Your advice? Please?

heatherfeather · November 24, 2009

For one of my last weddings I shot for a FULL 14 hours. And whenever I tried to do the bride and groom's photos together they were busy or would rather dance... dinner was late... or... or... or...lots of excuses. But anyway, those special photos never happened. (In FOURTEEN HOURS!!) I did get some great candids... but none of those "money shots" that I typically get with a wedding.

It actually states in my contract that the bride and groom will give me at least 1/2 hour of time on their wedding day to get those photos. It was in the schedule. They kept putting it off. And when we left off on the actual wedding day, the bride said that we would get together sometime after the honeymoon and make the photos. More expenses for me, but at least I give them what I get paid so handsomly for.

Now, she is saying that I did such a good job on their engagement photos... and there is no way to create that special feeling of her wedding day with hair and makeup and all that... and so she doesn't want to make the time to do those photos.

I hate to release her wedding photos until I have what I feel are wall hangers of the two of them in their wedding clothes. I still have 4 weeks until my contract says that I have to have their photos online, so that isn't the issue.

Here is the question: should I just go with it and just let it go? I am not happy with the set without including some of my trademark romantic stuff... Candids are great... but dancing photos aren't all that. I could pull the "breach of contract" card.. but seriously? Photos of folks under contract obligation wouldn't be all that great.

In the end, it is her wedding photos, but my quality control.

DAdamEich · November 24, 2009

I know that most of my work is from referrals. Everyone comes to me saying that they saw my work somewhere else. So, if I were in your position, I would ask myself... What is going to make me look the best? If you are forceful with this couple and tell them that they breached your contract, they may not have anything good to say about you and may not give you good referrals. Or... if you let it go and have another session with them and give them the photos that they want, you may be out some expenses and time, but they will be showing your best work to their friends and family. But.... you may also get the reputation with the clients that they may refer as a pushover. I would NOT want a reputation as a pushover. When I shoot, I have control of the situation and I make sure they know and expect that ahead of time.

Personally, I would pull the contract card (unless they are already on their honeymoon) and refuse to do another session without being paid for it.

I wouldn't have done 14 hours in the first place!! Congratulations on surviving that.

tenoverthenose · November 24, 2009

Heather,

Tricky situation, but unfortunately you have to be the one to answer it. Things didn't go right on the wedding day (as so often happens) but you have to make the most of what time you were given. I guess the correct answer really comes down to how the client feels. Hopefully you picked up on their vibe on the day of the wedding. To me, it sounds as if photos were simply not a priority for them.

Stamping it as done and moving on can be wise, get paid and get to the next job and keep making money. Especially if the client is pleased with what they have.

If you want to do another shoot....
Are they going to be "into" it? What about hair and makeup? Are these photos that you are looking to use for advertising? If you answered no to any of these, I would pass. But if you do this, be prepared to go wild (now you have no wedding day limitations) and treat it as a full day after session and be prepared to sell prints (perhaps make up a new agreement for this session).

sweet caroline · November 24, 2009

You feel very strongly about this, so you should let them know that you STRONGLY encourage them to follow up with some couple photos. Maybe you can make it a trash-the-dress type of session if she doesn't want to worry about looking exactly like she did on her wedding day. Let her know that you want to deliver the high quality frame-able images that you are accustomed to presenting to your clients. Maybe show some examples from other clients to make sure she understands what is missing from her set.

Caroline

Weisel · November 24, 2009

I had the same basic experience 2 weeks ago. I'll be watching this thread to hopefully steal some advice as well. What can ya do when the bride is 1 1/2 hours late getting dressed...then it gets dark AFTER the wedding. pfffft.

