Help with Custom White Balance and Correct Exposure

Shark

Below, you all will find a few samples of some of my hockey photos. The last two photos are of another area photographer that I know. His shots are always tack sharp, colorful, and the faces can be seen. That is how I wish mine would turn out. Sometimes I can post edit, and my photos come out acceptable, but I know they can be as good as the bottom two photos. The other photographer shoots with the same camera that I do, a Canon 50D. I use, depending on what I'm shooting, a 70-200mm 2.8/ 85mm 1.8/ and a 100mm 2.0 lenses. I have tried several different settings, but still cannot get all my shots to come out looking like the last two photos in this post. This guy's photos just about all turn out like this, and with the amount he uploads to his site, they are straight from his camera this way. If there are sports photographers out there, who shoot with the Canon 50D, you can't imagine how happy I would be if you can help me out with this problem. I sell a good deal of photos, and my customers are always happy with my product, but I know it can be alot better than it is. What I would like to have for my hockey photos: Clear, tack sharp photos, Faces that can be seen, Bright bursting colors.
Thanks in advance for any help or direction anybody can give me.

Shark


MY PHOTO


MY PHOTO


MY PHOTO


MY PHOTO

http://pbs131.smugmug.com/photos/728405718_dbV7B-M.jpg
NOT MY PHOTO

http://pbs131.smugmug.com/photos/728405736_R2nnZ-M.jpg
NOT MY PHOTO

RogersDA

A bit of white balance in post-processing or account for it before shooting. That tungsten lighting is yellow/orange. Use your camera's settings to account for that. Could also shoot AV and +1 (or so) EC. All that bright ice, like snow, will cause your sensor to think it is overexposing. By dialing in +1 EC you will actually brighten the image a lot.

Check out Andy's Snow Dog. The EXIF on that first image shows + 1 1/3 EC.

Just FYI - ya' shouldn't post other people's shots w/o permission either. Just give a link.

Nikonic1

adbsgicom wrote:

Help with what?

What I would like to have for my hockey photos: Clear, tack sharp photos, Faces that can be seen, Bright bursting colors.
Thanks in advance for any help or direction anybody can give me.

:D:D

Shark

adbsgicom wrote:

Help with what?

The settings. My photos do not come out good. They are dark, drab, dark faces, not tack sharp. His come out much brighter, much clearer, more colorful. I know it must be that I have my camera on the wrong settings, but I haven't been able to come up with the correct combination of settings to get the kind of photos I know my camera is capable of capturing.

pathfinder

Read RogerDa post again he has excellent suggestions.

Try setting a custom white balance with an Exposdisc or a Spectrasnap filter, like he suggested.

Shoot in Av with at least +1 stop of Exposure Compensation like he suggested.

If you are shooting jpgs, and many sportshooters do, set a custom white balance for your camera in the arena lighting before the game starts!

You may want to increase the in camera sharpening and saturation slightly also.

RogersDA

pathfinder wrote:

Read RogerDa post again he has excellent suggestions.

Try setting a custom white balance with an Exposdisc or a Spectrasnap filter, like he suggested.

Shoot in Av with at least +1 stop of Exposure Compensation like he suggested.

If you are shooting jpgs, and many sportshooters do, set a custom white balance for your camera in the arena lighting before the game starts!

You may want to increase the in camera sharpening and saturation slightly also.

+1 on Exposdisc when used as directed.

Shark

Thanks everybody. I have gone to +1 on the exposure, but I have always had a hard time figuring out how to set the custom white balance. I've always felt that could be one of my main problems too.

pathfinder

Here is a thread about various tools for setting a custom white balance.

The technique varies a bit for different cameras, but basically you shoot an incamera jpg of a non-specular white or gray target, or through a filter like an Exposdisc . You then tell the camera to use that jpg as source file for a custom white balance in your menus in your camera. You may need to read the manual for your specific camera, but once you have done it, it is very easy to repeat. Less than thirty seconds from firing the shutter to having your new custom white balance. If you change your light source, you will have to start over again.

Miguel Delinquento

If you are shooting jpegs,then setting the custom white balance is critical. You need to read your camera's user manual and follow the directions. It will take a few times to get it figured out, but this discipline is what distinguishes a photographer from a snapshooter. Prior to spending the $100 on an Expodisc (which I've owned and thought worked OK), try a 2-cent white coffee filter. I recently read some testing that shows little difference in results between them.

If you are shooting RAW, then learn to work the white balance in your software.

Increasing the exposure will help, but make sure you can still capture the action. The AUD is lighted miserably. Is the Clinton team still known as the Comets?

