groom but I Still tended to over expose the dress. Spot metering AEL nothing really seemed to help but I did get acceptable results in manual underexposing on purpose and hoping I could adjust in PP later ( shot in Raw wife shot jpeg ). If any of you look through my photos please offer up any suggestions to take better pictures in direct sunlight and through a canopy of trees casting a million shadows! I had planned to use the umbrella and wireless flash in settings that I had scoped out on the venue website but if you read my small ebook up top you know what happened there and I didnt really have a backup plan.
2. Is it considered rude to firmly suggest that if they dont want flash then postpone the wedding for better light? The light on the mountainside was absolutely beautiful about 5:30pm? What would you guys have done in this situation?
3. Should I have insisted that consistent results in these situations would be aided by the use of a controlled lighting situation with my umbrella and indoors with the strobe and softbox? making sure we get at least a few GREAT pictures?
4. I didnt get paid but I really feel like I let the family of the Bride down who paid for everything else, how much weight should be applied to the grooms wishes? lets face it he is not going to be looking at the pictures or emailing them or ordering prints its the Bride and family i let down and you just cant redo a wedding day.
If you take your valuable time to browse my pictures please bear in mind that most havent had any PP at ALL on them and those that did were done with ACDSEE using very basic exposure and cropping adjustments. I dont mind harshness if its not being done out of meanness, Weddings may not be something I ever want to do however my personality sees it as a challenge and I would LOVE to learn more about it. I am fairly familiar with the exposure triangle and how to manipulate my camera but Im no expert yet, I shoot mainly A priority where i get the depth I want or full Manual. I only mention this because if you see technical issues with my exposures I should be able to follow your critique if you show choose to spend any time doing it.
Above all if there are any you like or if there are some that you like but WOULD BE BETTER IF I would love to hear that too. I love my new hobby and it feels good to have something Im actually passionate about for the first time in my life, wouldnt you know I would pick something hard to truly be good at requiring both technical and artistic skill!
BTW ANYONE who learned on film has to be one patient and talented individual I have taught myself by research and good ole basic cause n effect. However shooting 10000 frames on a weekend to do this would not be feasible for film shooters also cant imagine not having the instant feedback from the LCD lord so much respect for truly good film shooters....
http://3sphotography.smugmug.com/Weddings/Erics-N-Laurens-Wedding/10208609_yMLjc#704417573_cWwmk
Let me preface this post by saying that I have read many post both here and elsewhere that seem to be fairly critical of regular consumers wanting to step up in an area they have grown to appreciate and love. It makes one hesitant to post however at the end of the day I want to learn and grow and there is no other way than to subject oneself to criticism. For those that lump people into categories I would like to explain how I came to love photography. I have always had an interest but never took the plunge until last year. I was given a grim prognosis ( Oct 24th of last year ) basically a 30% chance to survive the following day, when I did I told my family that I'm going to do a few things I have always wanted to do instead of working myself to death. One of those things was get a good camera ( subjective i know ) and head to the mountains to take in the fresh air take pictures and make memories. I immediately set about researching and went to purchase my first camera with my family a week later. I was IMMEDIATELY hooked, I have been fairly good at anything I have ever tried yet not very passionate about ANYTHING I have ever accomplished until I discovered the joy oh photography. Not everyone falls into the cookie cutter classifications we are all a little to quick to place them. I went to the store after researching with a predisposition to Nikon as I have several of their scopes and they are of Top notch quality. I ended up with Sony because of reasons that could be debated for days but needless to say even as a notice one thing I KNOW about any hobby I have ever started is that being comfortable is paramount to getting enjoyment so how the camera felt and how well its interface allowed me to interact with it were deciding factors ( along with budget of coarse ). Sony it was and as I got more serious I expanded to an even more easily manipulated body the a700.
