Legal Question

jgoetz4

Good Evening Folks,
I hope everyone enjoyed a great Thanksgiving I am working on a coffee table type book. One of the pictures I would like to include has 3 children. The picture is almost 4 yrs old. Would I need a release from their parents to print it ? I have attached a copy of the picture. Thank you :thumb
Have a good evening
Jim...

sara505

jgoetz4 wrote:

Good Evening Folks,
I hope everyone enjoyed a great Thanksgiving I am working on a coffee table type book. One of the pictures I would like to include has 3 children. The picture is almost 4 yrs old. Would I need a release from their parents to print it ? I have attached a copy of the picture. Thank you
Have a good evening
Jim...

I think if it's for your personal use, you don't need permission. If you are using these people to endorse some kind of advertising, then I think it's a problem, and you need a release. There are probably people who know more than I do, and probably some other threads here on the subject, however.

jgoetz4

sara505 wrote:

I think if it's for your personal use, you don't need permission. If you are using these people to endorse some kind of advertising, then I think it's a problem, and you need a release. There are probably people who know more than I do, and probably some other threads here on the subject, however.

Good Evening Sara,
Thank you for your response
I'll see what other 'fish' I can reel in
Have a good evening
Jim...

gecko0

jgoetz4 wrote:

Good Evening Sara,
Thank you for your response
I'll see what other 'fish' I can reel in
Have a good evening
Jim...

I'm not an expert either, but every thread I've seen on this topic says "public location = fair game". As said above, unless you are using them to promote/sell something specific, then you can do what you want with it.

.02

jgoetz4

gecko0 wrote:

I'm not an expert either, but every thread I've seen on this topic says "public location = fair game". As said above, unless you are using them to promote/sell something specific, then you can do what you want with it.

.02

Good Evening Gecko0,
Thank you for your response I'm trying to use this photo in a book that I will be selling in the not to distant future. I already have approximately 40 people that are interested. Since there would be a small profit per book (maybe $5), would this constitute 'promotion' ? I understand about public location regarding buildings, statues, etc, but recognizable faces might be a different story. Thanks again
Have a good evening
Jim...

fredjclaus

I'm not a lawyer, but yes. You will need a model release from any people in a photograph that are recognizable. Since someone can say with 100% certainly that this is there kid, you will need a release. Now if it's a bunch of people on a beach with their backs turned, you might not need one. Since you can see these kids faces you will.

jgoetz4

fredjclaus wrote:

I'm not a lawyer, but yes. You will need a model release from any people in a photograph that are recognizable. Since someone can say with 100% certainly that this is there kid, you will need a release. Now if it's a bunch of people on a beach with their backs turned, you might not need one. Since you can see these kids faces you will.

Good Evening Fred,
Thank you for your response That's what I need to know, but not what I wanted to hear A lot of people liked that picture. Thanks again
Have a good evening
Jim...

bakerphotography

Something useful to keep in your bag
I too had some "legal type" questions, and was never quite sure on the facts. I was linked to this page. I print and keep a copy with me where ever I shoot. Some good info to read too.
JB
http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm

adbsgicom

fredjclaus wrote:

I'm not a lawyer, but yes. You will need a model release from any people in a photograph that are recognizable. Since someone can say with 100% certainly that this is there kid, you will need a release. Now if it's a bunch of people on a beach with their backs turned, you might not need one. Since you can see these kids faces you will.

Fred, what's your source here? My understanding (which may be very wrong, and based on your reply is wrong), is that unless the image is used for commercial, i.e., advertising (slapping "Coke Adds Life" to this image), you can print and profit from anyone's picture unless you've violated the cases of reasonable privacy. Children are not exempt.

Quincy T

adbsgicom wrote:

Fred, what's your source here? My understanding (which may be very wrong, and based on your reply is wrong), is that unless the image is used for commercial, i.e., advertising (slapping "Coke Adds Life" to this image), you can print and profit from anyone's picture unless you've violated the cases of reasonable privacy. Children are not exempt.

I was recently reading the same thing in PopPhoto, I believe Abdsgicom is correct here. I doubt that every piece of photographic art work involving a portrait that someone has profited from - of which there are hundreds of thousands I am sure - has had a model release.