I hope it works out for you somehow. I know that situation you are in is disheartening.

heatherfeather · November 24, 2009

DAdamEich wrote:

I know that most of my work is from referrals. Everyone comes to me saying that they saw my work somewhere else. So, if I were in your position, I would ask myself... What is going to make me look the best? If you are forceful with this couple and tell them that they breached your contract, they may not have anything good to say about you and may not give you good referrals. Or... if you let it go and have another session with them and give them the photos that they want, you may be out some expenses and time, but they will be showing your best work to their friends and family. But.... you may also get the reputation with the clients that they may refer as a pushover. I would NOT want a reputation as a pushover. When I shoot, I have control of the situation and I make sure they know and expect that ahead of time.

Personally, I would pull the contract card (unless they are already on their honeymoon) and refuse to do another session without being paid for it.

I wouldn't have done 14 hours in the first place!! Congratulations on surviving that.

Sheesh, yeah.. It was 14 loong hours. Basically the reason why we went so long was that the bride kept saying... after this next thing we'll do the photos. And so I would wait cover what was going on... and then repeat the conversation after the next thing all evening.

One real reason for pushing it is just what you said. This was a client from a bit more classy set than I usually get. Big money. Which is one reason I would love to blow them away with some incredible photos and get some great referrals. It is gonna be a tricky balance...

heatherfeather · November 24, 2009

tenoverthenose wrote:

Heather,

Tricky situation, but unfortunately you have to be the one to answer it. Things didn't go right on the wedding day (as so often happens) but you have to make the most of what time you were given. I guess the correct answer really comes down to how the client feels. Hopefully you picked up on their vibe on the day of the wedding. To me, it sounds as if photos were simply not a priority for them.

Stamping it as done and moving on can be wise, get paid and get to the next job and keep making money. Especially if the client is pleased with what they have.

If you want to do another shoot....
Are they going to be "into" it? What about hair and makeup? Are these photos that you are looking to use for advertising? If you answered no to any of these, I would pass. But if you do this, be prepared to go wild (now you have no wedding day limitations) and treat it as a full day after session and be prepared to sell prints (perhaps make up a new agreement for this session).

She hasn't seen any of the photos other than the 5 or 6 teasers I put up the day after the wedding. But, you are making some really great points. At this moment, my portfolio isn't desperate for more but often times potential brides will check out photographs from a friends wedding before they choose their own photographer. I have thorough coverage of bridal prep, all the way through the wedding to the reception... but it is killing me to be missing the most important ones! This is the very reason why I encourage all my brides to consider seeing their grooms before the wedding: to avoid missing out on these photos.

heatherfeather · November 24, 2009

Ok, this is what I am considering for a reply to her:

Of course your wedding night was a one of a kind feeling. It was so special it would be impossible to duplicate. But why try to duplicate it?

This is what I really want to encourage you to consider:
If we made the photo session a completely different special moment, don't worry about fancy makeup, hair and everything else... but make it a celebration of your future and your relationship in its early stages. Think about all the changes that take place in a year. I mean: who knows if perhaps you will have a bun in the oven by next year...and don't fit the gown. Or something else entirely?

Candids are great, and we have some wonderful ones. I love them a lot! But 10 years from now there is a good chance that you will be dissapointed if we don't go for it and work towards capturing some special wedding photos of you and Billy together, even if it is after the special day. We could consider it a "trash the dress" without the trashing...

Of course, what you decide is going to be ultimately what you have to be happy with. Either way, just know my vote is for spending an afternoon together with the two of you making some photos that all of us can be extremely fond of.

All that to say: I am available this Saturday, if you are.

Cantfeelmyfingers · November 24, 2009

heatherfeather wrote:

Ok, this is what I am considering for a reply to her:

Tasteful, professional, and the perfect response! Hopefully she says yes!

Jeff_Milo · November 24, 2009

heatherfeather wrote:

but it is killing me to be missing the most important ones!

Are they really the most important ones? The wall hangers are great no doubt about it, but to me capturing the day and all of the memories is the most important part. The pictures that they look back on years from now and they remember what they were thinking and/or feeling at that time. The ones that bring a tear to the brides eye when she sees a pic of the expression on the grooms face as she comes down the isle, etc. Those are the shots that, I believe, get the referrals. I have seen a lot of your work and your excellent at capturing those moments, while you didn't get your "signature" shots you got what they allowed you to. Let it go at that.