M

Shark wrote:

Thanks everybody. I have gone to +1 on the exposure, but I have always had a hard time figuring out how to set the custom white balance. I've always felt that could be one of my main problems too.

Shark

Miguel Delinquento wrote:

If you are shooting jpegs,then setting the custom white balance is critical. You need to read your camera's user manual and follow the directions. It will take a few times to get it figured out, but this discipline is what distinguishes a photographer from a snapshooter. Prior to spending the $100 on an Expodisc (which I've owned and thought worked OK), try a 2-cent white coffee filter. I recently read some testing that shows little difference in results between them.

If you are shooting RAW, then learn to work the white balance in your software.

Increasing the exposure will help, but make sure you can still capture the action. The AUD is lighted miserably. Is the Clinton team still known as the Comets?

M

Thanks, I guess I'll just have to dig a little deeper and read the manual, which I hate doing. I learn more when I'm shown.

Actually, the Aud is lit up nicely compared to the Arena. The Clinton Arena is like a cave. Dimly lit, dark walls, all make for an unpleasant venue for photographers.

The Comets used to be the professional team out of Clinton. They are no longer. I shoot the high school varsity hockey team. They are called the Warriors.

Where are you from?

aktse

I know that I've post this before in one of your threads -- it still applies and it's worth another read.

For hockey photos (and all photos in general), it's all about getting the correct exposure in camera for that specific frame. For ice hockey, the white balance is one of the keys.

Shark wrote:

Thanks everybody. I have gone to +1 on the exposure, but I have always had a hard time figuring out how to set the custom white balance.

I hate to ask -- have you read the manual? Page. 72. When in doubt, read.

In general, take a white balance reference frame (WB tool is best, read the linkies in my post and in this thread, use the ice in a pinch) using the exposure settings that you will be using, go in the camera menu, tell the camera to use that frame for CWB, and then set the WB on the camera to custom.

There are few caveats -- the lights might cycle, you need wait until the lights have gone to full temp, the light changes depending on where you are standing, and you're shooting through.

People in this thread and other threads have given you good advice. good luck.

ian408

While it's generally OK to post someone's picture, proper attribution should be made.

Since these are in the same gallery as yours, I've changed those to links.

Shark

aktse wrote:

I hate to ask -- have you read the manual? Page. 72. When in doubt, read.

I never read it from front to back. I just don't absorb anything that way. I wish I did. I'm better off being shown how something is done, rather than reading how to do it. When I first tried to do a custom white balance, it confused me, but I guess I'll have to try it again.
Thanks.

Miguel Delinquento

I totally understand; we learn via all different kinds of inputs.

Last year I was leading a team of photographers covering a huge week-long event with miserably mixed lighting. Jpeg-only was the requirement which meant that everyone had to develop a custom white-balance profile for each venue.

I ended up having to give a impromptu hands on training on how to do this. The challenge was that there were at least three camera brands represented. While the technique was very similar, the buttons, terminology, and sequences were different enough to cause minor chaos. It was pretty funny actually and we got the job done without anyone looking too yellow.

All I can say is practice practice practice. Osmosis happens.


BTW, I grew up in the Valley way back in the last century when they were making typewriters and pantaloons.

M

Shark wrote:

I never read it from front to back. I just don't absorb anything that way. I wish I did. I'm better off being shown how something is done, rather than reading how to do it. When I first tried to do a custom white balance, it confused me, but I guess I'll have to try it again.
Thanks.

BradfordBenn

I will say that I am no where as advanced as some of the other suggestions, but one of the things I did that made a huge difference in my results was simply shooting RAW instead of JPG. It gives me a chance to fix some of the mistakes I have made.

Just from some suggestions from aktse and looking at the photos, I was able to take this image
to fairly quickly.

ian408

Hey Shark, Canon has a Digital Learning site that I think you might find of some use. You can find it here. I hope it is of some help to you.


Ian

Shark

ian408 wrote:

Hey Shark, Canon has a Digital Learning site that I think you might find of some use. You can find it here. I hope it is of some help to you.


Ian

Thanks Ian, I will check that out.