Art Scott

IANAL.......but it is my understanding that pubic place = fair game as long as one is not using the image to endorse a product.....ie like in an ad......a coffee table book is a work of art in its own right......so I would say.....no harm, no foul.......but then agin I must reiterate IANAL................

sara505

Art Scott wrote:

IANAL.......but it is my understanding that pubic place = fair game as long as one is not using the image to endorse a product.....ie like in an ad......a coffee table book is a work of art in its own right......so I would say.....no harm, no foul.......but then agin I must reiterate IANAL................

That's what I was trying to say - if the photo is not being used specifically for advertising, for promoting a product - inferring that the people in the photo are endorsing the product - you do not need a release.

Go to any library or book store and pick up a book of fine photography - there are tons of people's photos - random, candid - certainly, each of those people did not sign a release.

That's my understanding, anyway.

adbsgicom

FWIW, article I found through google:
http://www.betterphoto.com/article.asp?id=37

Defines advertising/commercial to include:
However, for photos that will be used in commercial applications - ads, brochures, posters, greeting cards, catalogs, postcards, kiosks, trade shows, Web sites, etc. - you will need a release from your subject in order to be "legal."
This doesn't change the OP issue for a coffee table book. You should be able to use the pic in your book. And, as Art said, IANAL.....

ivar

I've moved this to mind your own business, since it seems to be a better fit

Angelo

Considering all the information available in the "Photographer's Resources" sticky thread at the top of the MYOB forum I can't believe how incorrect most of the posts in this thread are.

Jim - what is the intent of the coffee table book you will print? One copy for yourself or a published run to sell to others? If the latter you most definitely would require model releases.

"Public places" has absolutely nothing to do with this case. By assembling a series of images for publication defines your book as promotional collateral; a commercial endeavor.

.

jgoetz4

Good Morning Gentlemen,
Thank you all for the latest replies I was hoping that I could use the images of the kids, since I was not promoting any type of commercial product, but then, I figured I was still using their images to profit, and that was a no-no. Thank you for the interesting article
Have a good morning
Jim...

jgoetz4

Angelo wrote:

Considering all the information available in the "Photographer's Resources" sticky thread at the top of the MYOB forum I can't believe how incorrect most of the posts in this thread are.

Jim - what is the intent of the coffee table book you will print? One copy for yourself or a published run to sell to others? If the latter you most definitely would require model releases.

"Public places" has absolutely nothing to do with this case. By assembling a series of images for publication defines your book as promotional collateral; a commercial endeavor.

.

Morning Angelo,
Thank you I would be selling the books to family and friends, and making a small profit per book. At last count, I have 47 people that want at least one copy. I'm not getting rich, but making a profit none the less. I guess that settles the question :cry
Have a good morning
Jim...

Angelo

Well Jim good luck with your endeavor -

I would never suggest you embark any illegal or immoral path but considering the small group of people you're dealing with - you could gift them copies of the book. Of course, should they "make a donation" to you that would not constitute "selling" the book

jgoetz4

Angelo wrote:

Well Jim good luck with your endeavor -

I would never suggest you embark any illegal or immoral path but considering the small group of people you're dealing with - you could gift them copies of the book. Of course, should they "make a donation" to you that would not constitute "selling" the book

Thanks Angelo
I believe there is more than one way to skin a rabbit
Have a good morning
Jim...

mehampson

Usual "I am not a lawyer", etc., but get a release from the parents. 47 copies is probably above a reasonable threshold of personal use.

Even if you give away the books, if I were in your shoes I would assume it still comes under the heading of promotion/advertising. Especially if there's any money involved, even if it's not directly called a sale (and it doesn't matter what you call it), even if you're giving them away at a loss. This wouldn't be that different from putting up flyers or handing out business cards with your name and web address where people can buy prints or your services -- you'd need a model release if you used this photo for that purpose.

Another thing to consider is that whether you need the release or don't, you can still get sued if you don't have permission. Then the court can argue whether its commercial or fine art, and whether you're in the wrong or not, it's still a lot of time, energy, and money to spend.