That said I shot a wedding free this weekend for the experience and as a favor asked of me ( because im not pretentious enough to believe I should be paid till I KNOW in my heart I can provide a consistent product worthy of monetary reward ). I have a little home studio and concentrated on controlled lighting portrait shots that I incorrectly assumed would be the focus of a traditional wedding. I have reflectors, holders, softbox strobes ect. I even made ( cause Sony doesnt have this ) a little adapter to put my flash on a light stand and fire wirelessly through an umbrella without cords making setup quick and easy outside. When I met the couple at the venue the night before all was out the window. The Groom was adamant about not posing for shots using lighting or anything at all candid and didnt want even flash ect. pure candid. Well needless to say this is not what I had understood as the scheme for the wedding and wasnt my focus of practice leading up to it ( all was short notice anyway ). The Groom was combative and uncooperative in taking any pictures that feddered his complete freedom of movement. I would like some professionals to browse the photos from the wedding and give me a little feedback both in terms of individual shots and maybe bigger picture as well, just any thoughts at all really. I love the technical side of this as well. I will start with a few questions and observances of my own.
1. The biggest mistake I think I made is not being fully prepared for a wide variety of situations, is this normal for first timers if anyone can still remember their first time i would appreciate any stories or insight on it.
2. The 2nd biggest mistake and the single largest thing I need to work on IMHO is my assertiveness. Once they wanted candid shots and the initial confrontation was done I got very diminutive and tried to just blend in and get true candid shots undetected. Any posing that was done was initiated by family members with point and shoots but I did at least have the foresight to take advantage of that so if you take the time to browse my photos no posing was initiated by me.
3. Biggest mistake as related to my equipment load out is split 2 fold
a. I need a true wide angle lens, if you look at my photos you will the the first one is of the venue at night with the bride sitting in front and calling the owners. This shot with say 11mm would have been my favorite of the shoot because I could have gotten the entire lodge with its awesome lighting ( remember it was a halloween wedding ) with PERFECT clouding shrouding a full moon. I ache when i think of the shot opportunity i lost on that. Plus there were several multi person grouping shots i could have gotten AND encased with the awesome settings by getting tighter. I just found myself wishing several times during the day and night before that I could go wider.
b. My wife shot as my second but I needed a second camera with say my Minolta 28-75 f2.8 then my 70-200 f2.8 on the other since this was shot mainly outside. I found myself missing shots even trying to anticipate while swapping lenses.
4. Wanting to accommodate the flow of the wedding I stayed to out of the way so to speak and in hindsight really feel like I should have inserted myself more into the ceremony even if that meant not being so aesthetically pleasing to the attendees and family alike.
Any comments on my own observances would be appreciated. Now to my questions.
1. Holy cow is it hard to shoot a black suit and white dress in direct sunlight at 3pm ( before time change )? I tried to use the AEL to meter off the average light AROUND the Bride and Groom but I Still tended to over expose the dress. Spot metering AEL nothing really seemed to help but I did get acceptable results in manual underexposing on purpose and hoping I could adjust in PP later ( shot in Raw wife shot jpeg ). If any of you look through my photos please offer up any suggestions to take better pictures in direct sunlight and through a canopy of trees casting a million shadows! I had planned to use the umbrella and wireless flash in settings that I had scoped out on the venue website but if you read my small ebook up top you know what happened there and I didnt really have a backup plan.
2. Is it considered rude to firmly suggest that if they dont want flash then postpone the wedding for better light? The light on the mountainside was absolutely beautiful about 5:30pm? What would you guys have done in this situation?
3. Should I have insisted that consistent results in these situations would be aided by the use of a controlled lighting situation with my umbrella and indoors with the strobe and softbox? making sure we get at least a few GREAT pictures?
4. I didnt get paid but I really feel like I let the family of the Bride down who paid for everything else, how much weight should be applied to the grooms wishes? lets face it he is not going to be looking at the pictures or emailing them or ordering prints its the Bride and family i let down and you just cant redo a wedding day.
If you take your valuable time to browse my pictures please bear in mind that most havent had any PP at ALL on them and those that did were done with ACDSEE using very basic exposure and cropping adjustments. I dont mind harshness if its not being done out of meanness, Weddings may not be something I ever want to do however my personality sees it as a challenge and I would LOVE to learn more about it. I am fairly familiar with the exposure triangle and how to manipulate my camera but Im no expert yet, I shoot mainly A priority where i get the depth I want or full Manual. I only mention this because if you see technical issues with my exposures I should be able to follow your critique if you show choose to spend any time doing it.
