idea of the day

joshhuntnm · November 13, 2009

Had an idea today, thought I would see if anyone has tried anything like this before I try it.

Go to the soccer field
Find a parent
Ask if they have a kid out there
Ask if they would like pics
Explain there is no obligation
Hand them a business card with instructions
Ask them to point out their kid
Take a dozen or so shots with 70 - 200
Repeat with a hundred more parents
Tweak pics in Lightroom and upload to smugmug.
Wait for the money to roll in!

What do you think?

goldenstarphoto · November 13, 2009

I have had this same idea........haven't tried it though.

Can't wait to see if anyone has.

Erbeman · November 13, 2009

That's so simple, it would work.

joshhuntnm · November 13, 2009

Erbeman wrote:

That's so simple, it would work.

what would you charge for a 4 X 6?

Erbeman · November 13, 2009

joshhuntnm wrote:

what would you charge for a 4 X 6?

Go to my website and check my prices. They are reasonable but I'm not giving them away either.

StevenSzabo · November 13, 2009

very reasonable prices for the caliber of work you're offering there Erbeman.

And to the OP, far from an original concept I hate to say, and honestly, shooting soccer with a 70-200 is going to be quite limiting even on a crop body, just saying. Soccer is among the largest of the field sports, and to fill the frame with action you're going to be limited to action that happens on whatever side of the field you're in.

Frog Lady · November 13, 2009

StevenSzabo wrote:

...shooting soccer with a 70-200 is going to be quite limiting even on a crop body, just saying. Soccer is among the largest of the field sports, and to fill the frame with action you're going to be limited to action that happens on whatever side of the field you're in.

if he focuses on the youngers w/ the smaller fields, it should work ok. And those might be the parents more willing to buy as well.

C.

StevenSzabo · November 13, 2009

Frog Lady wrote:

And those might be the parents more willing to buy as well.

C.

this I would definitely agree on...the less professional the players the more people want their pictures

With my experience with motorsports, the higher up the food chain you go the less pictures you can sell them...I sell far more from a track day than I do a race weekend because those people aren't the ones that are doing it ALL the time and have been for years.

joshhuntnm · November 13, 2009

good insights. supposing this works, would you recommend 100 - 400 or something longer still?

StevenSzabo · November 13, 2009

100 - 400 is a great lens from what I've seen(I'm a nikon guy so I can't fully comment) may also try adding a teleconverter to your bag...I regularly shoot with a Nikon 1.7 TC although I believe canon doesn't make a 1.7, even a 1.4 will put you out 280mm on your 70-200, then with your 1.6 crop you've got an effective reach of just under 450mm so not to bad at all(PS I might fail at math a little bit).

In this sort of business plan it's all about getting the images up fast while the game is still fresh in people's minds. Sure sales will trickle in somewhat over the course of a few weeks, but the bulk of sales I see are within a few days of the event, so I try to always have everything for a day hosted up by no later than midnight that night...it makes for some long days during 3 day race weekends, but it's fun in its own way.

Frog Lady · November 13, 2009

I use a 100-400 for most of my soccer shots (see my galleries in the link below if you want). It's heavy and I would recommend a monopod, especially if you'll be out shooting for a while. That being said, if you're not careful, it can still be too short. Work on field positioning, particularly if you're shooting a specific player. Remember one of the rules of sports shooting: shoot tight, crop tighter. You want to fill the frame with the player you're shooting as much as possible.

But, before you invest in a 100-400, you might try getting a 1.4 TC (again, especially if you'll be shooting under 10's, and maybe w/ TC, under 12's). But this would work best if your 70-200 is an f/2.8 (and not the f/4 version)

Gary752 · November 14, 2009

How about talking to the coach, and setting up a photo session on a practice night? The coach could arrange it so the players would wear their game uniforms that night, and you could take your photos on the field, so you could fill the frame with the player, if you don't have the long glass. This would also give you the chance to do team photos as well. Back in the early 80's I coached little league football, and we had a pro come in and do this. If I remember right, he sold a package of 1 8x10 (team photo) 1 5x7 (individual player), and some wallets for around $60.00. The 8x10 & 5x7 was in some sort of cardboard frame, and it had the name of the team and the year imprinted on the makeshift frame. If I remember right, he also offered trading cards as part of another package.