And my last point is that these kids (or their parents) have a right to control how their likeness is used... if they were yours, wouldn't you want to at least know about this? I say, get the release.

adbsgicom

Using the specified sticky: http://www.danheller.com/model-release.html#8.5, I'm really confused since it seems counter to Angelo's notice above. I'm so far away from needing to worry about this, but reading this seems to support the right to use. Angelo, can you clarify this, since I'm getting more and more turned around on this.

Of course, the key thing Angelo said is that being within your rights might not stop you from getting dragged into civil court, but in theory, you should win.

The article says:
Speaking of the First Amendment, artistic exhibitions (and publications) are considered editorial and are protected from the need to have consent from a subject in order to publish a photo of him, her or "it" (like a building or other property). This means that you can exhibit your photos of recognizable people or things in galleries, public fairs, photo contests, magazines, newspapers, postcards, posters and coffee table books (or books of any sort, so long as it's not one that's distributed with a product, like a camera manual). In fact, "art" in any of these forms can be printed without a release, regardless of the medium in which it is printed, because of that First Amendment permission.


More clarification in the article, including a case where images were sold for 20-30K each (so profit was definately there).

Angelo

Andrew - you're right; that article does imply coffee table books fall into the category of "art".

I might still prefer to be on the safe side and acquire releases if possible.

sara505

Angelo wrote:

Andrew - you're right; that article does imply coffee table books fall into the category of "art".

I might still prefer to be on the safe side and acquire releases if possible.

Seriously - do you really think, looking at all those art/photo books in stores and libraries, that releases were obtained for all those random candid shots?

Angelo

sara505 wrote:

Seriously - do you really think, looking at all those art/photo books in stores and libraries, that releases were obtained for all those random candid shots?

no I don't

.

bmoreshooter

Everything that we do is not always covered by law or constitution. Sometimes it requires common sense. Just for the sake of argument let's suppose that the parents of the children did not want the whereabouts of them to be public information. If it's impossible to get permission I would just leave the picture out. You have already infringed upon their rights by posting the picture here. While many of the people here are very knowledgeable I would trust this question to an attorney that deals with this type of thing. I have several lawyers in my family and I presented them with this question. They all seem to agree that while you may appear to be covered within the the law it could all come down to interpretation of the law and the final decision of a judge who just might have children. Err on the side of caution.

orljustin

No, you don't need releases or permission to print inside a coffee table book. Period.

orljustin

Angelo wrote:

Considering all the information available in the "Photographer's Resources" sticky thread at the top of the MYOB forum I can't believe how incorrect most of the posts in this thread are.

Jim - what is the intent of the coffee table book you will print? One copy for yourself or a published run to sell to others? If the latter you most definitely would require model releases.
.

And it's surprising how incorrect you are.

wadesworld

I'm not a lawyer but I'm in agreement with most of the of the other posters here.

You do not need a release for a coffee table book, unless the book is specifically to promote your business (or some other).

So if the book is "Kids, Docks, Lakes and Fishing" with all sorts of those types of pictures, it's a work of art. It doesn't matter if you sell a billion of them and make 20 billion dollars profit.

If the book is "Jim's Photography" and describes your business and happens to include some of your favorite shots, it would be promotional material and would require a release.

Now, with all that said, it does cost money to defend yourself from a frivolous lawsuit, and parents are just the type that might sue even though they don't have a case. So I might err on the side of caution.

Or the best answer in this case might be: consult your lawyer and go with his/her advice.

Angelo

orljustin wrote:

And it's surprising how incorrect you are.

Thanks but my error has already been established, thinking the OP was referencing a piece of promotional material.

jgoetz4

Good Evening Folks,
Thank you all for your responses I have just returned from my dad's funeral, so I am taking the night off and just gonna relax. Worse case scenario; I'll put sunglasses on the kids :ivar Again, thank you.
Have a good evening
Jim...

adbsgicom

jgoetz4 wrote:

Good Evening Folks,
Thank you all for your responses I have just returned from my dad's funeral, so I am taking the night off and just gonna relax. Worse case scenario; I'll put sunglasses on the kids :ivar Again, thank you.
Have a good evening
Jim...

May your father's memory be for a blessing.
Good luck with your endeavor. I don't think you metioned. Is this a themed book, or "JGoetz's Greatest Hits, Vol 1." ?