Bit of a quandry...

M38A1M38A1 Registered Users Posts: 1,317 Major grins
edited August 5, 2010 in Cameras
I'm planning a trip to OshKosh in 2010 for the airshow. I have a D90 with the Nikon 18-200VR that does fairly well for most shots after a little post-processing.

I'm looking at the Nikon 70-200VR f/2.8 and the Nikon 70-300VR f/4.5. Huge price difference, but from what I gather, the quality of shots from the 70-200 will blow anything out of the water. Yet I'm thinking for an airshow I'll want a bit more 'reach'. The f/4.5 of the 70-300 doesn't scare me as this will be a daylight/sky pointed lens.

Thoughts?

Comments

  • QarikQarik Registered Users Posts: 4,959 Major grins
    edited November 30, 2009
    M38A1 wrote:
    I'm planning a trip to OshKosh in 2010 for the airshow. I have a D90 with the Nikon 18-200VR that does fairly well for most shots after a little post-processing.

    I'm looking at the Nikon 70-200VR f/2.8 and the Nikon 70-300VR f/4.5. Huge price difference, but from what I gather, the quality of shots from the 70-200 will blow anything out of the water. Yet I'm thinking for an airshow I'll want a bit more 'reach'. The f/4.5 of the 70-300 doesn't scare me as this will be a daylight/sky pointed lens.

    Thoughts?

    so you are in a pickle about these two lens? For the air show teh 70-300mm might suit you better but if you were considering the 70-200mm then pony up a bit more for the 1.4TC.

    Then after the airshow enjoy the 70-200mm for all other shooting. imo these 2 lens are not even in the same category that you should be any debate. If you can afford the 70-200mm then get it.mwink.gif
    D700, D600
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  • ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 24,130 moderator
    edited November 30, 2009
    M38A1 wrote:
    I'm planning a trip to OshKosh in 2010 for the airshow. I have a D90 with the Nikon 18-200VR that does fairly well for most shots after a little post-processing.

    I'm looking at the Nikon 70-200VR f/2.8 and the Nikon 70-300VR f/4.5. Huge price difference, but from what I gather, the quality of shots from the 70-200 will blow anything out of the water. Yet I'm thinking for an airshow I'll want a bit more 'reach'. The f/4.5 of the 70-300 doesn't scare me as this will be a daylight/sky pointed lens.

    Thoughts?

    These are 2 completely different type of lenses.

    The constant large aperture of the 70-200mm, f2.8 means that AF will be faster and more accurate. It also potentially allows more DOF control, which could be very useful for any ground based images in separating the subject from foreground/background. The larger aperture would also allow better operation indoors and at night, in case you want to capture any of the social part of the fly-in.

    The Nikkor 70-300mm, f/4.5-5.6G ED IF AF-S VR is 2 stops slower by 200mm, meaning slower AF performance as well. It is a much lighter lens, and much easier to carry through a whole day of shooting. The 300mm is OK but not great wide open. It really needs f8 and f11 to be sharp across the image plane.

    The 70-200mm with a 1.4x Nikon teleconverter at 280mm effective should beat the 70-300mm at 300mm in most respects.

    If you truly only need the lens for Oshkosh it would seem prudent to rent rather than purchase.
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • bloomphotogbloomphotog Registered Users Posts: 582 Major grins
    edited November 30, 2009
    I would just buy or rent a 300mm f/4 - this lens is a phenomenal value and super sharp, with very fast AF. The 70-200 2.8 is a far better all purpose lens, but you have a specific use in mind. The 18-200 is a great DX lens, and coupled with the 300 f4 you'll have a sweet setup.
  • M38A1M38A1 Registered Users Posts: 1,317 Major grins
    edited November 30, 2009
    Thanks for the replies. Yes - I was aware they are in two different classes regarding performance but didn't know exactly how they are different.

    I've had my eye on the 70-200VR for a while to shoot wildlife and landscapes. That coupled with the 1.4 TC is tugging at me for a solution. I'm a casual shooter, this isn't my profession but I like nice captures.

    I hadn't considered the TC route, so that helps a lot. Seems like it could work well for the 70-200 f/2.8, but I see it won't work on the 70-300. I can't find any information which tells me it would/wouldn't work with the new 70-200 f/2.8 VRII version. Anybody care to chime in on this one?

    Also, I appreciate the explaination on the 70-300 being slower and the downstream effects such as focus time etc. My 18-200VR has a sweet spot of f/8ish as well and I've been compensating by shutterspeed or ISO with acceptable results. Again, if I was just pointing at the sky for most of the day with this lens, at it's price point with bright sky (or even cloudy) and a decent ISO (maybe 800 at it's highest) I think this might be a solution for sky shots. But the slow focus time concerns me with aircraft.