Above all if there are any you like or if there are some that you like but WOULD BE BETTER IF I would love to hear that too. I love my new hobby and it feels good to have something Im actually passionate about for the first time in my life, wouldnt you know I would pick something hard to truly be good at requiring both technical and artistic skill!
BTW ANYONE who learned on film has to be one patient and talented individual I have taught myself by research and good ole basic cause n effect. However shooting 10000 frames on a weekend to do this would not be feasible for film shooters also cant imagine not having the instant feedback from the LCD lord so much respect for truly good film shooters....
http://3sphotography.smugmug.com/Weddings/Erics-N-Laurens-Wedding/10208609_yMLjc#704417573_cWwmk
0
Comments
1st of all I hope you do intend to stick these through a processing flow...many shot could use an exposure, contrast, saturation, curves, adjustment. Overall I think you did okay. Not great, not terrible either. I do think you could use some more agressive culling though. Many shots are quite similar.
You had a challenging shoot with all the dappled lighting. I would suggest you pick the your 10 best..process them and post them for better commentary.
14-24 24-70 70-200mm (vr2)
85 and 50 1.4
45 PC and sb910 x2
http://www.danielkimphotography.com
I dont have a true workflow worked out yet, I started using AcdSee because I like the database management capabilities of it. I know a LOT of them are over exposed also some I worked on were actually do dark when I went to print them. SO much to learn get em good on a monitor doesnt seem to translate to print, i guess i need to get the two to match and remember the adjustments. What programs would you suggest for a beginner?
Thanks for reading the whole post HAHA
Your post references a number of things that should be addressed before The Day:
- Communicate - often and early. You needed to find out from the B&G what it is they expected of you. You practiced one thing and was asked to deliver something completely different.
- Weddings are always a fluid affair. It is usually best to attend one or two (or more) without a camera just to get the feel of what happens. Watch the professional photog for clues as to how they handle things and then, based on what you see, figure out how you are going to handle similar situations. It's called pre-planning.
- Assertiveness - there's a delicate balance to be held there. You want to be able to deliver the requested shots, but at the same time, the wedding isn't about the photos - is a religeous ceremony and the focus for all in attendance needs to be on that. As a wedding photographer, you are there as a service provider. You need to be providing that service. That means you need to be something other than a wall-flower.
Questions & Answers:- To shoot a white gown next to a black tux, you need to:
- Know your camera and know how it responds to extremes
- Chimp - early and often. Trust your histogram. It's not perfect, but it's the best tool you have unless you have a good light meter at hand. Take some test shots before you need to be making the real photos. Did you blow out the highlights? If so, adjust the exposure to get the gown exposed in the right-most stop of the histogram. As for the tux, it falls where it may. You have to remember that the bride paid for the gown while the groom, typically, only rents the tux.
- Try to control the dynamic range of the shot. There are more than a few in your gallery where you have a very bright (and meaningless) object in the composition, causing your camera to underexpose the subject (the B&G).
- You usually don't have an option to control the time of the wedding ceremony. But, you do have an opportunity to provide the B&G with expert opinion. If the situation calls for some fill flash then use it. If the B or G complain, then explain what you are doing and why and/or let them know that without the flash, the photos will be substandard. But, you sometimes have to educate the client in order to get willing cooperation to do what needs to be done.
- Yes. See previous.
- How much does the groom count? That should be the subject of a discussion between the B&G. He "should" be there and willing to do whatever it takes to make her happy. But, that's just me. However, you can talk to the bride and explain the consequences of certain choices and get her to influence the groom. I've done it and it sometimes works. It can turn a chore (for the groom) into something that is light and fun. But that takes a bit of experience to move things in that direction.
I did take a quick look at the pictures. Some things I see that need attention:My Photos
Thoughts on photographing a wedding, How to post a picture, AF Microadjustments?, Light Scoop
Equipment List - Check my profile
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Thanks! In hindsight I realize im asking a lot out of this community and I appreciate the time you took to browse through my chaos of a post and pictures. You mentioned paying attention to composition or whats in the frame. One thing I noticed is that while my camera has a nice bright viewfinder it would seem that one with more accurate coverage could be preferred in this situation to keep down PP times.
