Sensors: Capacity vs. Sensitivity?

Twilight Error

Hi all,
I'm beginning to shop for a high end P&S Canon to replace my aging Powershot S50 and I'd like some opnions on the G10 vs the new G11. The G10 is 15Mpixel, the G11 is 10. Does the reduction in raw imaging compensate for the improved sensor? Is 15Mpixel simply overkill for someone used to 5? I'm after the P&S over an SLR for a couple reasons: size, the availability of waterproof housings, ease of use, cost... I don't need an SLR and fear I'd end up spending a small fortune on glass I just don't use. If the camera isn't handy for taking a quick shot, then I likely won't take the shot. I don't want one of the smaller Powershot cameras, as I'd like something with the better optics of the G/S series.

Any help you guys can provide is appreciated,
Mary

EDIT: Corrected model names in the opening sentence from D10/11 to G10/11

cmason

Among the biggest differences between P&S and dSLR, is the physical size of the sensor. A dSLR sensor is very much larger than a P&S, and generally will produce superior images and lower noise.

With small sensors, especially small sensors with high megapixel count, you run into issues of noise, since the individual 'pixels' are incredibly small on a high megapixel P&S. It appears that the G10 went over this 'limit' and Canon pulled back a bit with the G11. In this case, I suppose they chose performance over marketing. The new S90 is similar, though it appears the optics and smaller lens is causing some issues in RAW format.

ziggy53

Twilight Error wrote:

Hi all,
I'm beginning to shop for a high end P&S Canon to replace my aging Powershot S50 and I'd like some opnions on the D10 vs the new D11. The G10 is 15Mpixel, the G11 is 10. Does the reduction in raw imaging compensate for the improved sensor? Is 15Mpixel simply overkill for someone used to 5? I'm after the P&S over an SLR for a couple reasons: size, the availability of waterproof housings, ease of use, cost... I don't need an SLR and fear I'd end up spending a small fortune on glass I just don't use. If the camera isn't handy for taking a quick shot, then I likely won't take the shot. I don't want one of the smaller Powershot cameras, as I'd like something with the better optics of the G/S series.

Any help you guys can provide is appreciated,
Mary

Mary, welcome to the Digital Grin.

Although "megapixels" is a measure of an image, it is not necessarily a measure of image quality. As CMason describes, many things combine to create a quality image.

If you try to cram too many pixels into a given sensor size you risk either bettering the optics, or you don't have the pixel size to accurately measure the light falling onto that pixel. Noise is also a function per unit of imager size, so more pixels can simply expose more noise, masking scene detail.

Both the Canon G10 and G11 provide excellent image quality up to an 8" x 10" in good light. Neither are particularly good in available light, but both provide a hotshoe and allow an external flash. An external flash is often a very good way to retain image quality in poor available light. Off-camera flash and modified flash can be even better.

You mention the size and convenience of the camera as primary considerations, but the ability of the camera to "respond" to your request is very much important too. If the camera has too much "lag" between when you start the exposure and the time the camera takes the exposure, the moment you crave can be lost.

I suggest that the best way to shop for a digicam is to go to a store which has a multitude of cameras to test, and then make a partial decision based on how you and the cameras in question work together. Then, armed with that experience, you can explore the cameras further and individually, here and elsewhere on the Internet.

Twilight Error

cmason wrote:

Among the biggest differences between P&S and dSLR, is the physical size of the sensor. A dSLR sensor is very much larger than a P&S, and generally will produce superior images and lower noise.

With small sensors, especially small sensors with high megapixel count, you run into issues of noise, since the individual 'pixels' are incredibly small on a high megapixel P&S. It appears that the G10 went over this 'limit' and Canon pulled back a bit with the G11. In this case, I suppose they chose performance over marketing. The new S90 is similar, though it appears the optics and smaller lens is causing some issues in RAW format.

That makes a lot of sense, thanks.

Twilight Error

ziggy53 wrote:

Mary, welcome to the Digital Grin.

Although "megapixels" is a measure of an image, it is not necessarily a measure of image quality. As CMason describes, many things combine to create a quality image.

If you try to cram too many pixels into a given sensor size you risk either bettering the optics, or you don't have the pixel size to accurately measure the light falling onto that pixel. Noise is also a function per unit of imager size, so more pixels can simply expose more noise, masking scene detail.

