Lighting Gear Question + Answer
Nikolai
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This question has been asked in a different forum, but I decided to put a reply in a more appropriate one...
While there was certain advancements in a continuous lighting recently, and some of it is not as "hot" as it used to be, it's a totally different beast from strobes. If you do plan to engage in video, too - then, by all means, this probably would be the right choice. Otherwise I don't think a continuous lighting will provide you with the same versatility and the same "bang for the buck" (ROI!) as would the strobes.
And yes, I am aware of the fact that some well known photographers are using the continuous "light walls" and such, but:
a) these are more like exceptions
b) the cost of those light walls far exceeds the cost of a very nice strobe-based setups.
The difference in handling/selecting/operating/modifying continuous lights VS strobes is huge, so I cannot proceed with the further comments until I know for sure which path you choose.
Also check this recent thread on Litepanels: http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=150793
anonymouscuban wrote:I've been researching some lighting equipment and am cosidering a 3 point light setup. I am thinking of going with a couple continuous lights, a couple umbrellas, and a background stand. I would use my speedlight as the 3rd light in this setup. Is this a good start?
There are tons of manufacturers so I am a bit confused as to which to go with so any help here would be appreciated. I am also confused as to what wattage to go with... is more better since I am then not limited to amount of light and can always make adjustments for less light?
While there was certain advancements in a continuous lighting recently, and some of it is not as "hot" as it used to be, it's a totally different beast from strobes. If you do plan to engage in video, too - then, by all means, this probably would be the right choice. Otherwise I don't think a continuous lighting will provide you with the same versatility and the same "bang for the buck" (ROI!) as would the strobes.
And yes, I am aware of the fact that some well known photographers are using the continuous "light walls" and such, but:
a) these are more like exceptions
b) the cost of those light walls far exceeds the cost of a very nice strobe-based setups.
The difference in handling/selecting/operating/modifying continuous lights VS strobes is huge, so I cannot proceed with the further comments until I know for sure which path you choose.
Also check this recent thread on Litepanels: http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=150793
"May the f/stop be with you!"
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Again, thank you for you help so far. And thank you for reposting my thread in the appropriate forum.
Let me give you a bit more information. I don't plan on shooting video. Not at all interested in going down that path. I also don't want to spend money on something now, that won't be scalable as my skills and interests in portrait photography evolve. However, I also can't spend thousands of dollars up front on a complete lighting setup.
As I mentioned in my other thread, I am a complete noob when it comes to shooting people in a "controlled" environment. I've read and believe I under some of the basic principles of lighting... broad, butterfly, the different positions of light, the practicle difference between softboxes, umbrellas, etc. However, the only thing I own today as far as lighting is an SB-600 flash.
I've practiced quite a bit and read quite a bit about shooting with Nikon's TTL system and although I have not mastered it, I do understand how to use it and can get some decent shots whether it be fill or main light. So with that in mind, what would you recommend I add next to my arsenal? Should I maybe invest in anothe speedlight, maybe the SB-900? That would give me two lights. I would assume I should also buy some light stands to be able to mount them and maybe an umbrella and a soft box? Going this route would give me portability, no? That would be nice since I may want to eventually venture out into the world to shoot.
Again, thank you for your advice so far and I do welcome the input from others as well.
- Alex
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from what I hear, Nikon CLS is an excellent choice, so it's a relatively safe route fro a Nikon guy. It will give you great portability and a reasonaly easy way to control several lights without going to extreme expenses like PW, etc.
Having said that, I think this is a dead end from a studio perspective and it will eventually (and much faster than you think) get in a way of your studio photography should you choose this path. It will let you work some simple basic cases, but, just like one quickly realizes why a kit lens is so cheap and why any good one cost more than a grand, you will realize that you are limited in many directions.
Let me be absolutely clear: you *can* do it with CLS. Joe McNally does wonders with them (albeit, you should see his complete set
No modeling lights, no ability to hold large modifiers (and rather creepled ability to use ANY modifier in general), a realtively low per-unit power, IR-based wireless (i.e. requiring a line of sight) - all those and many others will start biting you as soon as you start getting more into the game.
I'm sure there will be a great amount of posts proving me wrong. So be it. My opinion: if you wanna produce high quality studio images, you need high quality studio gear. Speedlights are great for what they are (i.e. helping on location, dealing with party candids and red carpet, i.e. anywhere where mobility is a #1 requirement), but studio lights they are not.