Another thing you can try, that isn't done very often, is to do bowling leagues if you have a bowling center in your area. I would contact each league secretary and offer to do team and individual photos one night after they are done bowling, if time permits, and to cover their awards banquet at the end of the season as well. Most bowlers would love to have a photo of them receiving that trophy for winning the league, or for the highest game or series. I know I wish I had photos of some of the awards I won when I was into bowling BIG time. The bowling center I bowled at was a 36 lane center, and was extremely busy. The average team consisted of 4 people to a team, some 5. Times that by 36 and you get an idea of how many bowlers there were there for one league. Most nights there were 2 shifts of leagues too! Also, teams are changing who bowls on their team from year to year, so there is an opportunity for repeat business. Another thing you can do is contact the bowling center owner or league cooridinator and ask if they hold in house tournaments, and if they do, who runs them. Then contact that person about taking photos of the winners to be displayed at the bowling center. Some centers also display photos of bowlers who roll a perfect game, so there is another opportunity.

GaryB

dgphotos · November 14, 2009

Parents can be cheap
I have tried this many times and have had different levels of sucess. I have shot soccer, baseball, football and motocross and posted the images on SmugMug. While at the event I handed out business cards with the link to the SmugMug shots and then people can look at them and order whatever they like. It has been baffeling to me why some evens sell okay and others just don't sell at all. I am confident that the quality of the photos is not the problem.
With a PRO SmugMug account I can track the "hits" and consider this the amount of folks who have at least opened up the images and looked.
It seems to me that some parents who at first are "all over" the idea of their child being photographed by a professional and the images posted on the website. I don't know why they haven't sold that well overall.

I charge between 15 and 18 dollars for an 8x10 and about 14 dollars for a 4x6. I have checked out others prices and they quality of their images and feel that I am in the ballpark on my prices and would say the images I post are better than average.

I think it is a good approach and would welcome any ideas on how to make more sales. It seems that the more well off a person appears to be the less likely they are to purchase an image.

Explaine that one to me........Maybe they would feel better if I charged more.

Give me some feedback.

Thanks
Dirty Dave

joshhuntnm · November 14, 2009

dgphotos wrote:

I have tried this many times and have had different levels of sucess. I have shot soccer, baseball, football and motocross and posted the images on SmugMug. While at the event I handed out business cards with the link to the SmugMug shots and then people can look at them and order whatever they like. It has been baffeling to me why some evens sell okay and others just don't sell at all. I am confident that the quality of the photos is not the problem.
With a PRO SmugMug account I can track the "hits" and consider this the amount of folks who have at least opened up the images and looked.
It seems to me that some parents who at first are "all over" the idea of their child being photographed by a professional and the images posted on the website. I don't know why they haven't sold that well overall.

I charge between 15 and 18 dollars for an 8x10 and about 14 dollars for a 4x6. I have checked out others prices and they quality of their images and feel that I am in the ballpark on my prices and would say the images I post are better than average.

I think it is a good approach and would welcome any ideas on how to make more sales. It seems that the more well off a person appears to be the less likely they are to purchase an image.

Explaine that one to me........Maybe they would feel better if I charged more.

Give me some feedback.

Thanks
Dirty Dave

Are there any issues about permission? Ever had anyone complain they don't want their kids pics posted?

I am curious about price. I have not looked much, but prices I have seen are 4 - 6 bucks for a 4 X 6.

It is all about dollar per hour to me, not price of work. In other words, I'd rather sell a million cheap than a few expensive.

I'd be curious if anyone had experimented with different price points on a deal like this.

tjk60 · November 14, 2009

Dirty Dave I think you are way on the outer edge with $14 for a 4x6. Don't use my prices as an example, I'm shooting in MI, there is not a lot of working people here anymore. Most tournaments I go to charge $10 and that is with exclusivity

StevenSzabo · November 14, 2009

joshhuntnm wrote:

Are there any issues about permission? Ever had anyone complain they don't want their kids pics posted?