All that being said, Your letter is very well done.

Qarik · November 24, 2009

let it go. You have very strong portfolio and this one is not going to hurt you in any way I imagine.

pwp · November 24, 2009

I had a very (VERY) similar experience this summer. I tried to corral the B&G the night of, but it was always something. They ended up being pleased with what I had, but I was not. I chalk it up to another learning experience that helps me move forward into the next time I am up against a similar situation.

I hope that she agrees to a TTD session, simply because I know you will blow them away!!

ChatKat · November 25, 2009

Difference in what they want and what you want...
Heather,

They know what they took on the day. If you were relaying to them all night that you had those shots you wanted to take but they weren't willing to make time, you have your answer. they weren't important to them and so I would totally let it go. As a matter of fact, I never would have been there 14 hours just to get those shots! If we told the story of the day, the day ends when it's in the can. Your time is worth something. They are getting good photos - you did your job. Don't force them into more that they don't want. It will leave a bad taste - opposite of what you want.

You did your job. Finsih the photos and what ever else they've been promised and then let them see your good work!

urbanaries · November 25, 2009

ChatKat wrote:

Heather,

They know what they took on the day. If you were relaying to them all night that you had those shots you wanted to take but they weren't willing to make time, you have your answer. they weren't important to them and so I would totally let it go. As a matter of fact, I never would have been there 14 hours just to get those shots! If we told the story of the day, the day ends when it's in the can. Your time is worth something. They are getting good photos - you did your job. Don't force them into more that they don't want. It will leave a bad taste - opposite of what you want.

You did your job. Finsih the photos and what ever else they've been promised and then let them see your good work!

ChatKat and Jeff are giving you some good advice here. Look at it this way...they wanted the documentary style and that's what they got. I have shot several weddings where we didn't do any "formal" couples photos and no one ever said, "where are the wall hangers?" It is not as rare as you realize to not have those. Let yourself and them off the hook and deliver those awesome shots and move on.

mmmatt · November 25, 2009

urbanaries wrote:

ChatKat and Jeff are giving you some good advice here. Look at it this way...they wanted the documentary style and that's what they got. I have shot several weddings where we didn't do any "formal" couples photos and no one ever said, "where are the wall hangers?" It is not as rare as you realize to not have those. Let yourself and them off the hook and deliver those awesome shots and move on.

I agree with this. Offer them an after session but not out of obligation... Maybe you can make another sale to them! You did your job 110%. As Urbanaries says it is pretty common with higher end pj shooters to not do posed formals. It is quite possible they really don't want to do any of that and are satisfied with the e-session for romantic couple shots.

I think your letter is well written, but IMHO tone it down as a simple suggestion. In the letter you are obvioulsy pushing to get them to do it and I personally feel that is the wrong attitude to have here. Give them the option, but don't come off as if you or they did anything wrong here. Delicate situation and you don't want them to be able to read into anything the wrong way.

Matt

Sam · November 25, 2009

You have done everything that's within your control. You can do no more.

If you want to offer them an additional shoot, that's fine but think about putting a time limit on the offer, otherwise you may be surprised when you get a call saying since we didn't use the free photo shoot you offered right after our wedding we would like to go ahead and schedule the free shoot now for us and our three kids.

Sam

Swartzy · November 25, 2009

heatherfeather wrote:

Ok, this is what I am considering for a reply to her:

Run with this Heather.....well worded and to the point. They need to understand the consequences of procrastination and this very well may encourage them to make a date.