    And the real krinkie-dink in this is the rental aspect, again of which I hadn't considered. I'm not opposed to a rental, and in some respects think it's probably a good use of funds. Yet at the same time I can't help but think it's just that - a rental and those funds for a weeks rental could go towards the purchase cost.


    Thanks!

    .
  • gowiththeflowgowiththeflow Registered Users Posts: 49 Big grins
    edited November 30, 2009
    M38A1 wrote:
    Thanks for the replies. Yes - I was aware they are in two different classes regarding performance but didn't know exactly how they are different.

    I've had my eye on the 70-200VR for a while to shoot wildlife and landscapes. That coupled with the 1.4 TC is tugging at me for a solution. I'm a casual shooter, this isn't my profession but I like nice captures.

    I hadn't considered the TC route, so that helps a lot. Seems like it could work well for the 70-200 f/2.8, but I see it won't work on the 70-300. I can't find any information which tells me it would/wouldn't work with the new 70-200 f/2.8 VRII version. Anybody care to chime in on this one?

    Also, I appreciate the explaination on the 70-300 being slower and the downstream effects such as focus time etc. My 18-200VR has a sweet spot of f/8ish as well and I've been compensating by shutterspeed or ISO with acceptable results. Again, if I was just pointing at the sky for most of the day with this lens, at it's price point with bright sky (or even cloudy) and a decent ISO (maybe 800 at it's highest) I think this might be a solution for sky shots. But the slow focus time concerns me with aircraft.

    And the real krinkie-dink in this is the rental aspect, again of which I hadn't considered. I'm not opposed to a rental, and in some respects think it's probably a good use of funds. Yet at the same time I can't help but think it's just that - a rental and those funds for a weeks rental could go towards the purchase cost.


    Thanks!

    .

    A teleconverter will work just fine with the new VRII lens. Nikon's teleconverters are 'keyed' so that you can't mount a lens with a maximum aperture smaller than f/2.8 on them, though I think Sigma/Kenko TCs lack this feature. If I ever win the lotto, I'll augment the 70-300mm VR with the 70-200mm VRII and a 1.4x or 1.7x TC, though I'd probably still keep the 70-300mm to carry around day-to-day.

    I kind of agree on renting, especially since the 70-200mm runs almost $100 a week (before adding the TC) from BorrowLenses. For that much, I'd almost rather buy a used one and sell it afterwards... might be cheaper. :D
  • ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 24,130 moderator
    edited November 30, 2009
    M38A1 wrote:
    ... Also, I appreciate the explaination on the 70-300 being slower and the downstream effects such as focus time etc. My 18-200VR has a sweet spot of f/8ish as well and I've been compensating by shutterspeed or ISO with acceptable results. Again, if I was just pointing at the sky for most of the day with this lens, at it's price point with bright sky (or even cloudy) and a decent ISO (maybe 800 at it's highest) I think this might be a solution for sky shots. But the slow focus time concerns me with aircraft.

    ...

    A lens with a larger aperture allows more light to fall on the AF sensor, which is just a light sensitive sensor with a specialized purpose and construction and it's own set of lenses with which to sample the image as it forms from an image splitter. (It is an electronic rangefinder.)

    More light means that the available sensitivity of the AF sensor is more optimized versus lesser light. It provides a higher image signal to noise ratio as well. This is especially important to identify edges of the subject, which is how focus is defined (sharpest edges).

    A larger aperture also provides a narrower DOF, so that once the subject is selected, it is more easily discriminated from the foreground and background. If you still set a small aperture for the exposure, you will gain a greater margin for error, in effect attaining a higher degree of success.

    The particular lens in question, actually either the original or the new Nikkor 70-200mm, f2.8VR II, also has a very robust AF-S motor compared to the 70-300mm zoom. This allows slightly faster AF operation by itself.

    Could the 70-300mm keep accurate focus? More than likely you could use it and get many keepers. It's just that the 70-200mm will achieve a higher rate of success under any situation and the image quality will be better as well, from a number of different aspects of image quality measurement.
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • DsrtVWDsrtVW Registered Users Posts: 1,991 Major grins
    edited November 30, 2009
    Last Air show I shot was at Beale Air Force Base. I used my 300 f4 which did real well. But wish I had taken my Sigma 170-500mm. I also had a 18-200 mm but I was finding it a bit short. I was trying to travel light and had a limited amouont of time to spend there.
    Here is a link if you care to look.
    http://kadvantage.smugmug.com/Military/Beale-AFB-Airshow-2009/7942891_AknAf/1/517495112_JVQnz

    You might want to even consider a nikon 80-400mm or Sigma 50-500mm
    VR is nice but but really would nt add anything in good bright light. All depends on what you shoot when you are not shooting airshows.
    Chris K. NANPA Member
    http://kadvantage.smugmug.com/
  • M38A1M38A1 Registered Users Posts: 1,317 Major grins
    edited November 30, 2009
    DsrtVW wrote:
    ...All depends on what you shoot when you are not shooting airshows.