Both the Canon G10 and G11 provide excellent image quality up to an 8" x 10" in good light. Neither are particularly good in available light, but both provide a hotshoe and allow an external flash. An external flash is often a very good way to retain image quality in poor available light. Off-camera flash and modified flash can be even better.

You mention the size and convenience of the camera as primary considerations, but the ability of the camera to "respond" to your request is very much important too. If the camera has too much "lag" between when you start the exposure and the time the camera takes the exposure, the moment you crave can be lost.

I suggest that the best way to shop for a digicam is to go to a store which has a multitude of cameras to test, and then make a partial decision based on how you and the cameras in question work together. Then, armed with that experience, you can explore the cameras further and individually, here and elsewhere on the Internet.

Physical shopping is definitely part of the plan, but first I need some background so when the salesdrone is trying to talk me into something I don't want, I know enough to avoid it. DGrin is the logical first stop on the shopping trip.

ziggy53

Twilight Error wrote:

Physical shopping is definitely part of the plan, but first I need some background so when the salesdrone is trying to talk me into something I don't want, I know enough to avoid it. DGrin is the logical first stop on the shopping trip.

My mindset, when I enter a camera store, is that I will not purchase at that time. If the salesman gets too pushy, I clue them in to that reality. That has saved me from a lot of hasty decisions.

A camera is a fairly major purchase so don't feel rushed into the decision.

You also mentioned underwater use. Is that for snorkel or scuba depths?

cmason

ziggy53 wrote:

You mention the size and convenience of the camera as primary considerations, but the ability of the camera to "respond" to your request is very much important too. If the camera has too much "lag" between when you start the exposure and the time the camera takes the exposure, the moment you crave can be lost.

This point of Ziggy's is what causes me to travel with my dSLR rather than a P&S. I have missed so many shots waiting for the shutter to activate after I press the button that I have nearly tossed my SD800 as far as I can throw it. Certainly a dSLR is more bulky, but when you press the shutter button, it fires. In fact, my 40D fires 3 or 4 times before I can remove my finger often.

One consideration, when you go shopping, is to look at the Olympus dSLR line, which is tiny in comparision to most other dSLRs. Try out a E-420 to see what I mean.

Twilight Error

ziggy53 wrote:

My mindset, when I enter a camera store, is that I will not purchase at that time. If the salesman gets too pushy, I clue them in to that reality. That has saved me from a lot of hasty decisions.

A camera is a fairly major purchase so don't feel rushed into the decision.

You also mentioned underwater use. Is that for snorkel or scuba depths?

Snorkel for now, possibly shallow scuba, but there just isn't much to see in the murky water off New England. Mostly, I want the waterproof option for when I'm kayaking, canoeing, hiking, climbing and on my motorcycle. I gave a serious look at the Ryobi digital camera being sold at Home Depot, it is waterproof to a meter and ruggedized. The downside to that camera is I cannot find out who makes the actual camera Ryobi puts its name on.

Twilight Error

cmason wrote:

This point of Ziggy's is what causes me to travel with my dSLR rather than a P&S. I have missed so many shots waiting for the shutter to activate after I press the button that I have nearly tossed my SD800 as far as I can throw it. Certainly a dSLR is more bulky, but when you press the shutter button, it fires. In fact, my 40D fires 3 or 4 times before I can remove my finger often.

One consideration, when you go shopping, is to look at the Olympus dSLR line, which is tiny in comparision to most other dSLRs. Try out a E-420 to see what I mean.

Shutter lag is hugely annoying, but not as annoying as digging a huge camera out of a tankbag or backpack. One of the comments I noticed about the G10 was an unusually long shutter lag. The G11 has no such commentary.

If I'd the budget, I would have a hard time not buying one of each. Unfortunately I don't and I can't so I have to compromise.

ziggy53

Twilight Error wrote:

Snorkel for now, possibly shallow scuba, but there just isn't much to see in the murky water off New England. Mostly, I want the waterproof option for when I'm kayaking, canoeing, hiking, climbing and on my motorcycle. I gave a serious look at the Ryobi digital camera being sold at Home Depot, it is waterproof to a meter and ruggedized. The downside to that camera is I cannot find out who makes the actual camera Ryobi puts its name on.

Have you seen this review?

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/Q209waterproofgroup/

Twilight Error

ziggy53 wrote:

Have you seen this review?

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/Q209waterproofgroup/

THANKS!