ChatKat · November 25, 2009

Upsell
I am not sure why you want to give away a session for free. They booked a wedding and you shot a wedding as it was. If they were eager to have those images, they'd jump at it, but, you are actually losing a sale for a post wedding session that most would charge for. They have couples photos from their engagement session. This wouldn't be a part of their album and you have no guarantee that they want wall art so if you sold an 8x10 or even a 11x14 is that worth the extra effort of the additional shoot?

urbanaries · November 25, 2009

ChatKat wrote:

I am not sure why you want to give away a session for free. They booked a wedding and you shot a wedding as it was. If they were eager to have those images, they'd jump at it, but, you are actually losing a sale for a post wedding session that most would charge for. They have couples photos from their engagement session. This wouldn't be a part of their album and you have no guarantee that they want wall art so if you sold an 8x10 or even a 11x14 is that worth the extra effort of the additional shoot?

+100000000.

Clearly you are the one that will lose in this scenario.

It feels like you have two reasons to push this issue:
1. Your personal quality and artistic standards (to be commended but let's face it, you have done your absolute best and the client got what they wanted so there is no issue)
2. You are afraid their friends will judge the galleries and not hire you accordingly. I can't guarantee, but I would be *highly* surprised if their friends would even notice what is NOT there. They will be impressed with what IS there, and if they saw you at the wedding, impressed with how you handled yourself, and the bridal couple, whose tendencies they probably know better than you do.

Take that 4-8 hours you'd spend shooting, editing and upselling in vain on that shoot and go hang out with those adorable kiddos.

heatherfeather · November 25, 2009

urbanaries wrote:

+100000000.

Clearly you are the one that will lose in this scenario.

It feels like you have two reasons to push this issue:
1. Your personal quality and artistic standards (to be commended but let's face it, you have done your absolute best and the client got what they wanted so there is no issue)
2. You are afraid their friends will judge the galleries and not hire you accordingly. I can't guarantee, but I would be *highly* surprised if their friends would even notice what is NOT there. They will be impressed with what IS there, and if they saw you at the wedding, impressed with how you handled yourself, and the bridal couple, whose tendencies they probably know better than you do.

Take that 4-8 hours you'd spend shooting, editing and upselling in vain on that shoot and go hang out with those adorable kiddos.

Lynne, That was the worlds greatest synopsis of my issues. I think I AM gonna just let it go after that. My kids are waaay more worth my time than a client that doesn't really want it anyway. I think I am just gonna shut up and go make some pumpkin pie.

THANK YOU for the reality check.

Ed911 · November 25, 2009

ChatKat wrote:

Heather,

They know what they took on the day. If you were relaying to them all night that you had those shots you wanted to take but they weren't willing to make time, you have your answer. they weren't important to them and so I would totally let it go. As a matter of fact, I never would have been there 14 hours just to get those shots! If we told the story of the day, the day ends when it's in the can. Your time is worth something. They are getting good photos - you did your job. Don't force them into more that they don't want. It will leave a bad taste - opposite of what you want.

You did your job. Finish the photos and what ever else they've been promised and then let them see your good work!

+1 for the above.

sweet caroline · November 25, 2009

heatherfeather wrote:

Lynne, That was the worlds greatest synopsis of my issues. I think I AM gonna just let it go after that. My kids are waaay more worth my time than a client that doesn't really want it anyway. I think I am just gonna shut up and go make some pumpkin pie.

THANK YOU for the reality check.

Sounds like a plan;) I'm sure the couple and their families will be quite blown away with your work. I had a similar situation in May- no time for couple photos. Of course, I was only there 4.5 hours, and then I asked if they wanted to do those before I packed up. They declined. They were much more interested in being with their guests. They have no regrets.

Caroline

jeffreaux2 · November 25, 2009

Let it go....:D

You have fullfilled your end of the contract.

If you wanna be super generous..... come back and share some snaps of you and the kiddos making that pumkin pie.

...and Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours!

ExposeTheMoment · December 1, 2009

Contract
If you did your job, and they come back to complain about not getting certin photos, if I needed to I hit them with.