    Nice shots....

    This airshow thing is an infrequent shoot for me. I might do one or two a year so that's a factor for me. But here in Tejas, we've got lots of wide open spaces and plenty of wildlife to keep me busy shooting for quite some time.
  • WolftepWolftep Registered Users Posts: 67 Big grins
    edited December 4, 2009
    M38A1 wrote:
    Nice shots....

    This airshow thing is an infrequent shoot for me. I might do one or two a year so that's a factor for me. But here in Tejas, we've got lots of wide open spaces and plenty of wildlife to keep me busy shooting for quite some time.

    I went to the 2008 show. It's a good time, and there is a ton see. I hope you have a good time.

    Here are some of the pictures I took while there (all straight out of the camera - I had yet to get into PP at that point)... EEA Airventure 2008

    I shot those with an Olympus E-500. The "air" shots are taken with an Olympus Zuiko Digital ED 70-300mm F4.0-5.6.

    I have recently switched that lens out for a Olympus Zuiko Digital ED 50-200mm F2.8-3.5 SWD. With the two lenses you are looking at, I couldn't help but notice the similarities. For what it's worth, although the 50-200 is much more expensive, I could not be happier having upgraded. As others have stated here, if you need a little extra reach, adding a TC is a good option. If cost is not an issue, get the better glass and I'll bet you won't regret it.
  • pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,708 moderator
    edited December 4, 2009
    M38A1 wrote:
    I'm planning a trip to OshKosh in 2010 for the airshow. I have a D90 with the Nikon 18-200VR that does fairly well for most shots after a little post-processing.

    I'm looking at the Nikon 70-200VR f/2.8 and the Nikon 70-300VR f/4.5. Huge price difference, but from what I gather, the quality of shots from the 70-200 will blow anything out of the water. Yet I'm thinking for an airshow I'll want a bit more 'reach'. The f/4.5 of the 70-300 doesn't scare me as this will be a daylight/sky pointed lens.

    Thoughts?

    Two lenses I have used at airshows are the Sigma 150-500, and the Tamron 200-500. Neither is image stabilized, but since you will be panning with the planes that is not too big an issue. Do not expect to shoot them wide open and get the best image, but stopped down they will do fine.

    I find a 200 or 300 too short too much of the time. Maybe you can get closer than I seem to be able.
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
  • Art ScottArt Scott Registered Users Posts: 8,959 Major grins
    edited December 5, 2009
    pathfinder wrote:
    Two lenses I have used at airshows are the Sigma 150-500, and the Tamron 200-500. Neither is image stabilized, but since you will be panning with the planes that is not too big an issue. Do not expect to shoot them wide open and get the best image, but stopped down they will do fine.

    I find a 200 or 300 too short too much of the time. Maybe you can get closer than I seem to be able.

    Sigma now stabilizes the 150-500 ..............mwink.gifmwink.gifmwink.gif
    "Genuine Fractals was, is and will always be the best solution for enlarging digital photos." ....Vincent Versace ... ... COPYRIGHT YOUR WORK ONLINE ... ... My Website

  • M38A1M38A1 Registered Users Posts: 1,317 Major grins
    edited December 6, 2009
    Thanks for all the info thus far. Lots to digest.

    I think I'll wait a few more weeks to see what "santa" has in store for me before making any purchases.

    I'm leaning towards something more than 200mm being required so that still leaves me in the 70-200VR with the 1.4TC or the slower 70-300 with elevated ISO as my saving grace with pan shots to negate the IS features.

    I suppose the next question is actually it's own thread, but I don't have to drink the Nikon kool-aid. Are there alternatives that provide the same or better quality results at a different/lower price point?

    .
  • M38A1M38A1 Registered Users Posts: 1,317 Major grins
    edited December 6, 2009
    So this little guy popped up on craigslist this evening.... Is this an attractive price if in mint as advertised as a companion to the D90 and airshow work? This might hold me over until 70-200VR f/2.8 funding availability.

    Nikon Nikkor AF-S 70-300mm VR F4.0-5.6G IF ED - $400

    Thoughts?