They're in a public place with no reasonable expectation of privacy. Legally you are in the clear. That being said, if a parent isn't comfortable it is just good business sense to simply ask for their childs number and not post pictures of them. Make sure you make it clear that it is as a courtesy though, not a legal requirement.

Another thing I have run in to is people not understanding the difference between you selling the picture for personal use and selling it for commercial use. I've had people say "well if someone buys it and it ends up in an ad without credit to me that doesn't seem fair" I just had to explain to them the difference, and where the requirement for a release would come in to play in that case.

I am curious about price. I have not looked much, but prices I have seen are 4 - 6 bucks for a 4 X 6.

It is all about dollar per hour to me, not price of work. In other words, I'd rather sell a million cheap than a few expensive.

I'd be curious if anyone had experimented with different price points on a deal like this.

you can set the prices to make whatever you want, experiment with it a bit and see where you end up. I will say that the people that will buy an image at $6 will probably buy it at $15 if it's all that you're offering, and the people that won't buy an image at $15 generally won't buy it at $6 either, there's a definite line between people that want to look and people that want to buy. The people that are buying the images want the images and generally understand that your time is not free. If you're overly concerned about it, you can always offer a bulk option privately. Say the price on your site is the price if you want one image, if you would like all the images of your son/daughter/dog contact me and we will work a deal for all of them...at the end of the season I offer a disc of all the full sized jpegs of the rider for the whole season for $100...I've had single customers spend $200 on the photos from a single event, but those people were ready to spend the money regardless, and I'm not about to stop them.

ian408 · November 14, 2009

StevenSzabo wrote:

They're in a public place with no reasonable expectation of privacy. Legally you are in the clear. That being said, if a parent isn't comfortable it is just good business sense to simply ask for their childs number and not post pictures of them. Make sure you make it clear that it is as a courtesy though, not a legal requirement.

Be very careful with this assumption because in many cases, it's a false assumption.

Much has already been written about this so a little search is in order if you need more info.

StevenSzabo · November 14, 2009

I would venture as far as to say that over 75% of soccer fields are in public parks, or publicly owned fields. So as long as you are shooting with the permission of the organizers, I think my assumption is actually pretty safe. And I've read the assorted threads...don't assume because I have a low post count on here I don't know what I'm talking about.

Thanks.

ian408 · November 14, 2009

StevenSzabo wrote:

I would venture as far as to say that over 75% of soccer fields are in public parks, or publicly owned fields. So as long as you are shooting with the permission of the organizers, I think my assumption is actually pretty safe. And I've read the assorted threads...don't assume because I have a low post count on here I don't know what I'm talking about.

Thanks.

I'm not making assumptions with respect to post count.

In your original post, you left out "with permission of the organizers" which is a pretty important piece of information to leave out. You also say that "75% of soccer fields are in public parks, or publicly owned fields.". Just because it occurs in a public park does not make it a public event.

Both of these facts affect your ability to shoot and it's important you know about them before you assume it's OK to shoot.

StevenSzabo · November 15, 2009

I just assumed it would be common sense to ask the organizer for permission to be there shooting. My apologies for the assumption if it lead to any issues.

attorneyjay · November 15, 2009

joshhuntnm wrote:

Ever had anyone complain they don't want their kids pics posted?

I tried taking pics of 6 - 12 year old football teams in action. The league required parents to sign a waiver allowing their kid's pics to be posted on their website. So, they didn't want me doing it on my own. Twice I asked whether they would like me to shoot action pics at games and post to their own websites. No charge for my time, just hoping some would buy from me after seeing pics. Never responded. So, taking pics of pre-teen has been a dead end for me but I know others have done OK with it.

Now I do only high school. Never any problem with taking and posting pics on my website.

nipprdog · November 15, 2009

My .02 on these threads;

IMHO, it's not a question of whether 'we can or can't'.

It's how WE should conduct our business.

I only shoot in leagues where I have their approval, and their support. I don't care whether or not, I need it, to shoot.

Also, all of my youth galleries are password protected. Again, I don't care if I have to, or not. Parents like private galleries.

I wouldn't do business any other way.