COOPERATION: The parties agree to a pre-event consultation before the event date in order to finalize the actual shooting times and locations. The parties also agree to cheerful cooperation and communication for the best possible result within the definition of this assignment. Expose The Moment is not responsible if key individual's failure to appear or cooperate during photography sessions or for missed images due to details not revealed to Expose The Moment. Expose The Moment recommends that CLIENT designate an "event guide" to point out important individuals for informal or candid photographs to the photographer (see above) during the wedding that they wish to have photographed. The CLIENT will direct all other service providers (florist, DJ, caterer, etc.) to provide any needed information and cooperation to Expose The Moment. Coordination with other service providers is necessary to complete all the photography as scheduled. The clients should share the photography schedule with other service providers to make sure that there are no conflicts with times. In addition, events during the wedding day should be planned to make the best use of time from all vendors. The CLIENT is also responsible for the conduct of their guests. Expose The Moment will not tolerate verbally or physically abusive behavior, nor will it share its time or compete with guest photographers for the attention of the subjects. Unchecked guest conduct that interferes with photography will seriously affect the quality of the photographs taken and increase the number of photos that must be created. If the CLIENT is unable to control the conduct of their guests or if the conduct of any of their guests damages the equipment of the photographer, it will result in the early or immediate departure of the photographer. We understand that in such an event, no refunds will result. ____________Initials

PHOTOGRAPHIC COVERAGE & RESTRICTIONS: All photographic coverage will be provided in accordance with the package contents outlined on page one under STUDIOS SERVICES TO INCLUDE. The CLIENT recognizes that weddings are uncontrolled events and Expose The Moment does not guarantee the delivery of any specific pose, image, or set of images. The CLIENT also understands Expose The Moment is limited by the guidelines of the ceremony official or reception site management. CLIENT agrees to accept the technical results of their imposition on Expose The Moment. Negotiation with the officials for moderation of guidelines is the CLIENT's responsibility; Expose The Moment will offer technical recommendations only. ____________Initials

kyeezie · December 1, 2009

After all this, I want to see some of those pictures. Heather, you always do such a fabulous job that I can't see anyone being disappointed.

zoomer · December 2, 2009

This won't be the last wedding you shoot that you don't think you got the money shot.
If the client is happy..... it is about what they want.
Learn from it and move on.

heatherfeather · December 7, 2009

Thanks everyone for your really kind remarks!

But this wedding just seems like the wedding from.... well you know.

Here is the slideshow that I put up on Friday. I also uploaded all the photos... all 900 of them.... (That is a LOT of photos. Most I have EVER delivered. But I don't usually shoot for 14 hours.)

http://ambiencephotography.myshowit.com/worthy/index.html

Anyway, that night I get an email from the bride saying she loves the photos but that I processed too many in black and white. (Seriously less than 1/2 of them) and she wants all of those in color in addition to the b & w. (not gonna happen) And also she wants to see more photos of one of her flower girls. That flower girl had been having a rough day which included full blown flailing on the floor tantrums all day... thus the lack of photos of her. Even during the 10 minutes of formals.

So first thing in the morning I get to work on my reply. Hopefully I'll be a bit more diplomatic than I feel right now.

And then tonight I get this post on facebook from one of her groomsmen:

hey is there anyway you can tag me photos on here so i can copy and paste them to my computer just do the ones that i am in please i would really appreciate it

Some folks are clueless about copyright.

And one other thing about this wedding: it was a huge strech for me. I ended up having to use every single ounce of photographic skill I have to squeeze out the shutter speed I needed. It was not just dark... it was reaaaally DARK. The decorations were a few blue gelled hot lights spashing on the wall and snowflakes shining on the wall about 30 feet in the air. That was all the light in the room, except for what spilled in from exits. So there were at least 3 temps of lights.
My second shooter completely gave up early on and went on lightstand duty. It was just too hard for her. I used my 35 1.4 at 1/60th at 3200ISO and 2 flashes on stands for most of the reception. But the 5DMKII performed excellently... I am amazed I got so many keepers in all that darkness.