    .
  • M38A1M38A1 Registered Users Posts: 1,317 Major grins
    edited August 3, 2010
    A bit of an update since thread inception......

    I was able to attend my first EAA AirVenture show for two days last week with my Dad. We've both wanted to go, so we just booked it and I have to say, that was a great little get away.

    I didn't purchase any new glass. Rather I just used my little Nikon 18-200VR on the D90 to grab some shots that I'm pleased with. The whole gallery is HERE if you're interested.

    Here's a few I liked with the D90/18-200VR

    955272724_foHZi-M.jpg

    955503303_kSGnK-M.jpg

    955503674_3NDti-M.jpg

    955503837_jVzGK-M.jpg

    956258904_e2CVA-M.jpg
  • digger2digger2 Registered Users Posts: 91 Big grins
    edited August 3, 2010
    Buy
    Not once have I read that price is really an issue. You like the 2.8, you have wide open spaces in Tecas for wildlife so go for it.
    As an alternative, find a local source near the airshow to rent and see if they will refund any of the rental costs if you buy that lens after the show.
  • IcebearIcebear Registered Users Posts: 4,015 Major grins
    edited August 3, 2010
    For what my opinion is worth: I have both the 70-300 f4.5-5.6 and 70-200 f2.8. The 70-300 I use on my D300 for reach. The 70-200 I use on my D700 for speed. The 70-200 f2.8 is a frigging heavy beast. Put a T/C on it and it's heavier. I use my D300 as a 1.5x teleconverter! Quite frankly, I see virtually NO difference in sharpness in the two in actual field shooting situations. Your shots with your 18-200 are pretty dang nice IMO.
    John :
    Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
    D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
  • NikonsandVstromsNikonsandVstroms Registered Users Posts: 990 Major grins
    edited August 4, 2010
    M38A1 wrote: »
    Thanks for the replies. Yes - I was aware they are in two different classes regarding performance but didn't know exactly how they are different.

    I've had my eye on the 70-200VR for a while to shoot wildlife and landscapes. That coupled with the 1.4 TC is tugging at me for a solution. I'm a casual shooter, this isn't my profession but I like nice captures.

    I hadn't considered the TC route, so that helps a lot. Seems like it could work well for the 70-200 f/2.8, but I see it won't work on the 70-300. I can't find any information which tells me it would/wouldn't work with the new 70-200 f/2.8 VRII version. Anybody care to chime in on this one?

    Also, I appreciate the explaination on the 70-300 being slower and the downstream effects such as focus time etc. My 18-200VR has a sweet spot of f/8ish as well and I've been compensating by shutterspeed or ISO with acceptable results. Again, if I was just pointing at the sky for most of the day with this lens, at it's price point with bright sky (or even cloudy) and a decent ISO (maybe 800 at it's highest) I think this might be a solution for sky shots. But the slow focus time concerns me with aircraft.

    And the real krinkie-dink in this is the rental aspect, again of which I hadn't considered. I'm not opposed to a rental, and in some respects think it's probably a good use of funds. Yet at the same time I can't help but think it's just that - a rental and those funds for a weeks rental could go towards the purchase cost.


    Thanks!

    .

    You could take another route in the future.....the Sigma 70-200 F2.8 which from all I hear is a great lens, fast AF, and closer to the 70-300 price than the 70-200.

    And this those photos bring back some major nostalgia, the air show used to be all of 1/2 mile from my house.....one time the thunder birds came so low on full burner it felt like a major earthquake and we had to reinforce the deck, as a 12 year old kid I was going wings.gif

    They would get much closer to the residential houses than when I saw them at the air show.

    My personal favorite was the A-10 though that is one beautiful aircraft......sorry about the slight hijack I just miss all that stuff.
  • IcebearIcebear Registered Users Posts: 4,015 Major grins
    edited August 4, 2010
    You could take another route.....the Sigma 70-200 F2.8 which from all I hear is a great lens, fast AF, and closer to the 70-300 price than the 70-200.

    Does the Sigma have VR? Don't think so. Is that a deal breaker? Was for me. YMMV. I'm an old geezer, so my steadiness ain't what it never was.

    I like my Nikkor 70-200 & 70-300. Would I have bought the 70-300 if I already had a 70-200. No, but I'm not considering selling it..
    John :
    Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
    D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
  • NikonsandVstromsNikonsandVstroms Registered Users Posts: 990 Major grins
    edited August 4, 2010
    Icebear wrote: »
    Does the Sigma have VR? Don't think so. Is that a deal breaker? Was for me. YMMV. I'm an old geezer, so my steadiness ain't what it never was.

    I like my Nikkor 70-200 & 70-300. Would I have bought the 70-300 if I already had a 70-200. No, but I'm not considering selling it..