Twilight Error

Wow. I really need to go to a store and fondle some hardware. I never knew the D10 existed, it appears to be exactly what I'm looking for... My leader is still the G11 with the waterproof housing though.

Jeremy Winterberg

At my work (Camera Store/Mini Photo Lab) we had a few of the Fuji FinPix Z33WP's and I must say thats one heck of a camera. If you're looking for underwater I'd get that.

Shutter lag is going to be there in a PnS no matter what. To avoid that get an entry level DSLR (canon XT(i) or XS(i); Nikon D40/50/60), it wont break the bank, and you'll get the results you want, however you loose the easy waterproofing.

We also had a G10... Its nice, We've had 30x40's printed from it. And they look just as good as a DSLR, however you still have the shutter lag which leaves room for error.

Twilight Error

Jeremy Winterberg wrote:

At my work (Camera Store/Mini Photo Lab) we had a few of the Fuji FinPix Z33WP's and I must say thats one heck of a camera. If you're looking for underwater I'd get that.

Shutter lag is going to be there in a PnS no matter what. To avoid that get an entry level DSLR (canon XT(i) or XS(i); Nikon D40/50/60), it wont break the bank, and you'll get the results you want, however you loose the easy waterproofing.

We also had a G10... Its nice, We've had 30x40's printed from it. And they look just as good as a DSLR, however you still have the shutter lag which leaves room for error.

I lean towards Canon because every camera I've owned has been a Canon (with the exception of a lonely Minolta in the late 80s) and I've been extremely happy with them. The S50 I've got now is going on 5 years old, its a veritable dinosaur among digital cameras and it still takes nice pictures. Fuji also makes a good camera, except my spouse's family have worked for Kodak for generations and to them Fuji is THE four letter f-word (yes, I know its a silly reason, but there you go).
Does anyone know why the shutter lag exists with a P&S, while it does not with an SLR? I should think the electronics can be programmed to record the current image on the sensor the moment the button is pushed, regardless of the shutter actuation mechanism.

Grainbelt

Twilight Error wrote:

Does anyone know why the shutter lag exists with a P&S, while it does not with an SLR? I should think the electronics can be programmed to record the current image on the sensor the moment the button is pushed, regardless of the shutter actuation mechanism.

There are a number of decisions to be made by the camera when you press the shutter - focus, metering, etc. You can reduce lag by taking it out of auto mode and setting as many things as possible manually. Almost all cameras will focus with a half-depressed shutter button, then capture at full pressure. I've been able to get lag time down to reasonable levels by shooting in program mode with most things set manually, even with my ancient Olympus D600.

Twilight Error

Grainbelt wrote:

There are a number of decisions to be made by the camera when you press the shutter - focus, metering, etc. You can reduce lag by taking it out of auto mode and setting as many things as possible manually. Almost all cameras will focus with a half-depressed shutter button, then capture at full pressure. I've been able to get lag time down to reasonable levels by shooting in program mode with most things set manually, even with my ancient Olympus D600.

I see.

I've really only ever played with the manual settings for unusual tasks, like photographing bug parts through a microscope or trying to get a halfway decent picture of our fish. I'm at just the beginning stages of being a photography geek and I'd like a camera that won't confound the heck out of me, yet have enough in the way of options to hold my interest in it for a couple more years. And did I mention that its got to be waterproof/waterproofable, have an ATM that spits out gold coins, darn my socks and connect to the internets through a satellite connection?

I'm not asking for too much, am I?

Oh yeah, Hi Grainbelt! I didn't expect to see any ADVers around here.

Grainbelt

Twilight Error wrote:

I'm at just the beginning stages of being a photography geek and I'd like a camera that won't confound the heck out of me, yet have enough in the way of options to hold my interest in it for a couple more years.

Oh yeah, Hi Grainbelt! I didn't expect to see any ADVers around here.

The settings I'm referring to are primarily ISO, white balance, and flash. Those settings are really easy to access on any camera. If you set those yourself, and focus prior to shooting, you should get fairly consistent behavior from the camera.

I understand the Canon familiarity - I'd encourage you to look at Panasonic as well, as they tend to have wider lenses than Canon, which is nice for those dramatic lanscape shots when you're out riding. I think the waterproof camera test linked earlier had the Panasonic TS1 in it, worth lookign at.

jmphotocraft

If the contest is G10 vs G11, then G11 for the win, hands down.

But you should also check out the Panasonic GF1, it bridges the gap between p&s and slr.