Not directing this at any one in particular, but shooters who simply show up, shoot at will, post on the net publicly, and when they get questioned on it, cry "public domain, 1st amendment,etc", can make us all look bad in the long run.

Again, it's not a question of legality, its a case of courtesy, and professionalism.

Again, IMHO.

FWIW, that is a quote of one of my older posts.

Btw, it helps if you actually have experince shooting sports, before you start charging for it.

time2smile · November 15, 2009

I have password potected my photos for minors...
password on back of card given to parents
Charged about $5 for a 5x7 and $15 for an 8x10
I use the 70-300 vr usually its during good light.

good luck

tjk60 · November 15, 2009

nipprdog wrote:

FWIW, that is a quote of one of my older posts.

Btw, it helps if you actually have experince shooting sports, before you start charging for it.

well said Jim

johng · November 16, 2009

Ah yes, what the OP is talking about is what is called "shooting on spec" (spec = speculation). Here is what you will find:

It's a complete craps shoot.

Here is what you have working against you:

1) Selling via web. People may have great intentions but they have 1000 things going on in their life and another game/event the next day and a good many people never get around to looking at your website. Others might look at the site and if your galleries aren't organized well they'll simply get bored looking through the shots and stop looking. Others simply enjoy just seeing the shots on the computer and that's all they need. Older kids will simply perform screen captures and steel the photos because all they want is something for myspace or facebook - they don't want to print it.

2) The self designated team photographer. This is the parent with DSLR whose payment is the ego boost that people like their photos. Of course people like their photos - everyone likes free. Now, these parents come in varying degrees of skill - some actually very talented. But, the talent level doesn't have to be high for their free photo to trump your $4 photo.

3) Approval. As mentioned you really want team / league approval. That goes a long way in avoiding issues - whether it's a parent from the opposing team or a coach complaining because they're just in a bad mood. You really want to be able to direct them to the league when they have an issue with you being there (and really it's just about them being in a poor mood and taking it out on what they think is an easy target - so simply directing them to the league office is enough to silence them).

4) Possible contract issues - some leagues contract a photographer. That photographer won't be at every game (again like you they're about maximizing their time spent shooting) so just because they're not there doesn't mean there isn't a contract in place. If you want to start making money doing this it's not a great idea to step on the toes of someone who got there first.

5) Knowing who walks the walk vs. who just talks the talk. This is in regards to the parents. Some parents will spend $100+ buying all the photos they can of their kids. Others may just want to buy a single 4x6 - and after they see the shipping charge from smugmug decide it's jut too expensive.

6) You have to follow the money not what you like to shoot. Again you don't always know where the money is. It may not be on the team or even the sport you want to shoot.

7) Last but not least, smugmug automatically files a 1099 on your behalf. So, after smugmug takes their 15% you still get to pay Uncle Sam additional profits. Suddenly 40% of your profits are gone.

I would also like to re-inforce the advice you were given by others - your sports photos had better be very good quality when you START selling. Once a potential customer sees poor photos on your site they're unlikely to ever return.

Good luck. I wish you the best.

j-bo · November 16, 2009

johng wrote:

Others may just want to buy a single 4x6 - and after they see the shipping charge from smugmug decide it's jut too expensive.

7) Last but not least, smugmug automatically files a 1099 on your behalf. So, after smugmug takes their 15% you still get to pay Uncle Sam additional profits. Suddenly 40% of your profits are gone.

Those are just 2 of the many reasons that I decided to hang things up. The small amount of money received went to smugmug, shipping, and the tax man!

If I rejoin the photo business, it will be with my own website, no smugmug, or any other service.

IdahoMotomom · November 16, 2009

Frog Lady wrote:

I use a 100-400 for most of my soccer shots (see my galleries in the link below if you want). It's heavy and I would recommend a monopod, especially if you'll be out shooting for a while. That being said, if you're not careful, it can still be too short. Work on field positioning, particularly if you're shooting a specific player. Remember one of the rules of sports shooting: shoot tight, crop tighter. You want to fill the frame with the player you're shooting as much as possible.