My friend, who does beach/bikini photography almost exclusively, uses PW triggered AB1600, VagabondII power brick and 4 ft round softbox. You'd think this is a case where a speedlight would be perfect. But there is a "slight" difference in the results.
Hope this would give you some food for thoughts...
One of the difficulties I had in the shoot I posted was the issue of not having a modeling light. I had to fire, chimp, adjust, fire. I guess that also comes with my noobness but I have to imagine that a modeling light would make things a lot easier even for a pro. This is why my first inclination was to think of continuous lighting.
Let's say I purchased one AB-1600 to start, could I use my SB-600 as a fill? Would my SB-600 trigger the AB-1600 or would I use the other way around? Is there another Flash Unit brand that maybe cheaper than the AB's but still a good value?
Guess I have to research more.
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Although I have not personally used alien bees, I have done my fair share of research...
The AB1600 (or any of them for that matter) include a slave sensor built in, so your sb-600 would trigger it. However this is not always 100% reliable, especially if you were to take it outdoors.
You cannot get "batteries" for them, but Paul C. Buff does have the Vegabond II that Nikolai mentioned. Its I believe $250'ish? don't quote me on that. But its like a portable power outlet. You just get a power strip and you can plug in as many lights as you need. (Although the more you plug into one the less you can shoot - drains the battery faster)
I recommend getting the AB800 and vegabond to start out. Get some wireless transmitters (I use the Cactus v4's its like $40 for a kit). Use your sb-600 as fill or use a reflector as fill.
And then save up and get an AB1600 when you feel like you need more and use the AB800 as fill and the sb600 as a hairlight/bg light.. then add more, etc...
I think if you went the SB900 route you wouldn't be satisfied in the long run like Nikolai stated. Its a dead end to strobist martyrdom.
If you had a SB800 or 900 and shot in the commander mode suig the pop up flash as the commander then you could produce some really awesome results from the hotshoe flashes........
Since I grew up using a handheld flash incident light meter I have no probs shooting with flash units that do not have a modeling light........and since coming back to Nikon and shooting some play around photos with my SB900 as close as a foot from subject with the stofen styled diffuser and the pop up flash set as commander but no out put I was absolutely amazed at the results.....no burned out pics and that was shooting in aperture priority .....camera was approx 18 inches from sugject.......at 479/ SB900 it is hard to convince myself that buying several would be a fantastic idea to replace my studio flash units.....but when I can get them to talk to each other that is another story.....now if nikon would just make a RF transmitter and reciever for them that would communicate just as they do now....that would be great............
Other option I am looking at is a bushel of Vivitar 285HV's (5-10){89.99 each} I already have Wireless 16 channel triggers and a lightmeter so it just means that I would have to adjust each flash one at a time.....more time consuming but will work like a charm.............
AB can be optically triggered, that's true. However, keep in mind that modern TTL cameras and their speedlites often use double flashing - first to figure out the exposure, second the real one. Your AB (or any other opticallly triggered strobe for that matter) will catch the first one and may NOT charge fast enough for the real one. In any case, you'll be flashing it twice as many, thus exhausting its resource.
You can use all sorts of radio triggers, from very cheap to rather expensive. As with many things, you get what you paid for.
AB (and other studio stobes) do not use batteries, they feed on AC. So if you're indoors, this is (typically) not a problem, outdoors - vagabond, or some other power brick (inverter + big battery) that can produce decent amount of AC juice.
What's confusing me most right now is watts/sec... how much do I need? I presume it all depends on what and where I will be shooting. Let's say to start, I would be shooting portraits of maybe one or two people indoors. In small settings like a 12 x 15 room or so. How much power do I really need?
BTW, so far this is all been very helpful and I appreciate your patience in answering my questions.
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You can start with a small wattage, but I think it would be a mistake. I'd recommend something around 600/800 watt (e.g. ProFoto 600, AB800, etc.) You can dial them down, and you do want to do that - strobes at max power tend to recycle and become unstable (uneven output), while dialed down they can go relatively non-stop. Another thing - your modifiers would often steal a stop or two.
Rule of thumb: if you have to much power, you can deal with it, but if you don't have enough - you're done for good.
