Can someone help me decide what camera I need?

MnemosyneMnemosyne Registered Users Posts: 251 Major grins
edited November 30, 2009 in Video
There's way too many things to decide.

I know I want HD. That's a gimme.

But I don't really know what else I should consider beyond that.

I know people say digital is getting up there now, but is it up there enough at this point? Because having digital will save money on the cost of videotape. But if digital is the way to go, CMOS, CCD Super HAD CCD, Magical CMOS CCD Hybrid. I mean, which one is better?

But what about bells and whistles. Audio control, video controls blah blah blah.

Can anyone give me some good suggestions and what to think about?
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Comments

  • THX1965THX1965 Registered Users Posts: 108 Major grins
    edited November 24, 2009
    I think the most important question is not necessarily the sensor one but - what will you be using the camera for? Event videography? Documentaries? Feature shorts? Stock videography? Sports? Children? Lots of low light situations? How important is sound? Will you be working alone or with an assistant? How much are you willing to spend? etc., etc.

    If you can give us a list of how your future camera should fit into your video workflow, then it shouldn't be too hard to narrow down your choice to a few.

    --- Markus ---
  • MnemosyneMnemosyne Registered Users Posts: 251 Major grins
    edited November 25, 2009
    I'm looking to do documentaries. Stories, profiles, features, etc. But documentaries would probably be the best description of what I want to do with it.

    Audio isn't a priority because I would plan on buying a wireless mic rig. Just as long as it can record ambient at a decent level, I'm satisfied.

    Not sure how much low light I'll intentionally be doing.

    I'll probably be working alone for the most part, unless I can find some funding for projects.

    Not sure how much I want to spend. If money wasn't an option, I'd just go for the Red One cameras. But definitely more than those little handicams.
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  • THX1965THX1965 Registered Users Posts: 108 Major grins
    edited November 25, 2009
    Mnemosyne wrote:
    I'm looking to do documentaries. Stories, profiles, features, etc. But documentaries would probably be the best description of what I want to do with it.

    Audio isn't a priority because I would plan on buying a wireless mic rig. Just as long as it can record ambient at a decent level, I'm satisfied.

    Not sure how much low light I'll intentionally be doing.

    I'll probably be working alone for the most part, unless I can find some funding for projects.

    Not sure how much I want to spend. If money wasn't an option, I'd just go for the Red One cameras. But definitely more than those little handicams.


    It really comes down to personal preference. I find HD video on DSLRs fascinating and if you do it right, you can get HD images out of them that rival footage from the Red One - at least as far as the Canon 5D or 7D are concerned. As you know, these cameras need to be adapted and expanded to really be usable in a more professional video/film environment. But it can be done and there is whole community of filmmakers out there doing just that. - I just got a 7D myself for that very reason.

    Here is an amazing test that a digital post production house here in L.A. has done with a Red One, a 7D and a 5D. I have looked at the footage a few times, I cannot tell the difference between the 3 cameras.

    <object width="800" height="450"><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="movie" value="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=7559839&server=vimeo.com&show_title=1&show_byline=0&show_portrait=0&color=00ADEF&fullscreen=1&quot; /><embed src="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=7559839&server=vimeo.com&show_title=1&show_byline=0&show_portrait=0&color=00ADEF&fullscreen=1&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="800" height="450"></embed></object>
  • MnemosyneMnemosyne Registered Users Posts: 251 Major grins
    edited November 25, 2009
    I would kind of prefer to not have to modify it to do movies/video. And I already have 3 photo cameras.
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  • THX1965THX1965 Registered Users Posts: 108 Major grins
    edited November 25, 2009
    Mnemosyne wrote:
    I would kind of prefer to not have to modify it to do movies/video. And I already have 3 photo cameras.

    Do you have a 5D or a 7D already? You don't have to "modify" either camera. Both cameras take beautiful 1080p video out of the box. Some people find the LCD monitor on both cameras not big enough to get the focus right 100% of the time while filming with an open lens. A Zacuto Z-Finder should take care of that problem http://store.zacuto.com/Z-Finder.html. Some people prefer to operate these cameras from a shoulder rig. Those are the kinds of add-ons that I meant. But you're facing similar choices with any (semi-professional) camcorder, only you will be stuck with the zoom lens that's on that camera and the sensor will be smaller - so a film-look with shallow depth of filed for example is much harder to achieve.

    To get decent sound into the 5D or 7D you simply plug in a camcorder mic. If you want the quality to be better (since both cameras have noisy pre-amps like most camcorders on the market do) you simply add a low noise juicedlink pre-amp to your 5D/7D setup for example http://www.juicedlink.com/ - which will not only give you much higher quality audio, but also XLR inputs and phantom power (if you go for that model) so your microphones can operate without an extra battery.

    For any photographer who already owns a lot of nice lenses, these Canon video DSLRs make a lot of sense in my opinion.
  • MnemosyneMnemosyne Registered Users Posts: 251 Major grins
    edited November 26, 2009
    That sounds like a lot of unnecessary things to buy, just to turn it into a camera.
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  • THX1965THX1965 Registered Users Posts: 108 Major grins
    edited November 26, 2009
    Mnemosyne wrote:
    That sounds like a lot of unnecessary things to buy, just to turn it into a camera.