But, before you invest in a 100-400, you might try getting a 1.4 TC (again, especially if you'll be shooting under 10's, and maybe w/ TC, under 12's). But this would work best if your 70-200 is an f/2.8 (and not the f/4 version)

While I was checking out your photos (they're really nice), I looked at your pricing. It looks like you have the smugmug pricing on there. You may want to change that, unless you really are selling your 4x6 prints for .22. Just wanted to let you know.

ian408 · November 17, 2009

j-bo wrote:

Those are just 2 of the many reasons that I decided to hang things up. The small amount of money received went to smugmug, shipping, and the tax man!

If I rejoin the photo business, it will be with my own website, no smugmug, or any other service.

Taking care of billing, collecting the cash and sending you a check is worth something. That they are also taking care of dealing with CC companies, shipping, returns & what ever sales tax, etc. is good--tracking that and submitting sales taxes yourself is a pain. It's something you need to do so whether it's someone else or you; it still needs to get done.

Anybody know what the other services charge as a percentage of sales? If you manage yourself, how much time do you spend on bookkeeping?

StevenSzabo · November 17, 2009

when you actually ad up how much smugmug takes over the course of a year it is a little painful. I wish there was actually a line on the sales page that showed how much money your sales had put in to smugmugs coffers over the course of the year. If I understand it correctly I'm paying them their yearly fee + their default purchase price + 15% of the difference between that and whatever I set my prices at...by my math that ads up to a fair portion of the money over the course of the year...I'm seriously considering TTG for next year. Instant payment, and it's not taking a cut of my sales. Yes it means I have a bill for hosting...but I think in the long run I'm going to end up coming out quite a ways ahead over the course of the year.

Don't get me wrong...I don't make a fortune off of sales...not even close...I think if I was making $20k a year at it I might not feel the pinch as much...but I'm not.

johng · November 17, 2009

ian408 wrote:

Taking care of billing, collecting the cash and sending you a check is worth something. That they are also taking care of dealing with CC companies, shipping, returns & what ever sales tax, etc. is good--tracking that and submitting sales taxes yourself is a pain. It's something you need to do so whether it's someone else or you; it still needs to get done.

Anybody know what the other services charge as a percentage of sales? If you manage yourself, how much time do you spend on bookkeeping?

Ian - I don't fault smugmug for taking 15% plus the $150 per year. I also don't fault them for filing the IRS paperwork. BUT, it's one part of the reason that making money "on the side" for sports work is difficult. People tend to think of the GROSS $$ and forget about what they have to pay out. Suddenly, the $50 made from a game becomes $30 after smugmug and taxes. Combined with the idea that the next game they shoot they make zero sales. Now, they have say 6 hours invested in shooting/processing for $42 gross/$30 net. That doesn't take into account the cost of gear - and sports photography is very gear intensive. Especially when you want to produce photos that are saleable - the old Pentak K2000 with kit lens just isn't going to cut it.

So, smugmug is not evil for doing what they do. It's a fair arrangement. But, not a very good one for people wanting to make a little money on the side shooting sports. The business model just isn't a strong one for that type of thing right now for all the reasons I mentioned in my original post.

Mitchell · November 17, 2009

I'm a little late to this discussion, but I'd like to offer my experience after shooting soccer for the past 5 years.

I've finally come to the realization that there is very little money to be made shooting soccer photos of older kids. While the parents and players enjoy seeing these nice photos on the internet, they rarely buy in any great volume. Certainly not enough to support a photographer.

I truly had an "aha" moment this year as my youngest (4yo) started playing soccer. Naturally, I wanted some photos, so I dropped myself on the ground and took photos of her and her teammates. After posting these photos for the parents to view and purchase, the excitement over the photos began to build at the next game. One mom brought the photos to show everyone. I then got requests to shoot other teams, etc... A very profitable but brief season.

In the end, I've come to the conclusion that the only people buying soccer photos are parents of young children. Perhaps the excitement of seeing these first time players makes the parents want these photos.

I still shoot my older kid's games, but I do it for my own enjoyment. Any sales are just gravy. Next year I'll be sure to make as many of the 4 and 5 year old games as possible.:D

idea of the day

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