Thanks again for the direction I will work on it and continue to study the craft, there is no substitute for doing it however I should be familiar enough with the flow that Im only concerned with composition and exposure? You were correct to identify that I was uncomfortable with even what would happen. Let me say this once the wedding turned into a more upscale affair I tried to get the family to hire a professional which would have been best case for me scenario for me. I would have learned so much more under those circumstances and took some shots myself ( not getting in their way ).
I forgot to mention that I tried to get the B&G ( at least the bride ) to meet me at the venue the day before around the planned ceremony time, I really feel this would have given me a heads up on metering ideas. Is this something done? or at least let me tour the venue at the time of day the wedding will take place or is that flawed logic?
thanks
Shawn
I use Gimp for post-processing. It's free open-source software. Someday I'd like to get Photoshop and maybe Lightroom, but it's just not in the cards for me at the moment. Gimp does have a ton of capability for a free program, so I'd recommend starting out with that.
Also, I haven't looked at your shots yet, but as one who just shot my first wedding last month for a whopping $200, I can tell you how I went about preparing for it.
Research, research, research. I checked this forum almost daily in the couple months leading up to the wedding, and subscribed to several photo blogs by wedding photographers. I took notes in a tiny notebook on poses and points to remember and brought that with me for the big day. I scheduled a friend to be my reflector buddy (no flash allowed for mine either). I can't tell you how much looking at other photographers' work helped me.
Lastly, it is kinda rude to ask the couple to reschedule the wedding for better light. They plan this stuff months and months and months if not over a year in advance. As the photographer, it's our job to work with the situation and to explain what the potential problems with the situation might be and how we intend to handle those problems to the B&G ahead of time. We can't expect them to reschedule the most important day of their lives because we have a complaint about the lighting.
Anyway, best of luck in the new hobby! Keep checking in here regularly and you will be sure to learn a lot. I know I did!
Spread the love! Go comment on something!
My Photos
Thoughts on photographing a wedding, How to post a picture, AF Microadjustments?, Light Scoop
Equipment List - Check my profile
Thanks very much for your reply, I will check GIMP out! Also I like the perspective of another novice ( while well above me ) when I thought about making this thread i pondered were my fears and frustrations shared among others starting out?
I realize it would be kind of rude
I dont have much knowledge however I still didnt assert what I do know, I think if I do it again I should ratchet that area up a bit. It occurs to me they may have picked up on my lack of confidence and offered more resistance than if a true professional was "telling" them the same things......
This is a great forum I love browsing through the photo's too! even if they make my own shortcomings all that much more evident
Shawn
My viewfinder is 95% so I guess thats fairly good, I guess if in doubt go wide till I learn more that way I can crop down?
Good point I assume too much I probably should have just watched the Pro the first time out maybe grab some "snap shots" when convenient.
What I have gathered so far on the technical side of things is that
1. Need to become more familiar with metering under a wider variety of circumstances, I only thought I was getting proficient till this day so thats actually a good thing. I haven't done many people shots outside period till lately.
2. Get more comfortable with my camera where achieving correct exposure becomes instinctive freeing me up to concentrate on composition. I really think a lot of the trouble with these shots is that I was overwhelmed dealing with exposure so the moment was passing and I rushed the shots.
3. Develop me a work flow that yields consistent white balance and exposure.
Know whats funny I watched and read a lot of instructionals on weddings HOWEVER NONE of them presented a real world representation of a wedding whereby flow and how fluidly you move with it is displayed. The wedding got out of hand and I became reactionary instead of predictive and ready for the changing situations I feel like I was falling further and further behind. Its an eye opener I have a lot respect for YOU PRO's.
Shawn..if you intend to fet seriosu with this or any other pro work..you need 2 things:
1) calibrate your monitor with something like Eye one or spyder..this helps to insure that the colors your are seeing are more true for print and web viewing
2) a program that can batch edit your photos. Lightroom is great for that.