    As I said - you don't need any of that. It's totally up to you. Shooting moving pictures is very different from taking stills. If you think a a shoulder rig is unnecessary, well then you either have an extremely steady hand or you're just fine working from a tri or monopod.

    If you want simplicity, then buy a prosumer camcorder with good image stabilization and be done with it. But in my opinion - no matter which way you end up going - shooting video with sound can be quite a bit more complex than still photography. In the end you always need some extra equipment to get the job done in a more professional way - regardless if you go with a HD capable DSLR or an HD camcorder.
  • waygard33waygard33 Registered Users Posts: 104 Major grins
    edited November 26, 2009
    THX1965 wrote:
    Do you have a 5D or a 7D already? You don't have to "modify" either camera. Both cameras take beautiful 1080p video out of the box. Some people find the LCD monitor on both cameras not big enough to get the focus right 100% of the time while filming with an open lens. A Zacuto Z-Finder should take care of that problem http://store.zacuto.com/Z-Finder.html. Some people prefer to operate these cameras from a shoulder rig. Those are the kinds of add-ons that I meant. But you're facing similar choices with any (semi-professional) camcorder, only you will be stuck with the zoom lens that's on that camera and the sensor will be smaller - so a film-look with shallow depth of filed for example is much harder to achieve.

    To get decent sound into the 5D or 7D you simply plug in a camcorder mic. If you want the quality to be better (since both cameras have noisy pre-amps like most camcorders on the market do) you simply add a low noise juicedlink pre-amp to your 5D/7D setup for example http://www.juicedlink.com/ - which will not only give you much higher quality audio, but also XLR inputs and phantom power (if you go for that model) so your microphones can operate without an extra battery.

    For any photographer who already owns a lot of nice lenses, these Canon video DSLRs make a lot of sense in my opinion.

    I have a 7D and am very interested in the video capabilities. I'm learning a lot from this and other threads. Thank you for the information. Keep it coming...thumb.gif

    Wayne G
  • MnemosyneMnemosyne Registered Users Posts: 251 Major grins
    edited November 26, 2009
    I'm well aware of the capabilities and requirements of audio with cameras. I took 2 semesters of multimedia classes while back at school, and worked with people for 2 years on video while I was an editor at the paper.

    I'm not Warren Miller, but I just prefer the tech that's been around for decades, as opposed to the one that just came out this year.

    I'm weird like that.

    I'm just trying to figure out what I should look for and consider when looking for a video camera.
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  • THX1965THX1965 Registered Users Posts: 108 Major grins
    edited November 26, 2009
    Mnemosyne wrote:
    I'm well aware of the capabilities and requirements of audio with cameras. I took 2 semesters of multimedia classes while back at school, and worked with people for 2 years on video while I was an editor at the paper.

    I'm not Warren Miller, but I just prefer the tech that's been around for decades, as opposed to the one that just came out this year.

    I'm weird like that.

    I'm just trying to figure out what I should look for and consider when looking for a video camera.

    There is nothing wrong with that.

    I'd take a good look at the new Panasonic AVCCAM camcorders. I have heard good things about them and they are quite affordable for what they offer. http://www.panasonic.com/business/provideo/avchd-home.asp

    They are full 1080p camcorders that record on SD cards. How good the AVCHD compression (which they use) is, I don't know. Consumer camcorders with AVCHD tend to have problems with fast motion (which leads to compression artifacts). But these camcorders are part of Panasonic's pro-line, so I'd assume they offer a higher data rate.

    When it comes to editing AVCHD footage, I only know the Mac side. All these compressed formats have to be converted into a more edit-friendly lossless format, which is not a problem with a software like Final Cut Pro. Even iMovie, which comes free with every Mac, can do it. It just takes a bit of time, depending on the power of your computer.

    Hope that helps to get you started.
  • THX1965THX1965 Registered Users Posts: 108 Major grins
    edited November 26, 2009
    waygard33 wrote:
    I have a 7D and am very interested in the video capabilities. I'm learning a lot from this and other threads. Thank you for the information. Keep it coming...thumb.gif

    Wayne G

    I am glad you're finding this helpful, Wayne. By the way, IS lenses do make quite a bit of difference when shooting video with these cameras. There are certain people out there on the web who'd say fast prime lenses are the most important thing for video. But unless you shoot everything from a tripod or a steadycam, a fast enough lens with image stabilization really helps you take the edge off of some of the hand held jitter. And video is all about movement in front and with the camera, isn't it?

    --- Markus ---
  • MnemosyneMnemosyne Registered Users Posts: 251 Major grins
    edited November 26, 2009
    Yeah, I have 2 macs, and I'm hoping I can work and save up for that new Imac iloveyou.gif

    This is why I was still concerned about digital versus tape. I don't want to convert to a lossless, or convert to anything, before I start my editing. That just is a ridiculous idea to me. And you mentioned that it gets artifacty at fast motion, that right there sounds like a deal breaker to me.
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  • THX1965THX1965 Registered Users Posts: 108 Major grins
    edited November 27, 2009
    Mnemosyne wrote:
    Yeah, I have 2 macs, and I'm hoping I can work and save up for that new Imac iloveyou.gif

    This is why I was still concerned about digital versus tape. I don't want to convert to a lossless, or convert to anything, before I start my editing. That just is a ridiculous idea to me. And you mentioned that it gets artifacty at fast motion, that right there sounds like a deal breaker to me.