Here are some of my favorites:

1. Just before the flower toss

2. This one is pretty much straight out of the camera. It had some zoom action going with a slow shutter speed and the flash froze the action. I liked it pretty well!

2. 3200 ISO looks pretty good when you throw light on things.

3. I don't usually get to hang around for this moment, so that was a treat. I was shaking birdseed out of my hair all night. My favorite part of this photo is the grandpa right behind the groom. What an expression!

4. Oh here is one taken by my assistant from earlier that afternoon. Yeppers, that is me. I am tall, but I "love" how perspective makes me look like a giant!

Anyway, there are lots more on the slideshow.
I think the work is pretty solid, even without my regular dreamy romantic wall hangers.

Let me know what you guys think!

ChatKat · December 7, 2009

900 Images
Heather -

I watched the full slide show - it's beautiful. The work under the circumstances is stunning.

900 Images delivered? In low light? How many for the album? That is one huge editing job. I hope they booked your top package because to deliver that many images is HUGE even for 14 hours. The black and white are your photographic vision.

Dear Client:

First I want to tell you that we were honored to be a part of the most important day of your lives. I hope your happiness of the day will be remembered in these images. I work hard to show that emotion in the images so that you will recall that special day for generations.

Part of the emotion is created using my trained experience as a photographer as to the look and finish of each photograph. Once I convert the image to black and white, they are final and not able to be revised back to color. Some images and particularly with dark venues as yours was look better in black and white and so that is why they are finished that way.

I just want to confirm the meeting with you as to album finalization. I look forward to finishing your prints and albums.

heatherfeather · December 7, 2009

ChatKat wrote:

Heather -

I watched the full slide show - it's beautiful. The work under the circumstances is stunning.

900 Images delivered? In low light? How many for the album? That is one huge editing job. I hope they booked your top package because to deliver that many images is HUGE even for 14 hours. The black and white are your photographic vision.
.

Thanks ChatKat.... it is a relief to know that I pulled it off despite everything.

I don't include the album with packages... If they want them, they pay for them in addition to the packages. She bought the disc so I am sure she will do her own thing for the album. If they do get the album, it ends up being around 80 photos (including the collages) and as many spreads.

Cmau · December 7, 2009

Not exactly sure what you were saying the groomsman wanted with those Facebook photos, but remember that tagged photos on Facebook can be a fantastic way to market yourself. As soon as that groomsman is tagged in the photo, all of his friends see that he was tagged and go check out the rest of the photos.... which could easily lead to another booking for you down the road. Photos uploaded to Facebook get compressed so much anyway that the quality is crap and nobody could ever get them printed at much more than a 4x6 in decent quality.

I know technically we all grant the bride and groom ONLY a license to use the photo CD/DVD, but really how many people do you think don't share those... it's impossible to police and not worth your time and effort. Since the only option is not giving the disc (which isn't really an option at all), just price the lost print sales from family into the cost of the disc/package in the first place and you're golden.

heatherfeather · December 7, 2009

Cmau wrote:

Not exactly sure what you were saying the groomsman wanted with those Facebook photos, but remember that tagged photos on Facebook can be a fantastic way to market yourself. As soon as that groomsman is tagged in the photo, all of his friends see that he was tagged and go check out the rest of the photos.... which could easily lead to another booking for you down the road. Photos uploaded to Facebook get compressed so much anyway that the quality is crap and nobody could ever get them printed at much more than a 4x6 in decent quality.

I know technically we all grant the bride and groom ONLY a license to use the photo CD/DVD, but really how many people do you think don't share those... it's impossible to police and not worth your time and effort. Since the only option is not giving the disc (which isn't really an option at all), just price the lost print sales from family into the cost of the disc/package in the first place and you're golden.

Actually, the groomsman wanted me to upload every single photo of him to facebook so he could right click and download it to his hard drive. I already put up a few to facebook as always, and I know they just have at those. He has already seen the entire gallery of the bride and grooms photos... he just wants to be able to lift them easier.

Your advice? Please?

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