    I was about to say Sigma has a OS version coming out but looking at their site I got major sticker shock:

    $2,470.00 MSRP

    :eek1

    Their MSRP for the non-OS 70-200 is 1/3 over the actual cost most places but that still would be over 1,600 dollars for the OS version.
  • InsuredDisasterInsuredDisaster Registered Users Posts: 1,132 Major grins
    edited August 4, 2010
    Icebear wrote: »
    For what my opinion is worth: I have both the 70-300 f4.5-5.6 and 70-200 f2.8. The 70-300 I use on my D300 for reach. The 70-200 I use on my D700 for speed. The 70-200 f2.8 is a frigging heavy beast. Put a T/C on it and it's heavier. I use my D300 as a 1.5x teleconverter! Quite frankly, I see virtually NO difference in sharpness in the two in actual field shooting situations. Your shots with your 18-200 are pretty dang nice IMO.

    Second the 70-200 as a heavy beast. As for, a TC though, I've got the TC-2Eii and find it to be a bit dissappointing. The latest version might be ok, but I hear the 1.4 or 1.7 are better options for the 70-200.
  • IcebearIcebear Registered Users Posts: 4,015 Major grins
    edited August 4, 2010
    I was about to say Sigma has a OS version coming out but looking at their site I got major sticker shock:

    $2,470.00 MSRP

    :eek1

    Whoaa! I don't get it. Why would anyone buy that when the Nikkor is available for a roughly similar price? No telling what the street price will be for the Sigma, but that MSRP is MORE than the Nikkor sells for now. headscratch.gif
    John :
    Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
    D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
  • InsuredDisasterInsuredDisaster Registered Users Posts: 1,132 Major grins
    edited August 4, 2010
    Icebear wrote: »
    Whoaa! I don't get it. Why would anyone buy that when the Nikkor is available for a roughly similar price? No telling what the street price will be for the Sigma, but that MSRP is MORE than the Nikkor sells for now. headscratch.gif


    That is a bit odd. I'm curious if Sigma has corrected their "A/M" setting to function on Nikon bodies? On my 10-20, rotating the focus ring does NOT override the camera's own focusing as it does on nikon's lenses. I read somewhere that this is a known problem for sigma lenses.

    If Sigma lenses still do this, then it seems a bit strange to pay more for a less functional product.
  • ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 24,130 moderator
    edited August 4, 2010
    Icebear wrote: »
    Whoaa! I don't get it. Why would anyone buy that when the Nikkor is available for a roughly similar price? No telling what the street price will be for the Sigma, but that MSRP is MORE than the Nikkor sells for now. headscratch.gif

    The Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G AF-S ED VR II has a MSRP (Nikon calls it an "ESP") of $$2,399.95USD. No one normally pays that except from some sucker price vendors. Likewise for the Sigma 70-200mm F2.8 EX DG OS HSM.

    http://www.nikonusa.com/Find-Your-Nikon/Product/Camera-Lenses/2185/AF-S-NIKKOR-70-200mm-f%252F2.8G-ED-VR-II.html

    Part of Marketing 101 regarding pricing strategy is that you can always reduce the price if something new doesn't sell at a high introductory price. It's much more difficult to raise prices if initially set too low. There are almost always people who will buy new just based on "newness". I suspect that as the supply/demand levels off the prices will drop to sustainable levels too.
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • cab.in.bostoncab.in.boston Registered Users Posts: 634 Major grins
    edited August 5, 2010
    Icebear wrote: »
    Whoaa! I don't get it. Why would anyone buy that when the Nikkor is available for a roughly similar price? No telling what the street price will be for the Sigma, but that MSRP is MORE than the Nikkor sells for now. headscratch.gif

    Despite Sigma's listed MSRP, Adorama offers the 70-200 non-OS at $799, and the OS version at $1699. They offer the Nikkor 70-200 VRII, US version at $2179. So one can decide if the Nikkor is worth the extra $480. I think the street price of the Sigma is near what the Nikkor VRI version was selling for.

    Personally, I think when (if) I can afford to upgrade my telezoom, I will go with the non-OS version, as most of my use for that lens will either be for action shots requiring a high shutter speed or I'll be using a tripod. That's unless I happen to try out the Nikkor version at some point and realize that it's probably worth selling internal organs for. bowdown.gif
    Father, husband, dog lover, engineer, Nikon shooter
    My site 365 Project
  • M38A1M38A1 Registered Users Posts: 1,317 Major grins
    edited August 5, 2010
    This is all great dialogue.... I'm learning lots as we wade through this. thumb.gif

    .
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