    If converting compressed HD digital footage to a lossless editing format sounds "ridiculous" to you, then I'd suggest you start getting realistic about what you can and what you are willing to do with your HD plans. Doing some basic homework about various HD formats and what it takes to edit them on a Mac or PC also wouldn't hurt. (You think Red One footage can be edited natively on any computer? Think again...)

    But seriously - and I am saying this to help you - the only HD format you can edit natively on an older iMac or MacBook/Pro (it should be an IntelMac though) is HDV. Get yourself an inexpensive but excellent Canon HV40 HDV camcorder (it's one of the best HD consumer camcorders on the market right now) along with at least a copy of Final Cut Express if not the whole Final Cut Studio suite. Learn how to shoot and edit HD video and you'll find out that even that wide spread tape-based consumer HD format is a lot more demanding than regular standard defintion DV NTSC video as far as computer hardware is concerned.

    But in the end it's about what you shoot and how you present it - and not what you shoot it with. If you're able to capture compelling and emotional moments, you can use a little Flip pocket camcorder and people will watch it.
  • MnemosyneMnemosyne Registered Users Posts: 251 Major grins
    edited November 27, 2009
    I have Final Cut Studio already. I use it to make my slideshows. I cut my audio, soundtracks and FX in garage band, and then build off those typically.

    And maybe ridiculous was the wrong choice of words. I just want to limit the amount of loss, as much as I can.
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  • MnemosyneMnemosyne Registered Users Posts: 251 Major grins
    edited November 28, 2009
    Ok, if I was going to consider the SLR route for video, which one should I consider? The 7D or the 5D?

    I already have an XTi, 40D, and a 1Ds MkII. I have plenty of lenses. But my main concern is the audio issue. I plan on doing documentaries, so audio from interviews is important. Granted, I have the H2 Zoon Audio Recorder, and even with the 10/20 dollar mics it did a great job. I could just record separately and synch them up in FCS.
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  • THX1965THX1965 Registered Users Posts: 108 Major grins
    edited November 29, 2009
    Mnemosyne wrote:
    Ok, if I was going to consider the SLR route for video, which one should I consider? The 7D or the 5D?

    I already have an XTi, 40D, and a 1Ds MkII. I have plenty of lenses. But my main concern is the audio issue. I plan on doing documentaries, so audio from interviews is important. Granted, I have the H2 Zoon Audio Recorder, and even with the 10/20 dollar mics it did a great job. I could just record separately and synch them up in FCS.

    The 7D has 29.97 fps & 23.98 fps 1080p HD video - the 5D will get this capability in about half a year through a firmware update. Right now with its strange 30 fps frame rate (full 30 frames not the video-friendly 29.97 we need for editing), the 5D makes editing very cumbersome. So, I'd say, get a 7D - not only is it much cheaper, it also has a dedicated video start/stop button that's very well placed next to the viewfinder. The 5D's video recording mode must be started through the "set button", which is awkward to reach when hand-holding the camera. Even the firmware upgrade next year won't fix that.
    The only advantage that the 5D has is the fact that it's a bit less noisy at higher ISO settings due to its larger sensor. There are quite a few ISO comparison tests between the 5D and the 7D out there on the web. No matter what, I'd say you want as fast a lens as you can afford.

    I don't think audio is a problem. Take another look at this website http://www.juicedlink.com/ They do an outstanding job in explaining how to get cleaner audio into camcorders and DSLRs. Their pre-amp boxes go right underneath the camera body and can be conveniently screwed on. And they're relatively inexpensive. Unless you spend quite a bit of money on a fully professional high-end video camera, you'll always have to deal with hissy pre-amps.

    And yes, recording with an external audio recorder such as your Zoom is also a good option. It'll give you the highest quality audio. You'll have the camera's built in audio as a guide track for later syncing in Final Cut Pro. There is even software that more or less helps you automate that process, such as this one: http://www.singularsoftware.com/autosync/
  • THX1965THX1965 Registered Users Posts: 108 Major grins
    edited November 30, 2009
    Mnemosyne wrote:
    But my main concern is the audio issue. I plan on doing documentaries, so audio from interviews is important. Granted, I have the H2 Zoon Audio Recorder, and even with the 10/20 dollar mics it did a great job. I could just record separately and synch them up in FCS.

    One last follow up to your audio concerns - the folks over at Engadget have just done a nice little hands-on report about the 7D used as a video camera. Also your question about audio is covered in great detail. They do use the slightly more expensive Zoom H4n (because of its option of professional XLR inputs) and sync up the audio later in Final Cut Pro.

    http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/17/canon-eos-7d-impressions-for-filmmaker-wannabes/
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