Having more light than you need makes sense. For many years, I used to raise live corals and it was the same concept. You always setup your lighting system with as much light as your budget could afford since you could dial it down but you could increases if you wanted to venture into corals that demand more light.
I just checked out ebay and there are few AB800 and White Lightning 1600 for sale that I am now watching. I may pick one up if they auction at a good price, if not, I will buy new.
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http://www.scantips.com/lights/vs.html
The author seems a little biased towards Nikon's system but for me, it actually cleared things up a bit more and made me lean more towards studio flash over speedlights.
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At first I was told at first to go with small inexpensive light until I learned more, by local camera store owners.....that is absolutely wrong......
Sit down and ask yourself what do I want to be shooting in 6 months, a year.....5yrs ..... 10yrs.......
Am I going to stick with a 12 x 15 studio and only shoot small family portraits??? Do I want to have the ability to do a commercial shoot requiring more light than my speedlight produces.........
Can I squeeze enuff juice from the lemons to get 4 AB1600 or White lightning 3200's.......
My mentor gave me the soundest advice......Go one step up from what you think you can afford and buy at least 4 at a time.....because once the work starts coming in you're going to need more lights real fast and you're going to get to the burnout point real quick with 1 or 2 small flash units.......I currently have 5 AC strobes, 1 speedlight (Nikon SB900) and 2 sunpak 622 handle mount flashes and 5 wireless RF flash triggers.......
I am looking at expanding my speedlight / handlemount flashes for easier location work ......{speedlight and handle mount flashes use much smaller battery packs than studio flash units....Vagabond style power packs can weigh in at an easy 20+lbs}..........Since I have found speedlight adapters that allow 3 flashes at a time to shoot into 1 modifier (umbrella or softbox) I am looking real hard at the Vivitar 285HV flashes as they can be found for well under $100 each....they are a manual flash, but so are studio flashes and it will only take a little time before you really do not need the modeling light of the studio flash....you'll know where the light is going to hit and shadows will be..........
I do not think he is actually biased.....but speakes from his experience of equipment he uses......I am very glad to see him at least talking Handheld incident meters.....so many people that did not come up from film cameras, try to argue that histogram reading is the way to go and as the author pointed out that is fine with one light source but as light starts coming from more than 1 source the need for a handheld meter magnifies greatly......
very good article...........
+1
I was given similar advice (with the exception of 4 factor, lol)
I now have 8 studio strobes, tons of modifiers, 6 PW units, 2 Sunpacks and one 580EX2 speedlite (with ST-E2), which I only use for quick-and-dirty work, like party candids.
Needless to say, if I had started with "small cheap" kits all that stuff would be still sitting in my garage (lights are very hard to sell), so I would pay much more in the end compared to what I actually did.
As Art said: sit down, make a roadmap and follow it with the good, solid equipment you won't outgrow in the next 2-5 years. No need to buy everything at once, but buying a good gear that is a part of the future cohesive set is imperative.
My immediate plans are to convert an extra bedroom into a studio. I have decided to go the route of studio flash units. Speedlights just don't make sense to me since for the cost of one SB-900, a lightstand, bracket and umbrella, I can get 2 studio strobes, light stand and umbrellas. That will give me a three light system if I include my existing speedlight. I also like the fact that the studio strobes will give me some added power in case I decide I want to take to the outdoors to shoot. Additionally, I have been reading more on light modifiers which are virtually limitless when it comes to studio lights.
The Nikon TTL system is nice. But the more I read, the more I am understanding that manual is the way to go in a studio setting. If I am not going to be using TTL in the "studio", then why shell out the cash for a feature I won't be using?
So now it's a matter of deciding on a setup. Currently, I am looking at two systems: Alien Bees and Elinchrom
For the Alien Bees, I am thinking of going with an AB400 and an AB800 kit or should I get both of the same light? If so, which of the two?
For the Elinchrom, I was looking at the two light kit at B&H that comes with 2 x D-Lite4 which are 400 w/s lights.
I feel comfortable spending about $750 or there abouts on this initial purchase. Is there any other setups I should consider in this price range?
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You would need to get wireless transmitters, but you could use the included 15' sync cord for now. Or you can pick up those 16 channel wireless transmitters that Art always raves about. I think they're like $30 each?
That is like $40 per set of 3 receivers and 1 transmitter......
However, if you decide to go with AB400 I'll be happy to sell you two very gently used ones (yellow cases, in a very good condition:-)