Shark

These photos were taken at a game the other night. I tried to do the custom balance. I took a shot of the ice before the game and I used that as the custom white balance. And as much as I think the games photos came out better overall, there still seems to be something missing. I shot the game at +2 EC, with my 70-200mm 2.8 lens. I did most of the game at 1600-2500 ISO. These are straight off the camera, with no editing. The first two are ok, and with a little editing, they will end up not so bad. But take a look at the last two, and the faces are dark again, like in previous games. I wonder if this could be because I was at +2 EC? The first two photos are at 1600 ISO, and the last two are at 2000 ISO. The first two have shutter speeds around 500 - 640, while the last two were at 1250 and 1600Any ideas? Does anybody think these are on a path to getting better than the first shots I started this thread with? Is doing a custom white balance off the ice a good idea? Why is it that I read to use a gray card to do a custom white balance shot? That doesn't make sense to me.

adbsgicom

As has been noted by those wiser than myself, the lighting in these places change by where in the AC cycle they are. So at really high speeds, you can easily grab a dark period of the 60-Hz cycle. For even light 1/120 is really all the faster you can go if you are relying on the main lights.

I saw a discussion on this in a gymnastics thread under sports when I was lurking over there one day... I'll see if I can find it.

adbsgicom

adbsgicom wrote:

As has been noted by those wiser than myself, the lighting in these places change by where in the AC cycle they are. So at really high speeds, you can easily grab a dark period of the 60-Hz cycle. For even light 1/120 is really all the faster you can go if you are relying on the main lights.

I saw a discussion on this in a gymnastics thread under sports when I was lurking over there one day... I'll see if I can find it.

Found it. It was in Technique...
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=151212

pathfinder

Shark wrote:

These photos were taken at a game the other night. I tried to do the custom balance. I took a shot of the ice before the game and I used that as the custom white balance. And as much as I think the games photos came out better overall, there still seems to be something missing. I shot the game at +2 EC, with my 70-200mm 2.8 lens. I did most of the game at 1600-2500 ISO. These are straight off the camera, with no editing. The first two are ok, and with a little editing, they will end up not so bad. But take a look at the last two, and the faces are dark again, like in previous games. I wonder if this could be because I was at +2 EC? The first two photos are at 1600 ISO, and the last two are at 2000 ISO. The first two have shutter speeds around 500 - 640, while the last two were at 1250 and 1600Any ideas? Does anybody think these are on a path to getting better than the first shots I started this thread with? Is doing a custom white balance off the ice a good idea? Why is it that I read to use a gray card to do a custom white balance shot? That doesn't make sense to me.

These are still significantly under-exposed - that is some of the reason the faces are dark, also they are in shadow.

How do I know these are under exposed? The white backboard barely reads 190,190,190. Even the brighter parts of the helmets barely get close to 220,220,220. These are gray tones, not white ones.

The images are still under exposed by at least 1/2 to 2/3 of a full fstop.

if you want faces in the shadows exposed correctly, you will have to consider blowing some of the white out of gamut. The shadow tones will be at least 2 stops darker than the lit areas.

The color balance is looking better, but color is affected by under exposure, so that is the first task. This under exposure could be improved in Photoshop or ACR of course.

The manual for my Canon camera says to use a white, but non-specular, surface for a custom white balance. Grey cards were originally designed for using reflected light meters, not for color temperature meters.
Truth is I rather like the Lastolite grey non specular reflector I purchased from BalanceSmarter.com for custom white balance and for correct exposure settings as well

granite.thunder

Maybe you can now try metering to the center. Center weighted. Good job nonetheless.

BradfordBenn

Agree that it is under exposed. I also think that going to a longer exposure will help with the lighting cycle, but of course that is the exact opposite of the speed needed for hockey. The way I have counteracted this at times for my hockey shots is to look at the tone of the ice and dasherboards and basically having different White Balance correction set in my post processing routine for each of the typical three tones I get.

Also for the angle you are shooting at, it is going to be difficult to get as crisp of a face in general for hockey from what I have seen. I am not an expert on this portion, but I would say that getting lower to the ice, not closer, lower. It will have a little more depth than just having the white of the ice behind the skater.

Aktse's post has really good information and having looked at many of her photos, and followed her advice, it has made a big difference.

jpex8

Hey! Those are my photos!
Mark -

Why are you posting my images on this site without permission? Holy smokes!

Look, if you've got a question about something just ask. Some of your post is inaccurate. I shoot more bodies on any given day than a 40 or 50D. In fact the 50D was riddled with problems IMHO.

Thanks for the indirect compliments. I work very hard at what I do, but would appreciate the courtesy of knowing that your posting, then linking my work. Come on! I've know you for a while and would give you the same respect.

I believe your action permits an observation. You seem to place a ton of emphasis on equipment. As a wise professional once told me, quality images are a blend of 80% photographer, 10% gear. Despite the advent of the digital age, I believe that holds true today.

If you ever wanna sit down and drink a Heineken or two and shoot the breeze like we used to, I'm game.

ian408

jpex8, you want these removed?