14-24 24-70 70-200mm (vr2)
85 and 50 1.4
45 PC and sb910 x2
http://www.danielkimphotography.com
Thanks Qarik! After all the questions I asked I was embarrassed to ask this too, but I can already tell by going to my other PC that one of the Problems is the machine I edited on! Then when i tried to print it was NOTHING like it. Just seems reasonable that at some point the monitor you work on has to be referenced. Thanks, Ill check those out.
About the batch one thing I could tell is that my custom presets in camera were set up wrong looks like. I had the saturation up a bit because it looked better on the viewfinder that way however I found myself pulling color out ( and still not enough ) in EVERY photo I processed ( which alot arent even PPd at all ). Batch processing would have been so nice! Lightroom is Adobe right? guess I need to break down and deal with software!
oh and one other thing..shooting in jpeg is risky. Seasoned pros can do it but if you are starting out..shoot RAW. It gives you 2 real advantages over jpeg.
1) custom white balance..you don't have to worry about white balance at all during the shoot. It can all be done in post processing. If you shoot in jpeg you lose some flexibility in this respect.
2) recovering blown highlights or underexposed areas. With jpeg the pixel you see is the pixel you get. In RAW the pixel you "see" contains more data..subsequently if some portion of your image is blown out then, you can recover the some of the detail in that area with RAW for example. With jpeg you can turn down the brightness but you won't recover any detail. This gives you a little more lattidude if your exposure is off.
14-24 24-70 70-200mm (vr2)
85 and 50 1.4
45 PC and sb910 x2
http://www.danielkimphotography.com
and all that everyone said is valid....
HOWEVER, let me say this...
For a FREE wedding photographer, this couple should be perfectly content with what you have shot... after you edit (as in eliminate) and then crop and process your remaining images....you have captured their day for them!
Trish
www.rteest42.com
www.aliaslaceygreen.com
http://www.etsy.com/shop/rteest42
+1 for the above...not a bad set for your first time.
One of my suggestions is your framing...you can crop down if you have the image...unfortunately...you have, and I didn't look at all 200+ images, a lot of head room above your subject...I found myself looking at a lot of ceiling when I should have been looking at more dress, flowers, bride, etc.
Remember, you are photographing the wedding, not the sky, trees, the ceiling, walls, etc...lol...
I also noticed that you have some good captures that are off center, and it doesn't really look like you can crop them so they will look right.
Like Scott said, check your histogram...you are under exposed in quite a few of your shots...or so it looks to me...try to put the bump in the middle without running off of the edges.
One other thing that will help you get good shots is to move your focal point in your camera...rather than focus and recompose...that's a sure way to get OOF images...soft in appearance...when you thnk you are bang on focus wise....
And, you have the walking bust shot....a head with shoulders walking through some nondescript room...not very interesting to say the least.
You also have a lot of candid shots that are not very interesting...bad captures...try posing more...I find these few words will produce some of your best shots..."picture please." You will be surprised how many people with stop talking with their back turned to you and suddenly join their friends and acquaintances for a wonderful album shot...and it's catchy...I've turned around once I started doing the "picture please," thing and found a small line behind me...asking if I had time to take their picture...
Be brave...act like you know what you are doing. You will find out that for the most part...everyone is keying off of your actions. "What's he doing? What should we do...act normal...play happy wedding guests...pose...are we supposed to ask the photographer for pictures...???...and on and on...
One final caveat...watch the mottled lighting...it will give you a headache...ask the bride and groom...or whomever...to please move to a shaded area, or use fill flash outdoors...it will make all the difference.
Like I said, nice set for your first wedding...
Hope I didn't restate too much from previous posts...
Thanks for sharing....
Educate yourself like you'll live forever and live like you'll die tomorrow.
Ed
Thanks Trish!!!
Thanks for your observations and tips! Its funny you mention about shooting for the people flowers ect in hindsight and with a little time I believe myself to have been to smitten with the locations beauty. Normally thats what I would have want to capture but I honestly think it affected my framing of the shots as they were almost all outside in that beautiful scenery. I mean right off I wanted to capture the awesome lighting of the lodge the night before then began pining for a UWA lens like a 10-20mm so I could capture more of the scene and well what would have suffered? the subjects. Lots to learn this is going to break me or be a real fun process.......time will tell....